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Obama's Tax penalty to hit nearly 6 million uninsured people

Again, no. If your income is that low the penalty won't apply to you.

But it WILL apply to about 6 million people, apparently.
 
http://waysandmeans.house.gov/uploadedfiles/goldberg_testimony_os911.pdf

under the section titled "Inevitable Decline in Employer-Provided Insurance Coverage and Inevitable Increase in Tax Gap":
First, there will be significant decline in employer-provided coverage and the small business incentive will be ineffectual. Second, there will be significant non-compliance among individuals and families through the failure to purchase coverage until needed, the over-statement of health insurance tax credits( good faith and otherwise ), and a longer term reduction in tax refunds that will increase IRS collection issues as a result of more "balance due" tax returns.

The guy's solution: make families prove they are eligible for tax credits every year, increase the penalties for not purchasing insurance for individuals and businesses drastically, and allow the IRS to put people in jail if they don't.

I wish I was making that up.
 
Sure, no problem. I'll get the health coverage. I'll simply get food stamps for me and my family to help offset the costs. The important thing to remember here is, we have a choice: buy health insurance, or pay fines to the government. Is the land of the free a great place to live, or what?!?

That makes no sense. You can't just go get food stamps to off set medical costs. It isn't that easy to get food stamps. Also, if you have a low enough income to get food stamps, you would be eligable for medicaid.
 
http://waysandmeans.house.gov/uploadedfiles/goldberg_testimony_os911.pdf

under the section titled "Inevitable Decline in Employer-Provided Insurance Coverage and Inevitable Increase in Tax Gap":


The guy's solution: make families prove they are eligible for tax credits every year, increase the penalties for not purchasing insurance for individuals and businesses drastically, and allow the IRS to put people in jail if they don't.

I wish I was making that up.

You claim to be a conservative but you don't like the mandate? I thought you conservatives where all about forcing people to be responsible for themselves. NOw, we have a health care system that forces people to take responsibilty for their own health care costs instead of passing those costs on to tax payers, and you complain. I just don't understand you new conservatives.
 
You claim to be a conservative but you don't like the mandate? I thought you conservatives where all about forcing people to be responsible for themselves. NOw, we have a health care system that forces people to take responsibilty for their own health care costs instead of passing those costs on to tax payers, and you complain. I just don't understand you new conservatives.

You are progressive. You are supposed to be compassionate, and yet here you are, arguing with someone on a forum, when you should be out on the streets, helping people through your own time and money.

I just don't understand you guys.
 
You claim to be a conservative but you don't like the mandate?
Of course not. Why would a conservative like the idea of the government having the power to force you something it thinks you should have, and tax you if you do not?
 
You are progressive. You are supposed to be compassionate, and yet here you are, arguing with someone on a forum, when you should be out on the streets, helping people through your own time and money.

I just don't understand you guys.

I have no clue what point you're trying to make here. However, you dodged the topic, so I suppose I hit a nerve.
 
Of course not. Why would a conservative like the idea of the government having the power to force you something it thinks you should have, and tax you if you do not?

Because it is a conservative idea that conservatives pushed for until Obama used it in his health care bill. DOn't you know what your conservatives leaders are doing?
 
Because it is a conservative idea....
No, its not.
It may be an idea that originated with Republicans, but not conservatives - and, in any case, that doesn't answer the question.

So, again:
Why would a conservative like the idea of the government having the power to force you something it thinks you should have, and tax you if you do not?
 
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Because it is a conservative idea that conservatives pushed for until Obama used it in his health care bill. DOn't you know what your conservatives leaders are doing?

Conservatives never "pushed for it." It was an "alternative" suggested by the Heritage Foundation during the debate over Hillarycare in '93/'94. Hillarycare failed; the debate was over, and nobody "pushed" for it again, because there was no reason to.
 
If everyone complies with the law, exactly no one in the middle class will pay a penalty. :shrug:

OTOH, tens of millions of working class people will receive subsidies to purchase health care insurance, which they could not afford in the past.

perhaps. Rates seem to be going up pretty quickly.

As much as it is completely unpalatable for your population, you either need to go back to your old system or you need to move to single payer. This mish-mash amalgam is going to be a fiscal, administrative and substantive disaster.
 
I still do not understand how the program works. If a single waitress making $16K a year at a local diner cannot afford health insurance, how would she get it and how would the financing work? She may not be able to afford to buy a policy and wait until next year to get her tax credit if that is it. She would not be eligible for Medicaid because she is employed and making above the poverty level. Nobody ever discusses how that would work, but it seems like the poor people it is supposed to help would be the ones most at risk to be punished. Even if insurance companies have to cover pre-existing conditions, I still haven't heard how those folks are going to be able to afford coverage because I would think if you were a diabetic with heart problems you would get rated out the door even if they didn't technically deny you.
 
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I find the partisan hypocrisy on this issue to be so incredible. Had a Republican passed a bill that forced someone to buy insurance from those evil companies or pay a tax I know that there would be tons of outrage (and rightly so) from the left/Democrats.
 
I find the partisan hypocrisy on this issue to be so incredible. Had a Republican passed a bill that forced someone to buy insurance from those evil companies or pay a tax I know that there would be tons of outrage (and rightly so) from the left/Democrats.

A Republican has passed a bill like that. He was Governor of Massachusetts.
 
More and more facts are leaking out about this absurd monster called obama care. All and I mean ALL government programs end up costing more and doing less than advertised.

Medicare part D came in under cost projections.
 
The taxes have already hit. Our premiums at work have jumped from $240 a month to $380 a month with the company absorbing 60% of the increase. Those are real numbers people. the unAffordable Health Care Activist law is nothing but an oppressive piece of legislation forced down our throats by a congress that didn't read it and signed by a President that knew it couldn't be paid for. You thought health care was expensive before, well now we can see just how expensive it is now that it is free.
 
I have no clue what point you're trying to make here. However, you dodged the topic, so I suppose I hit a nerve.

Its called a sarcastic response to you thinking you understand what conservatives are.

Conservatives don't want the federal government to force you to do something "for your own good". The federal government doesn't know what's best for individuals. And as usual, their "one size fits all" approach is a boondoggle that will completely wreck the existing health insurance industry. Perhaps that was the goal all along.

Take an issue, make it worse, then offer the solution. Typical big-government playbook.
 
Nonsense. If you're unemployed then you will be exempt from the penalty. If you are self employed you will have access to lower cost insurance through an exchange, and if you are lower income you will be entitled to subsidized insurance.

Or ... you can pay the small penalty, have no insurance, and foist off your health care costs on everyone else.

My understanding is that those exchanges are already not working out very well, and that there are already huge cost over-runs even with uptake rates being lower than anticipated. Let me see if I can track down the article.

And just to be clear, I am from Canada and I am reasonably happy with single payer, though I have no illusions about it. I certainly don't like a number of things, including, in no particular order: (i) we criminalize paying to jump the queue, which incidentally just shifts the queue jumping from those with dollars to those with lots of doctor connections, which works for me too); (ii) we significantly under-invest in capital equipment, such that, e.g., "elective" MRIs on things like bad backs can take up to a year; (iii) wait times for elective procedures like, say, hip or knee replacements, can take up to 2 years or longer (and, again, you can't pay to jump the queue); (iv) we are slow to adopt new and better technologies (e.g., when the U.S. had virtually 100% adoption rates for drug coated stents for angioplasties, we were still around 20%, with again no option to pay extra to buy the better products ourselves; (v) amenities at hospitals and other medical care facilities sort of suck. The places are depressing because there is no incentive to invest in appearances or technologies or, say, an extra bed so that when you pay for a private room with your wife who just had a c-section you can stay the night without sleeping on a chair. Lack of profit motive or the need to try to pull patients from otehr facilities does exactly what it does in other markets - reduce the quality of offerings to consumers.

And I certainly don't like the lack of incentives for patients to conserve care or consume care efficiently that co-payments provide. Nor do I like the massive taxes we pay into the system, which when you look at it are really massive wealth transfers from younger people (who consume far, far less care than they pay for) to older people (which is what Obamacare does too, incidentally)

But all in all, whille I wouldn't propose an NHS type debacle of a national system, single payer is equivalent to government insurance for private care, and seems to work reasonably well. And I see your system rolling invariably to disaster, cause it is a mish-mash of dysfunctional nonsense.

I also suspect you can do far more good for the affordability of your health care system with good, targeted, comprehensive tort reform. Not only do your docs waste tons of money on malpractice insurance with massive premiums, but the degree of waste generated by defensive medicine (extra unnecessary testing, procedures, etc) is massive. That's one of the ways our system manages to be way more efficient than yours (and if we spent what you spend as a % of GDP, our system would be better than yours in pretty much every respect).

Now just to get a parting shot in cause I now we are not supposed to agree too much, it is my understanding that the biggest impediment to substantive tort reform are the trial lawyers, who are a key democratic constituency for funding purposes. No wonder Obama's comprehensive reforms leave the lawyers alone in their little game of rent seeking.
 
Medicare part D came in under cost projections.

And the number of not covered meds seems to be growing and every year you have to jump through more and more hurdles to get routine things like the cholesterol medicines that actually work per the seniors I know. I suppose they forget what it was like to have no coverage, but a lot of them seem less than thrilled with the program.
 
Wouldn't it be cool if instead of this wacky tax thing and personal mandate that everybody (except the insurance companies who are going to make a mint off of it) hates, we had just passed single payer, like all the people who wanted healthcare reform actually wanted in the first place? This was the compromise that we got because of all the opposition to single payer.
 
And the number of not covered meds seems to be growing and every year you have to jump through more and more hurdles to get routine things like the cholesterol medicines that actually work per the seniors I know. I suppose they forget what it was like to have no coverage, but a lot of them seem less than thrilled with the program.


Crestor runs about 160 per mnth.
 
Um... tell your boss to give you insurance? If they have it go buy it it's pretty cheap. Even cheaper and better now under Obama care.

How much is the "penalty" anyways. I bet it's pocket change, any more and the cheap company policies would cost less, might as well just buy it. The idea is to "force" people to focus more on prevention. A larger pool and new laws mean more fair and affordable healthcare insurance.

I have a few friends that are doctors. What they tell me is the effects on doctors is an increase in primary care (family doctors) and a decrease in specialists, and it should increase efficiency of our medical system.

From what I've seen university programs are getting way more expensive. Insurance is going to get way more expensive for everyone, and more and more businesses are going to drop coverage and pay the fine. This was all predicted at the outset and there are lots of examples of it happening already.
 
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