Alan Ashton: Mitt Romney's Rev. Wright???

Fishstyx said:

So does that mean this is off limits as Wright was in 2008? I do recall anyone that brought it up was instantly dubbed a racist.

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Like that stopped the republicans.

And it is a bit different, Wright was just an outspoken preacher from a mainline protestant religious church, Ashton has served in a priesthood function in the cult that Romney is also part of. Being a cult preacher is a bit different than being an outspoken mainstream church preacher IMHO.

Wrights points of view should be discussed but just because Wright has opinions does not mean that Obama has the same opinions because Christianity is quite diverse. LDS is a cult, which has points of view that are quite unorthodox and some are even illegal, discussing that should be allowed because not only does Ashton believe in this religion, so does Romney.

So in my opinion, denouncing Wrights points of view is fine but Obama can only be blamed for this if he shares this opinion and the same goes for Ashton and Romney.

Yeah...this drum you want to keep banging...I dont think its gonna work so good. After all...

AUDIE CORNISH, HOST:

President Obama's announcement this week that he now supports gay marriage has sent political pundits into a frenzy of analysis and pontification. One key question: Does the president's decision help or hurt him with core democratic constituencies, especially African-Americans? In the election year toss-up state of North Carolina, for instance, black preachers led the charge for the recent amendment banning gay marriage.

The Reverend Patrick Wooden, senior pastor of the Upper Room Church of God in Christ, in Raleigh, North Carolina, was one of them. Here's how he reacted to the news of the president's decision.

REVEREND PATRICK WOODEN: I am going to do all that I can to influence as many people as possible to think for themselves and allow the God of Christianity and the teachings of Christianity to have more influence in their lives than any person who may be holding any political office, even if that office is the presidency of the United States of America. This particular decision I find appalling, and I could not disagree with the president more on it.

Obama's Gay Marriage Stance Stirs Black Community : NPR

So go ahead...attack Romney on his opposition to Gay Marriage. Heck, you may actual make him more popular with black folks...

VanceMack said:

So go ahead...attack Romney on his opposition to Gay Marriage. Heck, you may actual make him more popular with black folks...

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Well since he is at 0% among blacks right now, he cant very well go down any could he?

CONSagainROMNEY said:

Well since he is at 0% among blacks right now, he cant very well go down any could he?

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Incorrect poster posts incorrect post. :applaud

Peter King said:

LDS is a cult, which has points of view that are quite unorthodox and some are even illegal…

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Really? Can you cite some specific LDS views that are illegal? Keep in mind that this entire discussion is specific to the United States of America. Whatever tyrannical laws you may have over ther in the Netherlands; here, we have freedom of speech and freedom of religion, as affirmed in the First Amendment to our Constitution. If you are going to claim that any belief is illegal here, then you have some serious explaining to do.

Peter King said:

Like that stopped the republicans.

And it is a bit different, Wright was just an outspoken preacher from a mainline protestant religious church, Ashton has served in a priesthood function in the cult that Romney is also part of. Being a cult preacher is a bit different than being an outspoken mainstream church preacher IMHO.

Wrights points of view should be discussed but just because Wright has opinions does not mean that Obama has the same opinions because Christianity is quite diverse. LDS is a cult, which has points of view that are quite unorthodox and some are even illegal, discussing that should be allowed because not only does Ashton believe in this religion, so does Romney.

So in my opinion, denouncing Wrights points of view is fine but Obama can only be blamed for this if he shares this opinion and the same goes for Ashton and Romney.

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Lets keep in mind that Obama was just a member of the church. And to be candid he has never done anything to make me believe that he has a super duper strong faith in the church. There is a book out there called The Younger Mr. Obama, I believe, that explains how at least some of his motivation for joining the southside church was that if he wanted to get elected for ANYTHING by the people of Chicago, then he needed a strong church background. This is when he was running for state senate in Illinois 15 years ago. From my perspective, he was basically just punching his ticket each SUnday, doing his time in the pew and maybe doing some glad-handing.

Romney on the other hand is the equivilent to a Bishop in his church. He does much more than just the one hour service on Sundays. He went on a mission when he was 19 and has been a Mormon his entire life.

Bob Blaylock said:

Really? Can you cite some specific LDS views that are illegal? Keep in mind that this entire discussion is specific to the United States of America. Whatever tyrannical laws you may have over ther in the Netherlands; here, we have freedom of speech and freedom of religion, as affirmed in the First Amendment to our Constitution. If you are going to claim that any belief is illegal here, then you have some serious explaining to do.

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Yeah, we have tyrannical laws in the Netherlands:roll:

The Netherlands is number 4 in the happiest countries in the world, Dutch children are the happiest children in Europe and North America, we are one of the most democratic countries in the world, are ranked as one of the highest in press freedom, one of the least corrupt countries, the country with the tallest people in the world and in my country people are very free in their doings and their thinking so take you accusation of tyranny and stick it on a country where it really belongs (not in the Netherlands, Iran is a good candidate though).

Freedom of speech? Freedom of speech is so absolute in the US that everyone can say anything even if it is the most hate-ridden form of racist or anti-semitic texts, you might like that, I think that is not such a great thing. And freedom of speech is not that brilliant if you are a communist (McCarthy'ism and the attitude towards communists is still not that open) or Muslim's who want to open a house of prayer near the World Wide trade center. It may have been in poor taste but then freedom of religion suddenly was not that free in the points of view of a lot of Americans.

And you may have freedom of speech but respect for other people's opinion is not that established as I have seen here and on many other forums. Your political system is almost to the point of it being a political war for power. Coming into power for the betterment of the country is no longer the case, republicans (and to a lesser extend democrats) want power to further their political and religious goals, even if it is bad for the country, the people living in it and the pursuit of individuals for life, liberty and happiness.

We also have freedom of speech in the Netherlands and people may take the right of speech to very extreme lengths but not to all lenghts. Sometimes people utter such extremist hatred that it violates other civil rights that people have. It may be rare but sometimes that happens and people get fined for saying things like that.

In the Netherlands it is forbidden to deny the holocaust in public. You can feel what you want in private but there is an anti-discrimination law in the Netherlands to fight extreme racist remarks.


Now back to crimes of mormonism:

1. polygamy
2. incest
3. the mormon cult has not repudiated it's racist views (racism is last time I checked still illegal)


And then there are things that might not be illegal but totally immoral, like baptism of holocaust victims and Jewish people.

And last but not least, you accuse me of something I did not even say (just like most republican and democratic faithful, who also have that problem on a rather regular basis). I did not claim that any belief in the US is illegal! I said the mormom church has practives/views that might be illegal.

CONSagainROMNEY said:

He went on a mission when he was 19 and has been a Mormon his entire life.

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Most young Mormons go on mission in the 18-25 age range, and many of them have been Mormons their entire life. I think the mission is some kind of requirement.

CONSagainROMNEY said:

Well since he is at 0% among blacks right now, he cant very well go down any could he?

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Indeed...but thats not really the point is it? See...to me..the point is there are an awful lot of gutless spineless ****s that attack Romneys religion with regard to gay marriage yet never seem to have the balls to attack...well...say...the majority of black folks that consistently vote against gay marriage. Or the majority of hispanic folk. Or for that matter, the democrats that are still opposed to gay marriage. Speaks volumes...about you...doesnt it?

Peter King said:

Yeah, we have tyrannical laws in the Netherlands:roll:

The Netherlands is number 4 in the happiest countries in the world, Dutch children are the happiest children in Europe and North America, we are one of the most democratic countries in the world, are ranked as one of the highest in press freedom, one of the least corrupt countries, the country with the tallest people in the world and in my country people are very free in their doings and their thinking so take you accusation of tyranny and stick it on a country where it really belongs (not in the Netherlands, Iran is a good candidate though).

Freedom of speech? Freedom of speech is so absolute in the US that everyone can say anything even if it is the most hate-ridden form of racist or anti-semitic texts, you might like that, I think that is not such a great thing.

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That's what freedom of speech is about—being able to express any opinion or belief, no matter how much someone else disagrees with it. I note that farther down, you spout some outright hateful lies about Mormonism. You certainly know very well that that is what you are doing; and I find your lies about my religion to be highly offensive. But freedom of speech means you have a right to say them. By any principles that could result in someone being prosecuted for “the most hate-ridden form of racist or anti-semitic texts”, I would be equally justified in calling for you to be prosecuted for the hateful lies that you are spreading about my faith.

Peter King said:

We also have freedom of speech in the Netherlands and people may take the right of speech to very extreme lengths but not to all lenghts [sic]. Sometimes people utter such extremist hatred that it violates other civil rights that people have. It may be rare but sometimes that happens and people get fined for saying things like that.

In the Netherlands it is forbidden to deny the holocaust in public. You can feel what you want in private but there is an anti-discrimination law in the Netherlands to fight extreme racist remarks.

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It is clear enough by now that either you haven't the faintest clue what freedom of speech is about, or else you do not agree with it. If you had freedom of speech, then it would not be “forbidden to deny the holocaust in public”, nor would you be prohibited from expressing “extreme racist remarks”.

Peter King said:

Now back to crimes of mormonism:

1. polygamy
2. incest
3. the mormon cult has not repudiated it's racist views (racism is last time I checked still illegal)


And then there are things that might not be illegal but totally immoral, like baptism of holocaust victims and Jewish people.

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So in the Netherlands, it's not OK to spread racial lies and bigotry, but it's OK to spread lies and bigotry about a religion?

Perhaps before you say another word about bigotry, you should take a long, hard look in the mirror. Do something about the beam in your own eye before you complain about the mote in someone else's eye.

Peter King said:

And last but not least, you accuse me of something I did not even say (just like most republican and democratic faithful, who also have that problem on a rather regular basis). I did not claim that any belief in the US is illegal! I said the mormom [sic] church has practives [sic]/views that might be illegal.

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These are your exact words…


You did not say anything about practices. You said that Mormonism has “points of view” that are illegal. “Points of view” are beliefs, not practices. So yes, you accused Mormonism of having beliefs that are illegal.

rocket88 said:

Most young Mormons go on mission in the 18-25 age range, and many of them have been Mormons their entire life. I think the mission is some kind of requirement.

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Not a “requirement” in any meaningful sense, but young men are very strongly encouraged to. I never went on a mission, and neither did my father, but my brother did.

VanceMack said:

Indeed...but thats not really the point is it? See...to me..the point is there are an awful lot of gutless spineless ****s that attack Romneys religion with regard to gay marriage yet never seem to have the balls to attack...well...say...the majority of black folks that consistently vote against gay marriage. Or the majority of hispanic folk. Or for that matter, the democrats that are still opposed to gay marriage. Speaks volumes...about you...doesnt it?

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…Or the majority of Americans in general. Every time the issue has been put to a ballot, voters have overwhelmingly rejected the concept of “gay marriage”. This cuts across party lines, racial lines, religious lines, whatever. In spite of all the politically-correct hype that suggests otherwise, Americans, as a whole, do not accept the concept of “gay marriage” at all.

Bob Blaylock said:

…Or the majority of Americans in general. Every time the issue has been put to a ballot, voters have overwhelmingly rejected the concept of “gay marriage”. This cuts across party lines, racial lines, religious lines, whatever. In spite of all the politically-correct hype that suggests otherwise, Americans, as a whole, do not accept the concept of “gay marriage” at all.

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All I can say is, enjoy it while it lasts.

The clock is ticking and in our lifetimes gay marriage will be legal throughout the United States.

And it will be a great day for freedom.

Bob Blaylock said:

That's what freedom of speech is about—being able to express any opinion or belief, no matter how much someone else disagrees with it. I note that farther down, you spout some outright hateful lies about Mormonism. You certainly know very well that that is what you are doing; and I find your lies about my religion to be highly offensive. But freedom of speech means you have a right to say them. By any principles that could result in someone being prosecuted for “the most hate-ridden form of racist or anti-semitic texts”, I would be equally justified in calling for you to be prosecuted for the hateful lies that you are spreading about my faith.

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No, your opinion is that freedom of speech should be absolute, mine is that freedom of speech may be absolute but that if you publicly commit hate crimes (like Holocaust denial) you can and should be held accountable in a court of law. Freedom of speech IMHO should not be absolute.

Also, I do not spout outright lies about Mormonism.

Warren Jeffs, leader of the fundamentalist mormon church has been convicted of incest. Polygamy is still the practice in some factions of the mormon faithfull.

I did not say that all mormons did it but some still do.

Also, when I wrote that the church LSD has not repudiated their racist views I took that straight from Wikipedia. I happen to think it is truthfull what they are saying. LSD might not be racist any more actively but it has not recalled their racist opinions of people of color either.

Personally I care less what you think of my opinions of your cult religion. Even in my country (where there are consequences if your free speech is criminally racist or offensive) my opinions would be just that opinions. One has to be way more extreme in ones views to ever even be considered to be criminally racist or offensive.

Bob Blaylock said:

It is clear enough by now that either you haven't the faintest clue what freedom of speech is about, or else you do not agree with it. If you had freedom of speech, then it would not be “forbidden to deny the holocaust in public”, nor would you be prohibited from expressing “extreme racist remarks”.

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No, I know exactly what freedom of speech is, I also know what racism is. You can speak freely in the Netherlands but to some free speech there is a consequence and that is prosecution.

And if freedom of speech is so highly regarded in the US why is the word hell always pronounced as "heck"? Most profanities are bleeped away by the censorship that is common practice in most US tv shows? Show a little boob and you are fined hundreds of thousands of dollars?

Freedom of speech is only a gimmick IMHO because real freedom comes not from saying some extreme views but being able to live free. Like gays being allowed to marry, that is freedom of speech in practice. You may say it the US but then republican taliban officials make it so that it is only speaking about it that is legal. You may say you want an abortion after a rape, but the republican taliban want to make that illegal too.

Real freedom comes from respecting other peoples right to live their lives in freedom. As long as it is legal, in the Netherlands you are not only allowed to talk about it but also live your lives accordingly.

I think it is rightly so that people are not allowed to deny the mass murder of 6 million jewish people.

Bob Blaylock said:

So in the Netherlands, it's not OK to spread racial lies and bigotry, but it's OK to spread lies and bigotry about a religion?

Perhaps before you say another word about bigotry, you should take a long, hard look in the mirror. Do something about the beam in your own eye before you complain about the mote in someone else's eye.

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You can still be bigoted in the Netherlands and not be prosecuted. Say it in the privacy of your own room and it is fine, do it publicly and you may end up being prosecuted if you are so hateful or illegal that it breaks the law. Having an opinion about a religion is not always bigoted, especially if true. Like my remarks about mormons where true. Just like I can truthfully say that the catholic church is an church that has made it possible for countless children to be sexually molested by protecting the perpetrators of those crimes and shielding them from the prosecution they so richly deserved.

I did not say that each and every mormon rapes children or marries more than 1 woman, but it is a practice that some mormons do happen to engage in. Not a lie, just the ugly truth.

Bob Blaylock said:

These are your exact words…

​

You did not say anything about practices. You said that Mormonism has “points of view” that are illegal. “Points of view” are beliefs, not practices. So yes, you accused Mormonism of having beliefs that are illegal.

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Yes, views that are illegal and now I added practices that are illegal. I don't know what you are harping on about, my words proved exactly that you were not being honest when you said:

Bob Blaylock said:

If you are going to claim that any belief is illegal here, then you have some serious explaining to do.

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So I proved I did not say belief is illegal, end of story IMHO.

Jetboogieman said:

All I can say is, enjoy it while it lasts.

The clock is ticking and in our lifetimes gay marriage will be legal throughout the United States.

And it will be a great day for freedom.

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Perhaps...and when it happens the world will keep turning and life will go on. But again...not the point. Just as people on this site refused to condemn the actions of Rahm Emmanuel and Louis Farrakhan while engaging in their own version of a crusade against Dan Cathy and ChickFilA, people will also continue to attack a small segment of society while ignoring the much larger percentages of society that hold the same position...all because they are a bunch of politically correct chickenfilla ****s.

Fishstyx said:

So does that mean this is off limits as Wright was in 2008? I do recall anyone that brought it up was instantly dubbed a racist.

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That's right, anyone who says anything bad about Romney or anyone he associated with, is racist. :lol:

/debate

Bob Blaylock said:

Not a “requirement” in any meaningful sense, but young men are very strongly encouraged to. I never went on a mission, and neither did my father, but my brother did.

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See, now I learned something today. I don't really know a whole lot about the Mormon religion, except that I don't believe in it. (Have nothing against it either, per se, just not my religion.)

American said:

That's right, anyone who says anything bad about Romney or anyone he associated with, is racist. :lol:

/debate

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Well, I have seen people suggest that Obama is racist against whites. He has plenty of negative things to say about Mitt, which is kind of to be expected what with the election and stuff...

In general, American's dont have a problem with the Mormon church. I know that I certainly dont.
No, what we Americans have a problem with is Romney giving "chartible donations" to the Mormon CHurch that are used as tax write-offs when in fact that money is spent by Alan Ashton to fund poltical causes that Mitt Romney promotes!
That is wrong, that is offensive. It is DISHONEST

CONSagainROMNEY said:

In general, American's dont have a problem with the Mormon church. I know that I certainly dont.
No, what we Americans have a problem with is Romney giving "chartible donations" to the Mormon CHurch that are used as tax write-offs when in fact that money is spent by Alan Ashton to fund poltical causes that Mitt Romney promotes!
That is wrong, that is offensive. It is DISHONEST

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You have yet to establish any credible evidence that charitable donations given by Mr. Romney to the Mormon church were then given to Mr. Ashton for political purposes. You have yet to establish any way that this is even plausible.