Mitt Romney Needs To Reconsider The 47%

LANMaster said:

The figure seems pretty accurate. Unpleasant to be sure, but accurate.

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Did you even read the thread? Look who is actually in that 47%. Tell me those military personnel or retired seniors see themselves as victims and wont take responsibility for themselves. Tell me that.

Taylor said:

Yes, and Obama believes every single person in small town Pennsylvania is a bitter, racist, isolationist, gun-wielding, religious zealot. Every single one of them. Even the ones that vote for Obama - doesn't he realize!! OMG he's so stupid (blah blah blah):

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"And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

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Big difference, I'll explain.

Obama was saying, basically "these people feel screwed and they have a right to feel screwed." Yes, it was a clumsy and insensitive way to say it, and he apologized.
Romney was saying, basically "these people are worthless and I wont even bother with them." Romney didn't apologize. He doubled down.

I saw this the other day...a video of Mitt Romney's mother talking about how his father received assistance from the government.

Masada said:

I don't know if it's "defending ROmney" or not, but I can cite historical figures, including Ben Franklin, who believed that Democracy was all but over once the electorate figured out they could vote themselves greater and greater benefits from government. Because at that point, they would simply vote for the candidate promising the electorate more goodies funded by the American treasury.

Sooooo, it appears that Romney is versed with this philosophy quite well.

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I'm not disputing the harm dependency on government can do, just the accuracy of Romney's quote.

THIS is the philosophy that Romney understands about the left, and because he understands the effect of this type of philosophy, he makes statements about 47% of the country falling into the trap of ever increasing entitlement mentality

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So because 47% of Americans don't pay income taxes (for various reasons) that means all 47% have the same entitlement mentality?

Taylor said:

The 47% refers to Obama's base. He didn't say that there's 47% who don't pay taxes and they're all democrats.

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No, he was talking about Americans.

LANMaster said:

The figure seems pretty accurate. Unpleasant to be sure, but accurate.

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Its accurate to say that same 47% is voting for Obama?

Geoist said:

No, he was talking about Americans.

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Nope, he said 47% will vote for Obama no matter what. That refers to voters, not Americans in general.

Taylor said:

Nope, he said 47% will vote for Obama no matter what. That refers to voters, not Americans in general.

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Alright, point to me where he distinguishes between the 47% who pay no income tax and this other 47% who are voting for Obama.

Guys, read and refer directly to the text of the transcript already.

Romney: There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what. All right, there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe that government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you name it. That that's an entitlement. And the government should give it to them. And they will vote for this president no matter what. And I mean, the president starts off with 48, 49, 48—he starts off with a huge number. These are people who pay no income tax. Forty-seven percent of Americans pay no income tax. So our message of low taxes doesn't connect. And he'll be out there talking about tax cuts for the rich. I mean that's what they sell every four years. And so my job is not to worry about those people—I'll never convince them that they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives. What I have to do is convince the 5 to 10 percent in the center that are independents that are thoughtful, that look at voting one way or the other depending upon in some cases emotion, whether they like the guy or not, what it looks like. I mean, when you ask those people…we do all these polls—I find it amazing—we poll all these people, see where you stand on the polls, but 45 percent of the people will go with a Republican, and 48 or 4… [Recording stops.]

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He makes the equation of one-to-one of who votes for Obama with who doesn’t pay Federal Income Tax (whether they pay any Federal taxes on their income, or not), people that vote for Obama are all dependent mooches and only the dependent mooches vote for Obama.

It is an entirely crazy-talk myth, of course. But filthy rich GOP donors are the target audience (assumed by Romney to be the ONLY audience) and it plays right into their mental map of the world. The shelled $50K to listen to Romney’s floor show. They aren’t going to want to hear anything that leads them to question their assumptions.

Geoist said:

Alright, point to me where he distinguishes between the 47% who pay no income tax and this other 47% who are voting for Obama.

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I'm on a cellphone and can't easily link the transcript. But, if you read it or listen to the video, you'll see he was talking about Obama's base. He says 47% will vote obama no matter what, these are people that are dependent on government etc etc. He alludes again to the base "he starts with 48, 49" and then mentions that 47% don't pay taxes and therefore won't react to his tax cut proposals. - he was suggesting that Obama had 47% no matter what, and so he had to focus his campaign on Independents that carefully consider issues or somesuch.

Much ado about nothing.

Taylor said:

I'm on a cellphone and can't easily link the transcript. But, if you read it or listen to the video, you'll see he was talking about Obama's base. He says 47% will vote obama no matter what, these are people that are dependent on government etc etc. He alludes again to the base "he starts with 48, 49" and then mentions that 47% don't pay taxes and therefore won't react to his tax cut proposals. - he was suggesting that Obama had 47% no matter what, and so he had to focus his campaign on Independents that carefully consider issues or somesuch.

Much ado about nothing.

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Yeah ... it was just coincidence that he used 47% for both groups....

Are you for real?

Masada said:

I don't know if it's "defending ROmney" or not, but I can cite historical figures, including Ben Franklin, who believed that Democracy was all but over once the electorate figured out they could vote themselves greater and greater benefits from government. Because at that point, they would simply vote for the candidate promising the electorate more goodies funded by the American treasury.

Sooooo, it appears that Romney is versed with this philosophy quite well.

It's pretty hard to compete for the votes of the public when one candidate is saying, "vote for me, and I'll tax the rich more so I can give you more". Or when he's floating the notion that college education should be paid for, healthcare should be paid for, food, housing, etc, and that the government should GUARANTEE a job for everyone. He's promoting more dependency, and the electorate is learning that if they want more government benefits, just vote Liberal. If they want more food stamps, vote Liberal. If they want more unemployment benefits, vote liberal. If they want the government to pay for their health insurance, vote Liberal. If they want the government to pay for their college educations, vote Liberal.

THIS is the philosophy that Romney understands about the left, and because he understands the effect of this type of philosophy, he makes statements about 47% of the country falling into the trap of ever increasing entitlement mentality. You can't compete with a candidate that promises to take money from those who have it, and redistribute it out to them without having to earn it. Especially when he's proven that it doesn't matter if we have the money or not, he's going to redistribute it no matter how high our debt gets, no matter how high our deficits get.

Know this......it's not a slam, it's simply the truth, that even Benjamin Franklin recognized so long ago....

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The problem with what Romney said and your commentary above is not everyone within that 47% group are dependent on the government for food, housing, healthcare, etc. Moreover, if people really watch the Mother Jones' video* and listen to the question asked, you'd know that the answer Romney gave was equivalent to writing off half the country. The question Romney was asked had nothing nothing to do with how he could convince likely voters to turn from potentially voting for President Obama and unto himself. The question was "how do you get more people (who are on government entitlements) to take more responsibility for themselves?

So, when Romney provided his answer, he was saying exactly what he thinks. Eliquence in his response (or the lack thereof) had nothing to do with it. For more on why his 47% SNAFU is troubling for the Romney campaign, read this article from MSN.com, "Why Romney's 47% matters so much".

*Note: If you thought Romney's comment on the 47% was outrageous, wait 'til you hear what he says about fixing the economy in video #2.

Taylor said:

I'm on a cellphone and can't easily link the transcript.

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I just copy-pasted the full text of section of the transcript in question right above. He very clearly makes the link.

Objective Voice said:

The problem with what Romney said and your commentary above is not everyone within that 47% group are dependent on the government for food, housing, healthcare, etc. Moreover, if people really watch the Mother Jones' video* and listen to the question asked, you'd know that the answer Romney gave was equivalent to writing off half the country. The question Romney was asked had nothing nothing to do with how he could convince likely voters to turn from potentially voting for President Obama and unto himself. The question was "how do you get more people (who are on government entitlements) to take more responsibility for themselves?

So, when Romney provided his answer, he was saying exactly what he thinks. Eliquence in his response (or the lack thereof) had nothing to do with it. For more on why his 47% SNAFU is troubling for the Romney campaign, read this article from MSN.com, "Why Romney's 47% matters so much".

*Note: If you thought Romney's comment on the 47% was outrageous, wait 'til you hear what he says about fixing the economy in video #2.

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All true, but what really stands out is his statement that he won't concern himself with half the country. That is an astonishingly stupid thing for a presidential candidate to say.

Taylor said:

I'm on a cellphone and can't easily link the transcript.

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Another poster provided it.

But, if you read it or listen to the video, you'll see he was talking about Obama's base. He says 47% will vote obama no matter what, these are people that are dependent on government etc etc.

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And so the 47% who vote for Obama are dependent on government? Only about 3% of Obama voters are upper middle/upper class?!

He alludes again to the base "he starts with 48, 49" and then mentions that 47% don't pay taxes and therefore won't react to his tax cut proposals. - he was suggesting that Obama had 47% no matter what, and so he had to focus his campaign on Independents that carefully consider issues or somesuch.

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This is what I find ludicrous, the idea that the 47% who don't pay taxes are voting for Obama.

Much ado about nothing.

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Its an idiotic and backwards statement made by the man who may lead our country in a few months.

AdamT said:

All true, but what really stands out is his statement that he won't concern himself with half the country. That is an astonishingly stupid thing for a presidential candidate to say.

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I thought the comment about it all be easier if he was latino was the cherry on top. Way to close deal on the Cuban vote in Florida!

Geoist said:

Another poster provided it.

And so the 47% who vote for Obama are dependent on government? Only about 3% of Obama voters are upper middle/upper class?!

This is what I find ludicrous, the idea that the 47% who don't pay taxes are voting for Obama.

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No, he never said that 47% who don't pay taxes are voting for Obama. He didn't say that every one of the 47% who vote for Obama are dependent on government. He was talking about the base in general. Of course, had he been talking demographics and said "the 47% voting for Obama are single women, are young, are minorities..." there would be people on the left claiming that he believed everyone voting for Obama is a young, single, woman of color.

Of course you find ludicrous the idea that the 47% who don't pay taxes are all voting for Obama - it's a stupid sidea and stupid to believe that that's what Romney meant.

AdamT said:

Yeah ... it was just coincidence that he used 47% for both groups....

Are you for real?

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Well that certainly wins for "stupidest argument of the day" - he said 47% twice so it couldn't possibly be a coincidence. Never mind the context.

The last line is a dead giveaway: "I mean, when you ask those people…we do all these polls—I find it amazing—we poll all these people, see where you stand on the polls, but 45 percent of the people will go with a Republican, and 48 or 4… [Recording stops.] "

In all likelihood, he says "we poll all these people, see where you stand on the polls, but 45 percent of the people will go with a Republican, and 48 or 47 [or 48 or 49] will go with a Democrat."

He's CLEARLY talking about the base. First, when he says, "47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what." Second, when he says, "I mean, the president starts off with 48, 49, 48—he starts off with a huge number." and third when he says "we do all these polls—I find it amazing—we poll all these people, see where you stand on the polls, but 45 percent of the people will go with a Republican, and 48 or 4[7/9 will go with a Democrat]"

I know you're not going to publicly admit you're wrong; this is more directed toward the "5 to 10 percent in the center that are independents that are thoughtful"

Taylor said:

Well that certainly wins for "stupidest argument of the day" - he said 47% twice so it couldn't possibly be a coincidence. Never mind the context.

The last line is a dead giveaway: "I mean, when you ask those people…we do all these polls—I find it amazing—we poll all these people, see where you stand on the polls, but 45 percent of the people will go with a Republican, and 48 or 4… [Recording stops.] "

In all likelihood, he says "we poll all these people, see where you stand on the polls, but 45 percent of the people will go with a Republican, and 48 or 47 [or 48 or 49] will go with a Democrat."

He's CLEARLY talking about the base. First, when he says, "47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what." Second, when he says, "I mean, the president starts off with 48, 49, 48—he starts off with a huge number." and third when he says "we do all these polls—I find it amazing—we poll all these people, see where you stand on the polls, but 45 percent of the people will go with a Republican, and 48 or 4[7/9 will go with a Democrat]"

I know you're not going to publicly admit you're wrong; this is more directed toward the "5 to 10 percent in the center that are independents that are thoughtful"

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Come on, man, give it up. Everyone knows what he was talking about and trying to split hairs and parse words isn't going to fool anyone.

AdamT said:

Come on, man, give it up. Everyone knows what he was talking about and trying to split hairs and parse words isn't going to fool anyone.

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Another winner of an argument.

Taylor said:

Another winner of an argument.

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There is no argument. You just have to read his quote and take off the partisan goggles.

"Romney: There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what. All right, there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe that government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you name it. That that's an entitlement. And the government should give it to them. And they will vote for this president no matter what."

Bang, zoom.

Masada said:

I don't know if it's "defending ROmney" or not, but I can cite historical figures, including Ben Franklin, who believed that Democracy was all but over once the electorate figured out they could vote themselves greater and greater benefits from government. Because at that point, they would simply vote for the candidate promising the electorate more goodies funded by the American treasury.

Sooooo, it appears that Romney is versed with this philosophy quite well.

It's pretty hard to compete for the votes of the public when one candidate is saying, "vote for me, and I'll tax the rich more so I can give you more". Or when he's floating the notion that college education should be paid for, healthcare should be paid for, food, housing, etc, and that the government should GUARANTEE a job for everyone. He's promoting more dependency, and the electorate is learning that if they want more government benefits, just vote Liberal. If they want more food stamps, vote Liberal. If they want more unemployment benefits, vote liberal. If they want the government to pay for their health insurance, vote Liberal. If they want the government to pay for their college educations, vote Liberal.

THIS is the philosophy that Romney understands about the left, and because he understands the effect of this type of philosophy, he makes statements about 47% of the country falling into the trap of ever increasing entitlement mentality. You can't compete with a candidate that promises to take money from those who have it, and redistribute it out to them without having to earn it. Especially when he's proven that it doesn't matter if we have the money or not, he's going to redistribute it no matter how high our debt gets, no matter how high our deficits get.

Know this......it's not a slam, it's simply the truth, that even Benjamin Franklin recognized so long ago....

Click to expand...

i have heard a lot about the effect of taxing the rich more, but I don't see the effect that people are saying is there. The effect I see is that people like Romney will have less income, but they make more money in a year than most people see in a lifetime. So they have to buy a 2 million dollar summer home instead of a 3 million dollar one? When i look at the social programs like medicare, social security, unemployment, welfare, and college loans that money could really improve the lives of many people, and at a small loss to a rich person. before you go into entitlements of the rich i would say I think our society is at the point where it could provide food and shelter to people, and I see those as better entitlements than another ballarina horse for Mitt. You can say what you want about the laze welfare people the only difference they have from mitt is who they were born to. Mitt did not make himself, he inherited his money and power. Even if he didn't, I just do not see pissing money away by a rich person while letting people starve and die to be a worthwhile entitlement of the rich. If I ever get millions of dollars take some of that piss away money and give it to people who need it.

We have given huge breaks to the rich time and time again in america, and the constant thing that happens is we just get richer rich people. This is the effect i see. Jobs come from demand and not a pile of money. Commerce comes from a demand and not a pile of money. So just giving rich people money does not actually make jobs, it just makes them richer. And the biggest load of bull is that if there was a demand for something that the rich would simply not do it out of spite for taxes. That would be lost opportunity, and you don't get rich by ignoring demand you can make profit off of. If there was a demand to fill the rich people would get the money to fill it because that is how you make money. If there is no demand to fill then you can't just hire people for no reason.

This is why i do not see the effect you are talking about. On one hand you are not hurting the rich by taxing them, and you are helping a lot of people who actually need it and are not freeloaders, they just need a chance. On the other hand you are not actually stopping real jobs from being made. So i do not see the sin behind taxing the income of the rich at the same rate as everyone else.

Taylor said:

No, he never said that 47% who don't pay taxes are voting for Obama. He didn't say that every one of the 47% who vote for Obama are dependent on government.

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"there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it"

And they will vote for this president no matter what…These are people who pay no income tax,” he continued, adding “so our message of low taxes doesn’t connect.”

Romney Revealed: Leaked Footage Shows GOP Candidate Claiming 47 Percent of Americans Will Vote Obama Because They Want Gov

Of course you find ludicrous the idea that the 47% who don't pay taxes are all voting for Obama - it's a stupid sidea and stupid to believe that that's what Romney meant.

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That is what he said and you can't weasel your way around it.

Anyway you slice it, Romney basically said he doesn't care about a large chunk of Americans. Sorry, but as President, you work for all Americans.

Taylor said:

Another winner of an argument.

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Taylor, here's a conservative contradicting your claim on what Romney said.

"I think Romney raised an important issue, but he cited the wrong statistic and drew an unwarranted conclusion.

...here’s where Romney was wrong.

Yes, we have almost half of households not paying federal income tax, and I recognize that there’s a risk on an unhealthy political dynamic if people begin to think they get government for free, but those people are not necessarily looking for freebies from government."