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You Can't Stand Up to China While You're Running a Huge National Debt.

we will stand up to china, one day.. and when the shooting start, all the debts will be normalise and zeroise

this world is run by he who has the biggest gun

and for the record, Obama never bow in china, Obama bow in the middle east
 
Can you give me an example of "fair trade"? How would that work? Better yet, why aren't we doing it now (or ever before)?

Fair trade is the trade we used to have before free trade pacts started happening. It allows us to tariff goods based on the other countries' employment treatment, environmental dumping. You create tiers of trade standards. Like a class A Class B, Class C and so forth. If you meet some of the standards we have you move up in the trading tiers and you get lower tariffs on your goods. If you make it to class A, you get no tariffs. This way they are raising their standards in their country rather than us lowering our standards to act like a third world country in order to compete.
 
Sounds pretty complicated. Every product would need to be evaluated. I see a huge bureaucracy to implement this.

Some products we buy can't be made here due to environmental restrictions. If we force our standards on the supplier, how will that benefit us?

Morally speaking, it's very appealing. Practically speaking, I see endless court battles, trade wars and higher prices overall.

Thanks for explaining. I saw "fair trade" coffee the other day and wondered WTF it meant.



Fair trade is the trade we used to have before free trade pacts started happening. It allows us to tariff goods based on the other countries' employment treatment, environmental dumping. You create tiers of trade standards. Like a class A Class B, Class C and so forth. If you meet some of the standards we have you move up in the trading tiers and you get lower tariffs on your goods. If you make it to class A, you get no tariffs. This way they are raising their standards in their country rather than us lowering our standards to act like a third world country in order to compete.
 
Sounds pretty complicated. Every product would need to be evaluated. I see a huge bureaucracy to implement this.

Some products we buy can't be made here due to environmental restrictions. If we force our standards on the supplier, how will that benefit us?

Morally speaking, it's very appealing. Practically speaking, I see endless court battles, trade wars and higher prices overall.

Thanks for explaining. I saw "fair trade" coffee the other day and wondered WTF it meant.

Well it can't be that complicated. We used to tariff in the past. Also, all products have country of origin stamped on them already.
 
Or at least Obama said so. In 2008.



I suspect that China knows it, too.


It's true. There is a definite sense on their part that they are in the drivers' seat now.
 
Well it can't be that complicated. We used to tariff in the past. Also, all products have country of origin stamped on them already.

Trade wars are wars that governments wage on their own people. The dumbest response to China would be to cut off the nose of the American economy.
 
Yes, we did and we stopped doing it. Like most things, it got really complex. I've been in the import/export business from 1969-1985 and I remember the battles over item descriptions etc.

I don't object to it, but I see complexities that make it unlikely to happen For one thing, we have so many products we don't make anyomre and aren't likely to take up again, I can only imagine the lobbying and exceptions that will make this resemble our tax codes.

Just musing really.


Well it can't be that complicated. We used to tariff in the past. Also, all products have country of origin stamped on them already.
 
Trade wars are wars that governments wage on their own people. The dumbest response to China would be to cut off the nose of the American economy.

They've been doing it to us... sure as hell boosted their economy something fierce.
 
Yes, we did and we stopped doing it. Like most things, it got really complex. I've been in the import/export business from 1969-1985 and I remember the battles over item descriptions etc.

I don't object to it, but I see complexities that make it unlikely to happen For one thing, we have so many products we don't make anyomre and aren't likely to take up again, I can only imagine the lobbying and exceptions that will make this resemble our tax codes.

Just musing really.

Well tbh, no good change seemingly will ever come with our bribery... er... lobbying rules as they are.
 
They've been doing it to us... sure as hell boosted their economy something fierce.

1. Chinese Economic Growth is.... not what you think it is. There's a lot of backstory there, but it basically comes down to Chinese growth has been inflated, in some areas wildly so.

2. If you are referring to them artificially pegging the renminbi to the dollar, then think about that for a second - you just argued that the Chinese were unfairly giving us stuff. You just complained that the Chinese were willing to deliberately impoverish themselves in order to increase the standard of living for our poor.

Hey, as long as they are dumb enough to do that, I say let 'em.
 
The lobbying and bribery that I had hoped might change with Obama, post-Bush, has been one of my biggest disappointments. If anything, it's gotten worse.

Well tbh, no good change seemingly will ever come with our bribery... er... lobbying rules as they are.
 
1. Chinese Economic Growth is.... not what you think it is. There's a lot of backstory there, but it basically comes down to Chinese growth has been inflated, in some areas wildly so.

Manipulating their currency is another reason to tariff them.

2. If you are referring to them artificially pegging the renminbi to the dollar, then think about that for a second - you just argued that the Chinese were unfairly giving us stuff. You just complained that the Chinese were willing to deliberately impoverish themselves in order to increase the standard of living for our poor.

Well it doesn't benefit our poor when the poor lose even their low paying jobs to the Chinese because they pay so little and dump their toxins in the Yangtze river. Then our poor can't much afford even Chinese goods.

Hey, as long as they are dumb enough to do that, I say let 'em.

But it's not benefiting us. It's hurting us.
 
The lobbying and bribery that I had hoped might change with Obama, post-Bush, has been one of my biggest disappointments. If anything, it's gotten worse.

That's been one of my bigger disappointments with Obama. Especially when he was running in 2004 saying that he was going to renegotiate if not shut down NAFTA and such free trade agreements. Since then we've signed more free trade agreements.
 
We manipulate our currency, so should we be tarriffed?

We do not tie our currency value to that of another nation's currency so that we will maintain cheaper products. Also, China is tariffing the **** out of us.
 
We do not tie our currency value to that of another nation's currency so that we will maintain cheaper products. Also, China is tariffing the **** out of us.

When we inflate our currency we devalue the Chinese creditors.
 
When we inflate our currency we devalue the Chinese creditors.

Inflation is the price WE pay for printing money to make money. The devaluation of Chinese currency is the price they pay for tying their currency value to ours and not riding on their own value. If they lose out because they want to cheat their currency, then they deserve it... but as of now, their cheating of their currency has them coming out on the winning end of our trade with them.

I keep hearing how "we don't want a trading war"... we are already in one. We simple have made the conscience choice to receive all the bullets and not shoot any.
 
Chinese companies are starting to build some plants in the US. I am not sure what to make of it when it seems more economical to pay someone here $25K a year instead of someone there $2500 a year.
 
Chinese companies are starting to build some plants in the US. I am not sure what to make of it when it seems more economical to pay someone here $25K a year instead of someone there $2500 a year.

Probably foreseeing the transport expense coming as fuel demand drastically increases in their nation and in India and therefore world-wide demand increases, while here in the US, we have crude demand dropping for quite some time now.
 
Probably foreseeing the transport expense coming as fuel demand drastically increases in their nation and therefore world-wide, while here in the US, we have crude demand dropping for quite some time now.

I considered that. I also considered that they are hedging against tariffs by producing domestically. My true suspicion is that they are laying the groundwork so it won't be so shocking and political if and when they build a car plant here because that seems to be an area of manufacturing they are about to jump head first into.
 
I considered that. I also considered that they are hedging against tariffs by producing domestically. My true suspicion is that they are laying the groundwork so it won't be so shocking and political if and when they build a car plant here because that seems to be an area of manufacturing they are about to jump head first into.

That's one thing that Reagan did that I can fully agree with when he said if you want to sell cars in the US you have to build cars in the US. All the free-trader folks of today would crucify him for that.
 
That's one thing that Reagan did that I can fully agree with when he said if you want to sell cars in the US you have to build cars in the US. All the free-trader folks of today would crucify him for that.

Maybe not with our current unemployment figures :) It also would be a very powerful stick to say "Well, if we can't build cars, then we are closing all these other manufacturing plants."
 
Manipulating their currency is another reason to tariff them.

On the contrary, manipulating their currency hurts their poor in order to help our poor and their upper middle - upper class.

Well it doesn't benefit our poor when the poor lose even their low paying jobs to the Chinese because they pay so little and dump their toxins in the Yangtze river. Then our poor can't much afford even Chinese goods.

The loss of jobs to China is exagerated to the extent that it isn't a myth. Whenever we liberalize trade, jobs in the US increase.

Specific jobs and industries flow around, and are invariably replaced by better ones for the simple enough reason that mutually beneficial trade is just that - mutually beneficial. In RhetoricLand, it's always easy to get people to focus on the concrete loss here or there. In RealityLand, however, our exports increase whenever we sign Free Trade Agreements, even as our standard of living goes up as our cost of living goes down. What you are describing here is just a complaint against the creative destruction of progress. When you introduce the automobile, the buggy industry goes out of business - and you can't save it without seizing up growth and keeping us all poorer.


Slapping Tarriffs on China would instantly raise the cost of living for our working poor. It instantly makes it harder for them to feed, clothe, and house their families. Ironically, the loss of economic efficiency will mean more layoffs, which will be concentrated on those whose labor is worth the least. Tarriffs are dumb because they are usually built along bad math and false assumptions; but they are wrong because they most harm those among us who are already the most vulnerable.
 
Chinese companies are starting to build some plants in the US. I am not sure what to make of it when it seems more economical to pay someone here $25K a year instead of someone there $2500 a year.

Because the two workers are not equally as productive. If an American worker with the capital infrastructure available here costs $25K a year and produces $45K of value, then he is actually cheaper than the Chinese guy who makes $10K a year but only produces $15K of value.


Businesses do not care about labor costs in a vacuum. They care about labor costs relative to productivity.
 
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