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Why we vote for liars

Mycroft said:
I don't know who this "we" y'all keep talking about is. The only ones I've ever seen vote for liars are the Democrats and their useful liberal idiots.
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You MUST be joking. :shock:
 
tererun said:
Yeah, where is the honest guy. I did not know we had that options.
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One of them didn't get enough support to make it to the primaries. The others don't anything to do with the ****pit of politics.
 
Voters reward lying. They believe the lies and only vote for the guy who is lying. If you had one politician out there being completely open and honest and the other lying and telling people what they wanted to hear the liar would win in this country every time. Politicians know that. Our political system won't change as long as people accept that. Our political system will continue down the road it is on because that is what people respond to. Voter ignorance, not politicians, is the cause for our government. If you put a lying, corrupt morally bankrupt person in an elected office (when if you weren't blind and stupid you would easily see what they are) you can't blame them for being who they are. We put them there.
 
muciti said:
Voters reward lying. They believe the lies and only vote for the guy who is lying. If you had one politician out there being completely open and honest and the other lying and telling people what they wanted to hear the liar would win in this country every time. Politicians know that. Our political system won't change as long as people accept that. Our political system will continue down the road it is on because that is what people respond to. Voter ignorance, not politicians, is the cause for our government. If you put a lying, corrupt morally bankrupt person in an elected office (when if you weren't blind and stupid you would easily see what they are) you can't blame them for being who they are. We put them there.
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The system is broken. It has multiple game-breaking bugs--some of which prevent the necessary debugging.
 
muciti said:
Voters reward lying. They believe the lies and only vote for the guy who is lying. If you had one politician out there being completely open and honest and the other lying and telling people what they wanted to hear the liar would win in this country every time. Politicians know that. Our political system won't change as long as people accept that. Our political system will continue down the road it is on because that is what people respond to. Voter ignorance, not politicians, is the cause for our government. If you put a lying, corrupt morally bankrupt person in an elected office (when if you weren't blind and stupid you would easily see what they are) you can't blame them for being who they are. We put them there.
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I don't know if I agree with that. I think it would be a breath of fresh air for a LOT of people if there was such a thing as an honest politician. To be frank, I think that lying just goes along with the job. Even if a politician was to start off honest, it's only a matter of time before he/she becomes corrupted too.
 
Obama's 2008 primary campaign pledge was to eliminate the Bush tax cuts - which he could have done literally by doing nothing - and his Democrat House and Senate could have reinstated those cuts for the middle class. Instead, he not only signed but even endorsed renews the Bush tax cuts including for the rich. YET everyone believes him saying the same thing this time - knowing that last time it was a 100% lie.

Obama could have closed Gitmo by executive order his first day in office being commander-in-chief, but that was a total lie too. Now, again, he promises to do so after the election.

Everything he said about subsides and bailouts to Banks and Corporations in 2008 was a lie - but people believe him when he promises the same again in 2012.

He now rants against tax breaks to big oil, yet he did exactly nothing to eliminate them. Still, people believe him when he says he will do the exact opposite in the future from what he actually did in the past.

None of that means Romney tells the truth of course, but Obama really is factually in no position to call anyone a liar in terms of campaign promises.

People believe it because 1.) most are stupid in the sense of knowing any details about government and 2.) since they ALL lie people have no choice but to select between liars. Instead, people HOPE that within all those lies they have some clue of the core nature of the 2 candidates. There is nothing else voters can do.
 
Simon W. Moon said:
The system is broken. It has multiple game-breaking bugs--some of which prevent the necessary debugging.
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There are no game breaking bugs that people cannot overcome if they united and wanted to. But our politicians know that and they keep us fighting each other. They have half of us pissed at half of them and the other half defending them. And vice versa. We are puppets. United we stand, divided we fall. Take a look at our politics in this country, not just amongst the politicians but among the people.
 
ChrisL said:
I don't know if I agree with that. I think it would be a breath of fresh air for a LOT of people if there was such a thing as an honest politician. To be frank, I think that lying just goes along with the job. Even if a politician was to start off honest, it's only a matter of time before he/she becomes corrupted too.
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It may be a breath of fresh air to you, but look at the general public as a whole. Look at how voters as a whole believe what they hear. Lying works. It is proven.
 
joko104 said:
Obama's 2008 primary campaign pledge was to eliminate the Bush tax cuts - which he could have done literally by doing nothing - and his Democrat House and Senate could have reinstated those cuts for the middle class. Instead, he not only signed but even endorsed renews the Bush tax cuts including for the rich. YET everyone believes him saying the same thing this time - knowing that last time it was a 100% lie.

Obama could have closed Gitmo by executive order his first day in office being commander-in-chief, but that was a total lie too. Now, again, he promises to do so after the election.

Everything he said about subsides and bailouts to Banks and Corporations in 2008 was a lie - but people believe him when he promises the same again in 2012.

He now rants against tax breaks to big oil, yet he did exactly nothing to eliminate them. Still, people believe him when he says he will do the exact opposite in the future from what he actually did in the past.

None of that means Romney tells the truth of course, but Obama really is factually in no position to call anyone a liar in terms of campaign promises.

People believe it because 1.) most are stupid in the sense of knowing any details about government and 2.) since they ALL lie people have no choice but to select between liars. Instead, people HOPE that within all those lies they have some clue of the core nature of the 2 candidates. There is nothing else voters can do.
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Really, what changes from one party being in power or the other? Nothing much ever changes, and if changes do occur they are usually not the kind of changes that we need or want. It is so discouraging.
 
muciti said:
There are no game breaking bugs that people cannot overcome if they united and wanted to. But our politicians know that and they keep us fighting each other. They have half of us pissed at half of them and the other half defending them. And vice versa. We are puppets. United we stand, divided we fall. Take a look at our politics in this country, not just amongst the politicians but among the people.
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I couldn't agree more with this post. One of the reasons why I don't participate much in the "election" threads.
 
muciti said:
There are no game breaking bugs that people cannot overcome if they united and wanted to. But our politicians know that and they keep us fighting each other. They have half of us pissed at half of them and the other half defending them. And vice versa. We are puppets. United we stand, divided we fall. Take a look at our politics in this country, not just amongst the politicians but among the people.
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Afaict, you're describing one of the bugs which prevent debugging.
 
joko104 said:
Obama's 2008 primary campaign pledge was to eliminate the Bush tax cuts - which he could have done literally by doing nothing - and his Democrat House and Senate could have reinstated those cuts for the middle class. Instead, he not only signed but even endorsed renews the Bush tax cuts including for the rich. YET everyone believes him saying the same thing this time - knowing that last time it was a 100% lie.

Obama could have closed Gitmo by executive order his first day in office being commander-in-chief, but that was a total lie too. Now, again, he promises to do so after the election.

Everything he said about subsides and bailouts to Banks and Corporations in 2008 was a lie - but people believe him when he promises the same again in 2012.

He now rants against tax breaks to big oil, yet he did exactly nothing to eliminate them. Still, people believe him when he says he will do the exact opposite in the future from what he actually did in the past.

None of that means Romney tells the truth of course, but Obama really is factually in no position to call anyone a liar in terms of campaign promises.

People believe it because 1.) most are stupid in the sense of knowing any details about government and 2.) since they ALL lie people have no choice but to select between liars. Instead, people HOPE that within all those lies they have some clue of the core nature of the 2 candidates. There is nothing else voters can do.
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I agree with all of that. Closing Gitmo would have been a bit more complicated than a simple Executive Order, but it still could have been done.
 
We have insufficient incentive to find out what's really going on. After all how much impact is our one vote likely to have?
There's no one who has an interest in the voters knowing what's going on.
There're plenty organized groups who have vested interests in keeping voters ignorant and/or mis-informed or only informed about certain facts which benefit the informer. Political parties themselves are in that category.
Members of political parties have greater incentives to benefit their party than they do to benefit the country. Benefiting the country is seen as a means to the ends of benefiting the party.

There's not any major group which is rewarded for the electorate being informed--not even the electorate ourselves. We are rewarded for holding opinions which give us benefits w/in our social environment, not for spending hours or days researching complex subjects outside of our fields of expertise.
 
I think there is a difference between lying and changing one's position to suit their audience. There have been numerous times that the romney campaign has had to walk back some comment Mitt said to in some interviewerd or debate comment. Even better, is his fantasy statement that he has been steady and consistent.

here's a sample of flips. It is all well and good to change ones position, but one would think that a 60+ year old man would have formulated a considerable number of positions from his life experience that would not miraculously change on a whim or a poll.


List of Mitt Romney Flip Flops | Liberals Unite



“I believe that since Roe v. Wade has been the law for 20 years we should sustain and support it.” Source
“Roe v. Wade has gone too far.” Source

“I don’t line up with the NRA.” Source
“I’m a member of the [NRA].” Source

“I like mandates. The mandates work.” Source
“I think it’s unconstitutional on the 10th Amendment front.” Source

“I respect and will protect a woman’s right to choose.” Source
“I never really called myself pro-choice.” Source

“I saw my father march with Martin Luther King.” Source
“I did not see it with my own eyes.” Source

“I supported the assault weapon ban.” Source
“I don’t support any gun control legislation.” Source

“I think the minimum wage ought to keep pace with inflation.” Source
“There’s no question raising the minimum wage excessively causes a loss of jobs.” Source

“I will work and fight for stem cell research.” Source
“In the end, I became persuaded that the stem-cell debate was grounded in a false premise.” Source

“I would like to have campaign spending limits.” Source
“The American people should be free to advocate for their candidates and their positions without burdensome limitations.” Source

“I’m a strong believer in stating your position and not wavering.” Source
“I changed my position.” Source

“Detroit needs a turnaround, not a check.” Source
“I’ll take a lot of credit for the fact that this industry’s come back.” Source

“I’m not in favor of privatizing Social Security or making cuts.” Source
“Social Security’s the easiest and that’s because you can give people a personal account.” Source

“I’m not trying to return to Reagan-Bush.” Source
“Ronald Reagan is… my hero.” Source

“I’ve been a hunter pretty much all my life.” Source
“Any description of my being a hunter is an overstatement of capability.” Source

“If Massachusetts succeeds in implementing it, then that will be a model for the nation.” Source
“What works in one state may not be the answer for another.” Source

“It was not my desire to go off and serve in Vietnam.” Source
“I longed in many respects to actually be in Vietnam and be representing our country there.” Source

“It’s a tax cut for fat cats.” Source
“I believe the tax on capital gains should be zero.” Source

“It’s not worth moving heaven and earth spending billions of dollars just trying to catch one person.” Source
“He’s going to pay, and he will die.” Source

“Relative to the leading candidates, some people see me as being more conservative.” Source
“I’m not the most conservative candidate.” “I’m not the most conservative candidate.” Source

“The TARP program… was nevertheless necessary to keep banks from collapsing in a cascade of failures.” Source
“When government is… bailing out banks… we have every good reason to be alarmed.” Source

“These carbon emission limits will provide real and immediate progress.” Source
“Republicans should never abandon pro-growth conservative principles in an effort to embrace the ideas of Al Gore.” Source
 
Because despite our tech advances we are still a tribal culture and nobody wants to be tribe-less. However, our political tribes aren't so much about what our tribe stands for but not being a part of the other tribe. A somewhat sophisticated false dichotomy of if you're not in our tribe then you're a "libtard" or "tea bagger". Very few have the common sense to not give them what they crave most.

Most of us are much like Earl the Bruce in Braveheart... We betray our own interests and our neighbors interest because we believe we have some interests in the status quo
 
You have to hope the "Mitt Romney is a Liar" strategy continues. While slightly better than the "Mitt Romney hates Big Bird" strategy, and Obama's counterterrorism strategy in Libya, it's still a big loser.
 
joko104 said:
Obama's 2008 primary campaign pledge was to eliminate the Bush tax cuts - which he could have done literally by doing nothing - and his Democrat House and Senate could have reinstated those cuts for the middle class. Instead, he not only signed but even endorsed renews the Bush tax cuts including for the rich. YET everyone believes him saying the same thing this time - knowing that last time it was a 100% lie.
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That's a bit of an oversimplification. If Obama had allowed the tax cuts to expire there is no guarantee that the Republicans would have allowed the middle class tax cuts to be reinstated without the top tax cuts. In fact Dems recently tried to do just that and Republicans blocked them. That's a very dangerous game when the economy is just coming out of a huge recession, and the Republicans have shown a willingness to crash the economy to thumb their noses at Obama.

Obama could have closed Gitmo by executive order his first day in office being commander-in-chief, but that was a total lie too. Now, again, he promises to do so after the election.
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The only way he could have done that is if he simply released all of the prisoners, which was not really an option as we know that some of them are dangerous.
 
Taylor said:
You have to hope the "Mitt Romney is a Liar" strategy continues.
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It will as there is absolutely no indication that Romney will ever start telling the truth.
 
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