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2012 is not comparable to 1980.

Einzige

Elitist as Hell.
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There's been a lot of chatter on the Right that says that this year is directly comparable to 1980, that, like Ronald Reagan, Mitt Romney is going to defeat the modern Jimmy Carter analogue, Barack Obama, in an electoral landslide.

Of course the polls suggest otherwise, they say, because the polls are biased or, like most scientific endeavors, flawed. Jimmy Carter, they say, lead Ronald Reagan right up to the election, and see how well he did in the end?

Former Clinton-turned-Republican pollster Dick Morris says as much here:

But the fact is that the undecided vote always goes against the incumbent. In 1980 (the last time an incumbent Democrat was beaten), for example, the Gallup Poll of October 27th had Carter ahead by 45-39. Their survey on November 2nd showed Reagan catching up and leading by three points. In the actual voting, the Republican won by nine.

Morris could be right - Romney could win. I don't think Obama has it in the bag quite yet. But when he compares this election year to 1980, he's wrong. Or lying.

This is what really happened in 1980.

trialheats1980-1024x744.jpg

What is interesting about the polls in 1980 is that they really weren't that far off the final outcome. Reagan on average led all summer, sometimes by margins of 20 points or more. The spoiler was Independent Republican John Anderson, a third party candidate, who was polling 9-10% in the final polls and who got 7% in the General. Indeed the 'eve of poll' polls were also underestimating Carter. DMI gave him 34% and CSR 36% though they got the actual vote right giving Regan an 11% and a 10% lead

The other respected pollster was Harris who had Reagan up 5 when Gallup only had him up 3. The odd one out was actually Gallup. They had Reagan leading by 1% on 30th October when a clutch of 6 polls had an average lead of 4% (Harris had 5%, DMI had 10%) On 26th October Gallup had Carter 3 points ahead when Harris had Reagan ahead by 3 points.

The pollster that got it right was DMI. It had Reagan up 8% back in mid-October, had him fall back to 7% by late October but had him correctly ahead by 10-11 points in the final push.

Indeed Gallup was the most pro-Carter pollster in that final push. When the 'gold standard' gets it wrong then it's not the gold standard.

For the record, looking at the eve of election polls it appears that Reagan got 2-3 points from declared Anderson voters (who were either going to vote for Reagan all along or genuinely switched) and Carter won about 63% of undecided voters.
 
There's been a lot of chatter on the Right that says that this year is directly comparable to 1980, that, like Ronald Reagan, Mitt Romney is going to defeat the modern Jimmy Carter analogue, Barack Obama, in an electoral landslide.

Of course the polls suggest otherwise, they say, because the polls are biased or, like most scientific endeavors, flawed. Jimmy Carter, they say, lead Ronald Reagan right up to the election, and see how well he did in the end?

Former Clinton-turned-Republican pollster Dick Morris says as much here:



Morris could be right - Romney could win. I don't think Obama has it in the bag quite yet. But when he compares this election year to 1980, he's wrong. Or lying.

This is what really happened in 1980.

View attachment 67135110

What is interesting about the polls in 1980 is that they really weren't that far off the final outcome. Reagan on average led all summer, sometimes by margins of 20 points or more. The spoiler was Independent Republican John Anderson, a third party candidate, who was polling 9-10% in the final polls and who got 7% in the General. Indeed the 'eve of poll' polls were also underestimating Carter. DMI gave him 34% and CSR 36% though they got the actual vote right giving Regan an 11% and a 10% lead

The other respected pollster was Harris who had Reagan up 5 when Gallup only had him up 3. The odd one out was actually Gallup. They had Reagan leading by 1% on 30th October when a clutch of 6 polls had an average lead of 4% (Harris had 5%, DMI had 10%) On 26th October Gallup had Carter 3 points ahead when Harris had Reagan ahead by 3 points.

The pollster that got it right was DMI. It had Reagan up 8% back in mid-October, had him fall back to 7% by late October but had him correctly ahead by 10-11 points in the final push.

Indeed Gallup was the most pro-Carter pollster in that final push. When the 'gold standard' gets it wrong then it's not the gold standard.

For the record, looking at the eve of election polls it appears that Reagan got 2-3 points from declared Anderson voters (who were either going to vote for Reagan all along or genuinely switched) and Carter won about 63% of undecided voters.

If Romney is going to have a chance at winning, he will have to nail, and I mean nail, Debate #1. Without that? Game over.
 
If Romney is going to have a chance at winning, he will have to nail, and I mean nail, Debate #1. Without that? Game over.

I'm not convinced that Romney can win in the way he needs to win. Just presenting factotums, which Romney is okay at, doesn't 'win' debates. I recall the 2008 Republican debates in particular. Romney was the least abnormal person on the stage - and also the one with the least presence.
 
If Romney is going to have a chance at winning, he will have to nail, and I mean nail, Debate #1. Without that? Game over.

i'm not sure the debates will have much bearing on anything...

if they were actual debates, i could see it... but these presidential debates we have just flat out suck.( not to mention they exclude all other candidates)
 
i'm not sure the debates will have much bearing on anything...

if they were actual debates, i could see it... but these presidential debates we have just flat out suck.( not to mention they exclude all other candidates)

They can't really help your candidacy because the questions are mostly so each side can spout talking points without anything really being debated, but they could hurt either of their campaigns if they something really stupid. Like how Rick Perry's huge lead evaporated after he couldn't name the third agency of Congress he'd eliminate.
 
They can't really help your candidacy because the questions are mostly so each side can spout talking points without anything really being debated, but they could hurt either of their campaigns if they something really stupid. Like how Rick Perry's huge lead evaporated after he couldn't name the third agency of Congress he'd eliminate.
... and none of it is good for us voters...at best, we get talking points, at worst, we get gaffes..... mostly we get lies.
 
With a few hundred million in advertising budget, each, the campaigns have already gotten their message out to most people for months now. There is unlikely to be anything new of substance that either is willing to say at this point. It's all out on the field already, and most people that give enough of a damn to watch them have largely made up their minds (whether or not they admit or are aware of it).

The debates become about style, delivering the 'talking points' with an air of presence and authority...and not screwing up.
 
I compare this with 2004 more than 1980 in that Mitt Romney reminds me a lot of John Kerry...zero personality and little likability over an unpopular incumbent president.

I think the Republicans picked their version of John Kerry.
 
This is what really happened in 1980.

View attachment 67135110
I don't know what polling data they used, but as far as what was available to the public, there was no wide divergence at the end, newspapers were reporting the race "too close to call" and there was no consensus among major polls as to who was in the lead. The final CBS and Newsweek polls had Reagan in the lead by 1, Gallup had Reagan by 3, the Washington Post had Carter by 3. I just don't see that reflected in the chart, which suggests there was agreement over a 10 point margin.
 
Polls probably are skewed to some degree, but that is not gonna matter. The media discovered in 1992 how to ensure their "choice" got elected. The only reason Gore failed in 2000 was because he didn't use Clinton and they nobody could have forseen the debacle in Florida. I'm no fan of Obama, but if the weather is right in FL, VA and OH, this will probably be a landslide in the electoral college for Mr. Obama.
 
With a few hundred million in advertising budget, each, the campaigns have already gotten their message out to most people for months now. There is unlikely to be anything new of substance that either is willing to say at this point. It's all out on the field already, and most people that give enough of a damn to watch them have largely made up their minds (whether or not they admit or are aware of it).

The debates become about style, delivering the 'talking points' with an air of presence and authority...and not screwing up.

I agree with your point about not screwing up. I wish we could have more direct back and forth between the candidates - aka a real debate.

With the format, mostly they will eat up their time with canned talking points and then it is up to the moderator to zero in on non-answers and deflections.

I expect them to give Obama a pass on this - and to some extent to hold Romney's feet to the fire.

If they do their job in a professional manner, then we can get a GLIMPSE of a real debate, but that is about it.

Talking points and deflection.

sad, really
 
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