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Will the Debate Produce a Game Change?

Will the Debates Produce a Game Change?

  • The Presidential debates will produce a game changing moment

    Votes: 13 28.3%
  • The VP debate will change the game

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The debates will have no effect on the outcome

    Votes: 23 50.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 10 21.7%

  • Total voters
    46
  • Poll closed .
Fire up the popcorn and chill the beer. Looking forward to the debate, but not the traffic, as will be held at University of Denver, about 5 miles from my home.
Good Luck with that...

Just one Obama appearance at Symphony Hall fundraising and stumping for Elizabeth Warren got me stuck on a city bus for nearly 40 mins, almost to the point where my daughter was ready to pee her pants after drinking water all day at summer camp... Thankfully the bus driver floored it once we passed it... and she fell asleep once the bus got moving again...

I know they like the setting of universities... but large convention halls are better suited for the traffic and flow of large masses of people suddenly into these areas... idk why they don't hold em in more appropriate places...
 
CEOs are "monarchs" though.

They command, they don't compromise.

So its not a foregone conclusion that he would make a good presjdent.

Besides, a HUGE part of the presidents job is to inspire and reassure.

And Romneys a cold fish. He just seems like he's pretending to be a normal guy and at any moment he'll release the hounds.

Wrong, not all CEOs are monarchs... in many companies, including Bain, the CEO is actually beholden to the business partners for action... So in order to move things along, you have to influence the partners to go along with it...

It is this particular model that Romney brought to Bain... and they used this approach in their business negotiations... Which is what set them apart in their industry... They didn't just buy and sell companies... they got involved with them, and impressed new models of business on them... which turned success within those companies...

It's also the approach Romney used when he went back to Bain & Co, to rescue them from collapse in the recession of the early 90s... and it worked... He had to go around the world getting the different satellites to buy into the new course of action...


You also seem to leave off Romney's experience as head of the Salt Lake City Games... and as Governor of MA, with an 85% opposition party legislature... Romney had to work with them to get things accomplished... he brought together Democrats, Republicans, Independents, outside agencies, private-public partnerships, etc. into the policy crafting, in order to come up with a collaborative approach that people could all support...

Therefore, it makes Romney far better suited to negotiate deals through the Congress...
 
I voted Other because it could produce a game changer. Some of these debates do, some don't.

Obama needs one, Romney just needs to be shown as holding his own against Obama.
 
The debates will obviously have an impact... especially in such a tight race. One simply needs to look at past elections to see that.

Although I'm a conservative, I'd say the odds are about 75/25 to Obama right now. Obama is a better debater than Romney, and he's going in with a slight lead to begin with.
 
Thats not my point.

We live in a democracy. A VERY divided democracy, at this point in time.

A CEO is a dictator. His word is law in a corporate setting. (Theres a board, but he doesnt have to consider EVERYBODY in the company).

So his ability to compromise and bring everybody together may not be particularly developed.

So he may not have what it takes to be a good president.

First off... you completely mistate Romney's role in business... He did not go around dictating policy to people... He didn't rise throught he corporate ladder in practically no time by yelling at people and telling them what to do...

Romney's business approach is collaborative, data driven, and results oriented... He goes around getting people to buy in before taking action... It was how he grew up under Boston Consulting... It was how he thrived under Bain & Co... and its the particular business approach he installed at Bain Capital... And its the style that continues today... The CEO at Bain Capital is beholden to the partners... and must get them to agree to everything before it goes forward...

Secondly, you completely discount his entire time as Governor... where he worked with an 85% opposition party legislature... in the executive role within the state whose constitution became the model that the US Constitution was fomed to look like...

Lastly... We don't live in a Democracy... We live in a democratically elected representative republic... learn it... We are a Republic... The Republic of the United States of America... In a republic, there are those few elite who are meant to govern... and the people in Washington are meant to be those people... In this Republic we chose to have a strong chief executive, who has limits on his power and authority... but is also charged with leading the country and taking steps when necessary to take emergency action in order to do what they see as best... That takes a certain type of decisive personality... one that reflects the guile of most CEOs... not the life long talker, lawyer, community organizer types... who constantly look to gather people and impress them with speeches... Sometimes it requires hard action and demanding results... Obama has failed in that capacity... Romney excells in it...
 
I went with "other" most likely not...but it's always a possibility. Maybe if Romney was...I don't know more humanlike it would be a higher possibility.
 
Unless like Mycroft said, someone says something incredibly stupid, I think it won't have much of an effect other than solidifying those already solidly in one camp or the other.


So I'll use the rest of this post to make a debate prediction about Romney...

He will attack the moderator and the media, then spend the bulk of the time in the debate acting as if he is offended or outraged in attempt to put the moderators in a defensive mode AND also to have the added bonus of his side, after the debate, complain that there was clearly a massive bias against him the entire time... because he was so outraged.

That's my prediction... you heard it here first. And after it happens, I expect you all to come back to this forum and sing the praises of Robstradomus.
 
I went with "other" most likely not...but it's always a possibility. Maybe if Romney was...I don't know more humanlike it would be a higher possibility.

LOL. MittBot 2.0 needs a software update for sure. Thing is, he is about the same as Obama based on his record, but he is trying so hard to fake being a conservative.
 
I am not surprised by those who constantly repeat the Democratic koolaid mantra. Y'all know that repetition of inaccurate or spun information tends to be considered truth. However, once again, I feel the need to point out the flaws in your statements.

1. Romney has a lifetime of accomplishments that prove his abilities...much more, in fact, than Obama did when he was elected. Romney has constantly expressed what he will do that is different from what Obama has and wants to do. Your decision not to listen to him, read his website or consider his record doesn't mean all that information is not available. You are wearing blinders and trying to convince people there is nothing to see. Take them off...look around...THEN talk to us.

Romney has a resume that proves he can govern a state over one term; can put on winter olympic games and run an investment banking group. Any other conclusion you draw is simply your conclusion as he has nothing in his resume that says he will be a successful president.

While Romney's current credentials may be superior to those of Obama in 2008, he isn't running against Obama in 2008, instead he is running against a guy that has four years of experience as POTUS. Romney has no such credentials. He is, as I originally stated, simply a candidate for the job. That does not mean he can or can not do the job. We don’t know. He is unproven.

As of today, his direct experience for the job is inferior to the sitting POTUS. It will always be the case that a challenger running against an incumbent unproven with inferior experience as POTUS (Grover Cleveland and Teddy Roosevelt nothwithstanding). That is not an opinion; it is an undisputed fact.

As an unproven candidate, he has to sell his ability to do the job. I appreciate the fact you are sold, but not everyone is.

On the issue of the economy, Romney has not been clear about what he would do. In fact, he has been particularly to deliberately vague. He speaks only of deregulation and tax cuts, but no one really knows what that means. In fact, his website has NO specific mention of how he would fix the economy.

Issues | Mitt Romney for President

This is supposedly the number 1 issue of the election, and you have to piece together things on his website to understand how he would address the matter. No wonder he has not sold his distinguishing factors to the electorate.

It’s not clear what Romney would actually cut to make his budget add up

2. You just got finished saying Romney hasn't said what he will do, but now you say that he has said he wants to do the same things Bush wanted to do. You really need to make up your mind if you want to be considered credible.

No, I said Romney has not sold himself to the general electorate.

Now, contrary to your suggestion, I have been to the Romney website (adn if you read this and followed the above link, you now have as well) and I bet I spend far more time listening to Fox, Rush, Hugh Hewitt, and our local con, Mike Rosen, then you probably ever spent on our side of the tracks. My first comments, though I acknowledge could have been clearer, dealt with Romney's failure to sell himself to the general electorate, not to me. I know what he stands for and I cannot be sold. In spite of the fact that I know where he is coming from, I find him to be obtuse and vague (and occasionally contradictory).

But that is not just my opinion, nor just an opinion from the left, it is an opinion of many observers:

Gingrich: Romney needs to present a "clear alternative" - CBS News

Romney Says Military Action Against Iran May Not Be Necessary - ABC News
Presidential Polls 2012: Romney is in Dire Straits, But Here Are 6 Things He Can Do to Right the Ship

Now, I understand why he needs to be vague. Because the tax cut and deregulation approach is fundamentally what Bush sold us and most attribute to causing the current crisis. Frankly, Romney would have a harder time distinguishing himself from Bush than distinguishing himself from Obama.... and the failure to distinguish himself from Bush is a huge problem for him.

The Washington Monthly

Ryan Can't Explain Romney's Tax Plan - Business Insider

Romney tax plan: Is it 'mathematically impossible' or not? - CSMonitor.com

3. Ahhh...here it is again. Excuse Obama because of what he got handed by Bush. When will you EVER hold Obama responsible for his actions?
Again, you are reading what you want to read, not what was said. I said, "While much of the electorate blames Obama, substantially all of the electorate knows he was handed a very bad hand by Bush." That statement blames no one for the current state of affairs, its just a fact; almost axiomatic. In this instance, I was not saying it was Bush's fault or Obama fault. I said many people blame Obama, but most know he was handed a bad hand. You are free to blame Obama AND know he was handed a bad hand; or you are free to excuse Obama because he was handed a bad hand. My particular representation here did not take either position.

Now, I have whole posts on the particular subject, I was just trying to stay neutral here to fit the rest of my argument.

4. Romney's mouth hasn't been shut...the ears of people like you have been closed.

My ears are hardly closed to Romney. I am very aware of what he is saying overtly and covertly. I just happen to disagree with most of his approach. I find the idea of tax cutting our way into an improved economy is somewhere between nonsense and just flat out wrong (well debated in so many places, including by me), so there is no way I am going to support such silliness.
* * * * * * *

So, we are back to my original assertion: The fatal flaw of the Cons to date is to think you could win the race by telling us Obama is a bad guy. Unfortunately, that is only 1/3 the battle. You must convince us Obama is a bad guy first, then show us what you would do different and then sell your guy as the guy to get the job done. The reason Romney is not winning, is that he has failed miserably at steps two and three. The evidence he is not winning is in the battleground polls, where he is increasingly falling behind.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/2012_elections_electoral_college_map.html
 
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1. Romney has a resume that proves he can govern a state over one term; can put on winter olympic games and run an investment banking group. Any other conclusion you draw is simply your conclusion as he has nothing in his resume that says he will be a successful president.

While Romney's current credentials may be superior to those of Obama in 2008, he isn't running against Obama in 2008, instead he is running against a guy that has four years of experience as POTUS. Romney has no such credentials. He is, as I originally stated, simply a candidate for the job. That does not mean he can or can not do the job. We don’t know. He is unproven.

As of today, his direct experience for the job is inferior to the sitting POTUS. It will always be the case that a challenger running against an incumbent unproven with inferior experience as POTUS (Grover Cleveland and Teddy Roosevelt nothwithstanding). That is not an opinion; it is an undisputed fact.

As an unproven candidate, he has to sell his ability to do the job. I appreciate the fact you are sold, but not everyone is.

2. On the issue of the economy, Romney has not been clear about what he would do. In fact, he has been particularly to deliberately vague. He speaks only of deregulation and tax cuts, but no one really knows what that means. In fact, his website has NO specific mention of how he would fix the economy.

Issues | Mitt Romney for President

This is supposedly the number 1 issue of the election, and you have to piece together things on his website to understand how he would address the matter. No wonder he has not sold his distinguishing factors to the electorate.

It’s not clear what Romney would actually cut to make his budget add up



3. No, I said Romney has not sold himself to the general electorate.

Now, contrary to your suggestion, I have been to the Romney website (adn if you read this and followed the above link, you now have as well) and I bet I spend far more time listening to Fox, Rush, Hugh Hewitt, and our local con, Mike Rosen, then you probably ever spent on our side of the tracks. My first comments, though I acknowledge could have been clearer, dealt with Romney's failure to sell himself to the general electorate, not to me. I know what he stands for and I cannot be sold. In spite of the fact that I know where he is coming from, I find him to be obtuse and vague (and occasionally contradictory).

But that is not just my opinion, nor just an opinion from the left, it is an opinion of many observers:

Gingrich: Romney needs to present a "clear alternative" - CBS News

Romney Says Military Action Against Iran May Not Be Necessary - ABC News
Presidential Polls 2012: Romney is in Dire Straits, But Here Are 6 Things He Can Do to Right the Ship

Now, I understand why he needs to be vague. Because the tax cut and deregulation approach is fundamentally what Bush sold us and most attribute to causing the current crisis. Frankly, Romney would have a harder time distinguishing himself from Bush than distinguishing himself from Obama.... and the failure to distinguish himself from Bush is a huge problem for him.

The Washington Monthly

Ryan Can't Explain Romney's Tax Plan - Business Insider

Romney tax plan: Is it 'mathematically impossible' or not? - CSMonitor.com


4. Again, you are reading what you want to read, not what was said. I said, "While much of the electorate blames Obama, substantially all of the electorate knows he was handed a very bad hand by Bush." That statement blames no one for the current state of affairs, its just a fact; almost axiomatic. In this instance, I was not saying it was Bush's fault or Obama fault. I said many people blame Obama, but most know he was handed a bad hand. You are free to blame Obama AND know he was handed a bad hand; or you are free to excuse Obama because he was handed a bad hand. My particular representation here did not take either position.

Now, I have whole posts on the particular subject, I was just trying to stay neutral here to fit the rest of my argument.



My ears are hardly closed to Romney. I am very aware of what he is saying overtly and covertly. I just happen to disagree with most of his approach. I find the idea of tax cutting our way into an improved economy is somewhere between nonsense and just flat out wrong (well debated in so many places, including by me), so there is no way I am going to support such silliness.
* * * * * * *

5. So, we are back to my original assertion: The fatal flaw of the Cons to date is to think you could win the race by telling us Obama is a bad guy. Unfortunately, that is only 1/3 the battle. You must convince us Obama is a bad guy first, then show us what you would do different and then sell your guy as the guy to get the job done. The reason Romney is not winning, is that he has failed miserably at steps two and three. The evidence he is not winning is in the battleground polls, where he is increasingly falling behind.

RealClearPolitics - 2012 Election Maps - Electoral Map

1. Romney has more...and more varied...experience than the last six Presidents. If any of them were qualified to be President, then he is. And in respect to Obama's four years of experience as President...well, let's just say his record is worse than any of the five before him except, maybe, Carter.

2. Now I know you didn't investigate Romney's position. At the very top of the page you linked is this link: Jobs and Economic Growth | Mitt Romney for President That page says this:

Mitt Romney will rebuild the foundations of the American economy on the principles of free enterprise, hard work, and innovation. His plan seeks to reduce taxes, spending, regulation, and government programs. It seeks to increase trade, energy production, human capital, and labor flexibility. It relinquishes power to the states instead of claiming to have the solution to every problem.

Any American living through this economic crisis will immediately recognize the severity of the break that Mitt Romney proposes from our current course. He is calling for a fundamental change in Washington’s view of how economic growth and prosperity are achieved, how jobs are created, and how government can support these endeavors. It is at once a deeply conservative return to policies that have served our nation well and a highly ambitious departure from the policies of our current leadership. In short, it is a plan to get America back to work.

To learn more about Mitt's plan, select an issue below:

It then goes on to list six areas of discussion, each with very specific actions he will take.

Now, I don't know how much more detail and how much more information you need. I suspect he can never provide enough to get past your blind bias.

3. Actually, what you said was: "you failed to tell us what you are going to do differently". You now know that to be false.

As to the rest of this portion of your quote, I would hardly credit your words when you know nothing of what his position is. As far as those links you provided, let's just say that everyone has an opinion...doesn't make them right, though.

4. I venture to say that those who feel the need to point out how bad a deal Obama was handed do so as a means to excuse him...including you.

5. The battleground polls are bogus. That's been substantiated quite well recently. But you are free to take them to heart. They do, after all, tell you what you want to hear.
 
Ah, pretty much explains why Obama is pulling away: America has suddenly been flooded with radical marxists and socialists.....

The fundamental problem that Romney has in the debate is that he has to open is mouth and say something. To date, every time he has opened his mouth he has either: 1) offended 1/2 of America; 2) said something that he really believes and offended the Cons (who quickly correct him, making him look like a puppet instead of a leader); or 3) said something so radical that titillates the Cons, but scares the middle.

Sorry, but the Romney candidacy has tried to win this thing by knocking down Obama and hoping people just pick him as the only alternative. In trying to implement this strategy, his campaign made two incredible interdependent blunders:

1) The really haven't been able to knock down Obama (the economy, while not great, has some life... with housing finally firming up and the stock market high, people's net worth is fundamentally back to ahead of where it was 4 years ago) and Romney can not stay on an economic message long enough to ever get a knock down; and
2) Even if you do knock Obama down, you are not just going to pick the other guy because he is a warm body. He has to be credible. Though Romney has started with credibility, he has offered no vision of the future (other than tax cuts for the wealthy and war in Iran... just George Bush II doctrine, which most people blame for the mess we are in) and opens his mouth and puts in his foot (the 47% comment , his inconsistent statements).... and Romney doesn't even measure up to the warm body standard as he just isn't very warm.

Barring a major, major turn of events, this party is over..... the debates will be modestly interesting only because Romney has to say something to a national audience.


The debates, especially the first one, will give Romney a slight bounce but not enough to make a difference in November. In order for Romney to get elected IMHO there needs to be a huge October surprise hit that fan that'll make Arnold Schwarzenegger look like Mr. Rodgers.
 
The debates, especially the first one, will give Romney a slight bounce but not enough to make a difference in November. In order for Romney to get elected IMHO there needs to be a huge October surprise hit that fan that'll make Arnold Schwarzenegger look like Mr. Rodgers.

Maybe not that high on a personal note, but it will have to be something like an impending economic crisis or something that somehow makes the President and his Party look like they are acting in bad faith.
 
Obama and his administration are trying to get a pass for Obama saying he has been too busy. That makes me ask what is Obama afraid of?
 
Do you really believe the average progressive has any idea about economics? Obamy is the president and even he doesn't know. The typical progressive mindset is: "I know nothing about economics or anything else but I trust Obama."

Of course in 4 years when the economy is about to implode they will blame Romney for QE3 (which is economic suicide IMO)...

I'm 32 and we wont be economically balanced (if ever) until I'm in my 60's..... If our economy does start getting better we will have a crisis with gold prices plummeting which will certainly factor into any growth. The only possible way to avoid all that is to go back to the gold standard and burn all the excess bills.


LOL, I heard that Bernacki was defending QE3 today. When it implodes I can see all the fingers that are pointing at Bush change direction to pointing at Romney.

We all heard about the tenants who trash an apartment when they get the boot for not paying rent. This smells like Obama trashing the economy even more before he leaves office.
 
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If Obama goes, his chairman of the Federal Reserve stays.
 
If reports are correct, Romney is working on a bunch of one-liners in hopes of landing a zinger. If this is true, I think that Romney is in for a long night. He will come across as completely insincere and scripted which will be the TKO to his campaign. Honestly, where is Romney getting his campaign strategy?
 
The debates, especially the first one, will give Romney a slight bounce but not enough to make a difference in November. In order for Romney to get elected IMHO there needs to be a huge October surprise hit that fan that'll make Arnold Schwarzenegger look like Mr. Rodgers.

There was a huge September surprise. The resurgence of al Qaeda after much campaign boasting by Obama and Biden about the death of bin Laden. The melt down of the Middle East. It doesn't matter without an honest press. If the press ignores it then a significant portion of the electorate will fail to grasp it's significance. Perception is reality and perception in the US is controlled by the news media and entertainment industry. Both are completely in the tank for Obama. Journalists all over the world have been murdered by ruthless governments in order to get the kind of compliance the American press has voluntariy given Obama.
 
Well, most of us were wrong.
 
The problem for Romney, as we saw during the many many many Republican debates.. he is a poor debater plus has zero charisma.
No, from the republican debates we saw that he was a pretty good debator, but pretty bad outside the debates. That is because he did gaffles and is a bad candidate.

So he has to distract away from the charisma flaw.. which means he has to come out guns blazing but not look too desperate. He also has to stick to facts, not GOP facts, but reality facts. And it is on the last part that I suspect Romney will have a serious problem that could easily cost him the election. His 47% comment will come up, and he must have a credible answer/defence to this, and that does not mean doubling down on it.
You were wrong on every single point here. There is a reason why I say Republicans should never take advice from Democrats. Yes, there needs to be changes, but that does not mean listening to Democrats who do not have republican interest in mind.



That [Game change for election] has already happened with Mittens and his 47% rant.
This is strange. I thought you just recently wrote

Romney will win and the last few weeks will see a plethora of attack ads that make the Swift boat ads look like a sunday school picnic. Count on it.

It is funny to go back to "old" comments to see how wrong people can be, despite their certainty at the time.
 
No, from the republican debates we saw that he was a pretty good debator, but pretty bad outside the debates. That is because he did gaffles and is a bad candidate.


You were wrong on every single point here. There is a reason why I say Republicans should never take advice from Democrats. Yes, there needs to be changes, but that does not mean listening to Democrats who do not have republican interest in mind.




This is strange. I thought you just recently wrote



It is funny to go back to "old" comments to see how wrong people can be, despite their certainty at the time.

As I explained to you in a different thread - I did not foresee the absolute abysmal performance that was Mittens with his 47% comment combined with the Eastwood train wreck negating any convention bounce. Based on the reaction from the public, I had to conclude that there was no way back from it and my earlier estimate of a Romney win would be incorrect.

Then came the Obama debate performance and it all change significantly.

I am 63 and have been watching elections since 1960 with JFK and Nixon when I was in the sixth grade. I was a national convention delegate in 72 for McGovern. I would have to say that the opportunity for massive shifts in the public opinion are more evident today than at any time in the last five decades..... and probably ever. The internet, you tube, tweeting, cable TV - its just a whole different ball game now so that when an event happens like the 47% comment or the bad debate by Obama, its a potential game changer.
 
Well, most of us were wrong.

Unfortunately the choices were not mutually exclusive, so therefor the poll was a bit flawed. I believe the game has been changed but the debates; but the outcome will be unaffected. We are in the game. Clearly the game has become more competitive. The outcome, however, is a completely different matter. It is what you get when the game is over. IMHO, the outcome will be the same as before the debates and therefore the debates had no effect on the ultimate outcome.
 
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