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Who won the debate tonight?

Who won?


  • Total voters
    118
Romney won, mainly due to being more upbeat, not because of anything he said. I don't think this will give him a big bump, and I think the polls will continue to trend Obama's way.

Late to the thread, but adding my :twocents: worth nonetheless...

If you're judging the winner based on how aggressive (not to mention rude) your candidate was, then Romney won. Even I will admit that Romney stayed on offense throughout most of the debate.

If you're judging the winner based on who providing details of his plans and policies, then Obama won. However, I would agree with those who have said that the President didn't bring the energy and he didn't attack Romney forcefully enough, specifically, on his tax policy or what he'd replace ObamaCare and Dodd-Frank with if repealed. The interesting thing here is while Romney admits to liking certain provisions within ObamaCare (i.e., eliminating pre-existing conditions, retaining young adults on their parent's insurance plan through age 26 and allowing states to implement health care initiatives), he'd still fight to repeal the law while never providing specifics on how his version of health care reform would work other than throwing health care and health insurance responsibilities back to the states. But this is one of many reasons why insurance markets are broken within several states.

For example, on his Health Care website, Romney says he'd "prevent discrimination against individuals with pre-existing conditions who maintain continuous coverage". Apparently, he's unaware that state high risk pools are extremely expensive. But the big kicker is that last bit "...who maintain continuous coverage". If this was in reference to people w/pre-existing conditions finding affordable health insurance on the open market, they can forget about it since private insurance companies will just go back to denying these people coverage and their only recourse would be to get insurance from their respective states from their high risk pool, if offerred at all. As such, he'll never be able to convince states to open their borders and compete across state lines not over pre-existing conditions provisions and certainly not over general health insurance policies. Why? State's Rights! States are very territorial; unless the fed steps in and forces them to open up interstate commerce avenues where the health insurance market is concerned, they will be very reluctant to "share their turf" with another state.

On bank/finance reform, it was interesting to hear Romney be critical of Dodd-Frank classifying five banks as "too big to fail" yet say absolutely nothing about consumer protections. Of course, why would he when his focus was on how bank finance reform alledgedly hampers financial creativity? (Okay, he didn't use those words but that's what he was eluding to since he tied Dodd-Frank to the economy). But wait! The Dow is back up to pre-economic collapse levels, banks are more solvent now than they were 4 years ago and the economy is growing. So, if Romney believes that regulations are necessary and that smart regulations are effective, why is he insisting on repealing Dodd-Frank?

Romney was quick to remind the viewers that $5-7 million in tax cuts isn't his plan and I agree. For his plan isn't a long-term tax plan except if you assume that what he's currently proposing he'd extend beyond 2015. According to Factcheck.org, only one independent economist, Harvey Rosen of Princeton University concluded that Romney "could pull off his tax plan without losing revenue assuming an extra 3 percent 'growth effect' to the economy resulting from Romney’s rate cuts. That’s an extremely aggressive assumption, and in conflict with recent experience." Now, think about what his tax plan would really mean to the middle-class...

He's reduce the marginal tax rate for all by 20% which means that high wage earners who currently pay at a federal tax rate of 35% would pay only 15%; low wage earners who pay a federal tax rate of 25% would pay 5%. Sounds good except he'd also eliminate the estate tax, repeal the ATM and keep tax rates on interest, dividends and capital gains the same. He claims he'd eliminate these taxes for those individuals whose Adjusted Gross Income is less than $200K, but all that means is you'd have to earn more than $200K first in order to claim this tax benefit. That eliminates well over half the country from being able to claim this benefit. Now, some would say the middle-class paying a mere 5% in federal income taxes would be a God-Send, and it would be except unless you earn over $200K and have enough exemptions to get to that $200K AGI level, you likely won't get any other tax deductions under the Romney tax plan. In other words, unless middle-class wages increase substantially, a 5% federal tax rate won't mean much despite being able to keep more of what you earn.

On Romney's energy plan, there's really nothing different about it; it mirrors Obamas very closely. The only hits on the President were Solyndra, clean coal and the KeystoneXL Pipeline. Despite Solydra's failue, there have been several success stories in the solar panel manufacturing industry. Clean coal remains an important part of domestic energy reform moreso for environmental reasons, and the lower-half of the KeystoneXL pipeline has been approved for construction. I suspect, however, that the Pres. will keep his promise to go forward with approving construction of the upper-half later this year should he win re-election. So, other than a few jabs here or there, I really didn't see a difference between Romney's energy plan and that which Pres. Obama has been advocating from Day-1.

So, again if you based the winner of this first debate on who was more aggressive, Romney won. But if you base it on who provided the more comprehensive details on his reform measures and how they've helped many of this nation's citizens and will do so in the future, then Pres. Obama won.
 
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Romney blamed Big Bird for the debt in the debate.

Don't believe me? Ask your fellow lower-middle class right wing posters here whether they actually believe Sesame Street is among the biggest factors in the debt--as Romney suggested, and they will all say "Yes!"

That's a pretty select group - "lower-middle class right wing posters." I don't think you'll have much response from that group. Most of us right wingers are hard working middle class folks that pay taxes so you Libertarians don't have to. For the record though, no; I don't think "Sesame Street" (sic-the reference was actually "Big Bird' and PBS) is going to break the bank. Romney used the comment as symbolism for all the waste that is going on subsidizing institutions that should be survive or die on their own merits. Certainly a Libertarian could identify with that.
 
That's a pretty select group - "lower-middle class right wing posters."

It's the bulk of romney's voting base.

I don't think you'll have much response from that group.

Yes we will--they're going to be jumping up and down like trained monkeys screaming "libdems and their stupid Big Bird are bankrupting America.", because that's what one of their pols said, so in their minds, it's Biblical truth.

Most of us right wingers are hard working middle class folks that pay taxes so you Libertarians don't have to. For the record though, no; I don't think "Sesame Street" (sic-the reference was actually "Big Bird' and PBS) is going to break the bank.

Of course you do. One of your pols said it.

Romney used the comment as symbolism for all the waste that is going on subsidizing institutions that should be survive or die on their own merits. Certainly a Libertarian could identify with that.

The only thing any sensible Libertarian could identify--based on romney's comment--is that he's as big of an idiot as we originally thought. His choice of PBS as a symbol of government waste is totally absurd, considering the vastly larger examples of waste occuring elsewhere, i. e.

A multibillion-dollar information-sharing program created in the aftermath of 9/11 has improperly collected information about innocent Americans and produced little valuable intelligence on terrorism, a Senate report concludes. It portrays an effort that ballooned far beyond anyone's ability to control.

Post-9/11 effort gathered intel on citizens, not terrorists | Politics | The Seattle Times

Very likely romney's GOP brethren in Congress are big fans of the above program; after all, it's not wasteful like Big Bird :rolleyes:
 
Very likely romney's GOP brethren in Congress are big fans of the above program; after all, it's not wasteful like Big Bird :rolleyes:

I agree. This sounds like a government program that has gone astray. Interesting that in spite of the obvious overreaching and spending that is going on investigating private citizens at the state level, Nopolitano decided to double down on this effort on behalf of the current administration. Is it just coincidence that her friends in her home state of Arizona are now driving around in two new Chevy Tahoes paid for by our tax dollars?

I do, however, believe that the post 9/11 reforms put in place by Bush at the federal level, including getting the CIA, FBI, NSC, etc. communicating with each other, were important. Janet Reno and Clinton screwed that up enough so we couldn't connect the dots when terrorists were taking flight training and managed to board planes with box cutters in their pockets.
 
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