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Vice Presidential Debate Thread [W:479]

Your Star said:
I don't believe we can win the ground war, it is futile, the war on terror was waged all wrong. It should have been waged by taking out the individuals that pose a serious threat, not invade, and occupy nations, and give them a battle ground, and the terrorists best recruitment tool.

I believe that we shouldn't try to rebuild a country that would cost us too much, in lives, and treasure to rebuild.
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Just so I know we're on the same page, are you saying ground war as in COIN/nation building or just pure combat? If you are talking pure combat, there is no question that we can win that. If you're talking COIN/nation building, I'd tend to agree with you. Politicians don't want to go all in and allow us to fight over the border in Pakistan. They won't take the reigns off of us and allow us to practice maneuver warfare as it's supposed to be practiced. We still win the VAST majority of engagements, but it could be more lopsided. This war is being looked at through a more politically tinted lens than victory tinted lens. Until that stops, in all wars, we'll continue to see these long drawn out campaigns that lead to nothing and have no distinct end state.
 
MarineTpartier said:
Just so I know we're on the same page, are you saying ground war as in COIN/nation building or just pure combat? If you are talking pure combat, there is no question that we can win that. If you're talking COIN/nation building, I'd tend to agree with you. Politicians don't want to go all in and allow us to fight over the border in Pakistan. They won't take the reigns off of us and allow us to practice maneuver warfare as it's supposed to be practiced. We still win the VAST majority of engagements, but it could be more lopsided. This war is being looked at through a more politically tinted lens than victory tinted lens. Until that stops, in all wars, we'll continue to see these long drawn out campaigns that lead to nothing and have no distinct end state.
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your description echoes the malaise of vietnam
another political war the military was not allowed to win
 
justabubba said:
your description echoes the malaise of vietnam
another political war the military was not allowed to win
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Well put. I won't get into it too deep as this isn't the thread for it. But when it takes 4 levels of clearance to shoot 1 GPS guided projectile from a 5th order survey capable field howitzer, we may be a little too cautious to say the least.
 
Kandahar said:
They aren't in Afghanistan anymore, so we've done all we can do there.



Uhh we have 68,000 troops in Afghanistan. Compared to 50-100 al-Qaeda dudes. We have no reason to continue to stay in Afghanistan...none whatsoever.
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Um, have you forgotten the Taliban?
 
Your Star said:
I don't believe we can win the ground war, it is futile, the war on terror was waged all wrong. It should have been waged by taking out the individuals that pose a serious threat, not invade, and occupy nations, and give them a battle ground, and the terrorists best recruitment tool.

I believe that we shouldn't try to rebuild a country that would cost us too much, in lives, and treasure to rebuild.
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Just as the Phoenix program should have been continued in the Nam instead of "destroying villages to save them"
 
Amigo said:
Um, have you forgotten the Taliban?
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The Taliban are Afghanistan's problem, not ours. There are plenty of nasty militant groups all around the world; we can't fight them all nor should we try. The reason we went into Afghanistan in the first place has been accomplished: Bin Laden is dead and al-Qaeda is defeated in Afghanistan. We've done all we can do; Afghan politics and Afghanistan's local miscreants should not be the concern of the United States.
 
MarineTpartier said:
Just so I know we're on the same page, are you saying ground war as in COIN/nation building or just pure combat? If you are talking pure combat, there is no question that we can win that. If you're talking COIN/nation building, I'd tend to agree with you. Politicians don't want to go all in and allow us to fight over the border in Pakistan. They won't take the reigns off of us and allow us to practice maneuver warfare as it's supposed to be practiced. We still win the VAST majority of engagements, but it could be more lopsided. This war is being looked at through a more politically tinted lens than victory tinted lens. Until that stops, in all wars, we'll continue to see these long drawn out campaigns that lead to nothing and have no distinct end state.
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I'm obviously talking about the nation building, that was a lost cause from the start.
 
Your Star said:
I'm obviously talking about the nation building, that was a lost cause from the start.
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Dang Star. Try to be polite and debate you and you're still rude to me. You can't hate me that bad can you?:cool: I agree it was a lost cause though.
 
Kandahar said:
The Taliban are Afghanistan's problem, not ours. There are plenty of nasty militant groups all around the world; we can't fight them all nor should we try. The reason we went into Afghanistan in the first place has been accomplished: Bin Laden is dead and al-Qaeda is defeated in Afghanistan. We've done all we can do; Afghan politics and Afghanistan's local miscreants should not be the concern of the United States.
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Concur my friend. I would have had a great deal of respect for President Obama if he would have told Karzai, "Alright bro, we got him. See ya when I see ya." and pulled every single American out of that friggin ash tray. Nation building involves said nation actually wanting to build. Iraq wanted to build. We (US and Iraqis) built. Afghanistan would rather grovel in poverty and sell poppy. I say let 'em have it.
 
MarineTpartier said:
Dang Star. Try to be polite and debate you and you're still rude to me. You can't hate me that bad can you?:cool: I agree it was a lost cause though.
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Um, how am I being rude?
 
ThePlayDrive said:
Biden won on substance and appearance.

I'm LOL'ing at people putting down Biden for his aggressiveness when that was the thing people used to give Romney the auto win last time.
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I think there's a large, obvious difference between being assertive (Romney) and rude (Biden). Biden would be akin to O'Reilly or Matthews always interrupting and rolling his eyes at people they disagree with. Romney wasn't laughing, rolling his eyes, sighing or yelling. There is no comparison between the two.
 
MarineTpartier said:
Well put. I won't get into it too deep as this isn't the thread for it. But when it takes 4 levels of clearance to shoot 1 GPS guided projectile from a 5th order survey capable field howitzer, we may be a little too cautious to say the least.
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With respect, idiotic ROE's =/= COIN.
 
Your Star said:
I'm obviously talking about the nation building, that was a lost cause from the start.
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Good point. Where I live in Japan, for example, it was a complete failure. This place is just utter 3rd world.
 
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