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FactCheck.org weighs in on Democratic convention speeches...

dayum... I don't think i've ever read a thread with 16 pages of deflections ... 3 or 4 sure.. but 16?... wow
 
j-mac said:
Ok, I am lost a little here, what point are you saying I should concede?
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That the current liberals are marxist where you yourself stated they don't try and implement the ideology.
 
Thrilla said:
dayum... I don't think i've ever read a thread with 16 pages of deflections ... 3 or 4 sure.. but 16?... wow
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This is the big time player....This ain't no disco....;)
 
megaprogman said:
That the current liberals are marxist where you yourself stated they don't try and implement the ideology.
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No, I believe to be clear I would say for the record, that the current crop are progressive/marxist...IOW, progressive first, with marxist, collectivist, authoritarian leanings. Is that better?
 
j-mac said:
No, I believe to be clear I would say for the record, that the current crop are progressive/marxist...IOW, progressive first, with marxist, collectivist, authoritarian leanings. Is that better?
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How would this be possible due to the following:
1. There is no set progressive ideology, one could be a progressive conservative or a progressive liberal for example, so this is a meaningless point.
2. We already covered the marxist point where you conceded that they do not implement the proscriptions from marx (again, democrats are not anarchist for example)
3. You may be correct in collectivist, but there is nothing wrong with it either, so long as its not too collectivist (just like one should not go too far in the direction of individuality)
4. Give me a mainstream political party that isn't authoritarian.
5. Many of these labels contradict each other.
 
megaprogman said:
How would this be possible due to the following:
1. There is no set progressive ideology, one could be a progressive conservative or a progressive liberal for example, so this is a meaningless point.
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Good point...I am also of the belief that there are progressive conservatives, like McCain, and my own Lindsey Graham.

2. We already covered the marxist point where you conceded that they do not implement the proscriptions from marx (again, democrats are not anarchist for example)
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No, you are mischaracterizing that...I said that they don't use ALL of the tenants...That doesn't mean that they don't pick and choose...

3. You may be correct in collectivist, but there is nothing wrong with it either, so long as its not too collectivist (just like one should not go too far in the direction of individuality)
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Does individuality scare you? Why?

4. Give me a mainstream political party that isn't authoritarian.
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One should never justify the other.

5. Many of these labels contradict each other.
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Much of the last four years have been a direct contradiction of what was promised. So then, if my answer doesn't make sense, it could be because that is the intent of the current administration, and their surrogates...Or it could just be that they are run of the mill statists.
 
j-mac said:
No, you are mischaracterizing that...I said that they don't use ALL of the tenants...That doesn't mean that they don't pick and choose...
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Which, by definion means they don't mean the fundamental basic criteria of that terminology.

j-mac said:
Does individuality scare you? Why?
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I am quite individualistic, but I recognize the value of community and its role in increasing prosperity and well being, the best economic and social solutions have elements of both.

j-mac said:
One should never justify the other.
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Good point, but some level of authoritarianism is needed for society to even function. Even libertarians recognize that, if in a very limited way. So authoritarian in and of itself doesn't need justification.

j-mac said:
Much of the last four years have been a direct contradiction of what was promised. So then, if my answer doesn't make sense, it could be because that is the intent of the current administration, and their surrogates...Or it could just be that they are run of the mill statists.
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Their intent is to confuse you?
 
megaprogman said:
Which, by definion means they don't mean the fundamental basic criteria of that terminology.
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Ok, call em, 'neo-marxists' then...I don't care, both are in the practice of taking away my labor for the benefit of others that I owe nothing to.

I am quite individualistic, but I recognize the value of community and its role in increasing prosperity and well being, the best economic and social solutions have elements of both.
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Lucky for us that those are spelled out in writing, and not left to the whims of any current administration. Right?

Good point, but some level of authoritarianism is needed for society to even function. Even libertarians recognize that, if in a very limited way. So authoritarian in and of itself doesn't need justification.
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Limited is the key....It is that power that has been in the sights of expansion by both parties even the current one in power.

Their intent is to confuse you?
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Absolutely! Confusion makes the lie easier to spread.
 
j-mac said:
Ok, call em, 'neo-marxists' then...I don't care, both are in the practice of taking away my labor for the benefit of others that I owe nothing to.
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We can call them froofoloo then since we are making up words.

j-mac said:
Lucky for us that those are spelled out in writing, and not left to the whims of any current administration. Right?
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Sure, our current government has elements of both individuality and collectivism, just like every other successful country that follows pragmatic considerations rather than principals and consequences be damned.

j-mac said:
Limited is the key....It is that power that has been in the sights of expansion by both parties even the current one in power.
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But you stated authoritarianism is bad, now you are backtracking I see.

j-mac said:
Absolutely! Confusion makes the lie easier to spread.
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And the lie is?
 
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