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Alan Ashton: Mitt Romney's Rev. Wright???

Hairytic said:
You bring up a very interesting point. I have been around Christians my whole life, so I can only speak from that aspect. I often observed people who went to church and paid their dues, so to speak, but didn't fully agree with the church doctrine. Of that group of religious members, I have always wondered why they continue to be members. My mom used to say she went out of respect for her parents and tradition. She believed in less than half of what her church doctrine dictated. The youth today are not as tradition oriented, and I suspect that is why many Christian groups are seeing a decline in their membership. I am a people observer, so why people do what they do interests me.
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I know quite a few people like that. I'm hoping to pass down the tradition of spendng Sunday afternoons with like minded people worshipping the beauty of the NFL while stuffing our faces to my kids...
 
I'm guessing you don't have kids.
 
CONSagainROMNEY said:
Alan Ashton is the co-founder of Word Perfect Corporation and a former professor at Brigham Young University. He is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) and a grandson of former LDS Church president David O. McKay.

10/28/08 Lindon, UT investing one million dollars in a campaign concerning California's Proposition 8.

Hardball with Chris Matthews
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I'm far from being a Mittens Romney fan, but this just isn't remotely comparable to Wrights racist rants.
 
OpportunityCost said:
Marriage has been a church matter for longer than there has been government. shrug
Morality is the definition of right and wrong in a society, laws are reflected in that. Its silly to suggest otherwise, and foolish.

The foundation of our society is based upon protecting freedoms but criminal and civil code is not. Its strongly based on morality
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Actually, this history of marriage is an interesting one and it has not always been rooted in religion. In fact, in many cultures it was rooted in rule of law. I suggest you study marriage history. If marriage is a religious issue, then why are atheists allowed to get married? Will the religious right eventually try to ban marriage for them as well? As for morality, it isnt as simple as right and wrong. Each of us have a different view of what is moral. This is why you can not base laws on morality. We, as American’s, think it is wrong for China to force abortion on its people. They do not see this as immoral. They see it as a practical way of controlling an already out of control population. In Christian history, it was once moral for the Hebrews to stone homosexuals and adulterers to death. Is that morally right? In the CHristians more recent history, it was moral for the protestent church to gain conffessions through toture from people various and sundry purposes, many of whom we now know today, as they knew then, where innocent of any crime. A very famous example would be Joan of Arc. So, where they acting morally?
 
If Ashton is as bad as Rev. Wright, why aren't we seeing political ads of his speeches in Ohio and Florida?
 
nota bene said:
I'm guessing you don't have kids.
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who me? I have two beautiful children.


Goshin said:
I'm far from being a Mittens Romney fan, but this just isn't remotely comparable to Wrights racist rants.
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The thing is that Rev. Wrigth just said idiotic things. Ashton actually bankrolled anti-gay activities.
 
CONSagainROMNEY said:
who me? I have two beautiful children.




The thing is that Rev. Wrigth just said idiotic things. Ashton actually bankrolled anti-gay activities.
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Anti gay-MARRIAGE activities. not the same thing.
 
MaggieD said:
How about we don't have to listen to a whole interview? How about you TELL us why this guy is in ANY way similar to Rev. Wright and his hate speak. (Your link doesn't go to a video. Or a story.)









Show 'em if ya' got 'em, Consagainromney.
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There are large differences between Obama's connection with wright, and Mittens connection with the church of LDS. Unlike Obama mitt was a Missionary for the church of LDS and even lead a mission over in france after he was involved in a car accident that killed the previous leader. Mittens position in the church allowed him to be sent to france so he could avoid serving in the vietnam war. Unlike obama who sat in the pews hearing sermons, mitt actually represented and lead in his church. Much unlike obama who denounced and separated himself from wright after his political messages were revealed, Mitt has never once denounced the church for their activities. To go earlier into mitt's life and family, his family moved to mexico because they were not able to practice the LDS church's pro-polygamy point of view. Mexico allowed them to have multiple wives, and his family was quite fond of the practice and felt it was so important they gave up their US citizenship. You can say what you want about obama eating the local cuisine of indionesia while he was there, but he never had a practice deemed immoral, sexist, and wrong drilled into his head by his family. Of course, mitt has obeyed US law regarding polygamy, and the church of LDS has declared they will live within the laws of the US despite looking to change them to satisfy their religious teachings.

Both of them probably got some help in their early political lives from their churches. However, obama's help ended when he separated from his church and switched to a different one. Mitt still gives to his church regularly, despite any immoral behavior they endorse and act out, and he has never spoken badly about their using tax free money for the sake of campaigning which is against the law.

if you want to get into philisophical differences the church obama attended saw jesus as their saviour. Mitt and his church worship a fasle god and break a commandment by worshiping Smith over jesus. This would mean that mormonism counts as an extension of the christian faith, like islam, but is not christian because of their worship of false prophets. But if you are not part of the christian faith tree this is all pointless as they all worship the wrong gods, or nonexistent wackyisms.

So it is a bit different considering the immersion Mitt has with his religion, and his admitted devotion to it. Obama seems to regard himself as president first and a christian second. he has admitted that his first priority is for the people of the US who do not abide by the christian faith. Romney seems to feel he is a mormon first and a US citizen second. No offense, but I don't want to be forced to abide by mormon law as much as I do not want to be forced to follow christian law, or any other religious law for that matter. We also know from their participation in prop-8 the mormon church thumbs it's nose at the restriction keeping them from campaigning or donating tax free money to campaigns.
 
CONSagainROMNEY said:
You dont think that activities that are anti-gay marriage are also anti-gay?
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Nope.

Anti-gay: trying to make homosexuality illegal; threatening or assaulting gays; hating gays; similar actions against gays just because they are gay.

Anti-gay-marriage: Does't believe male-male or fem-fem meets the definition and purpose of marriage.


I am largely indifferent to whether Mittens supports or opposes SSM, or is himself indifferent to it.
Personally I think it is a State level issue, inasumuch as marriage is Gov't biz at all.
 
CONSagainROMNEY said:
It seems that Ashton's homophobic hate group and ideology probablly had some influence on Romney. Apparantly Romney met with Ashton in Salt Lake City where they discussed Romney's stance on Gay Marriage. The Church was against it, but Romney realized that he couldn't become Governor of Mass if the church's true position was revealed.
Shortly thereafter the Mormon church sent out verbage that was required reading at all church gatherings- verbage that denounced gay marriage...

Obama's camp knew all this, which surely had plenty to do with Obama coming out in favor of Gay Marriage earlier this year when it looked like Romney had sewn up the nomination
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Ummm, newsflash. Nobody cared about Rev Wright. Why should they care about this guy? Well, except for the Obama camp, who will try to capitalize on it as if Romney was fraternizing with the devil himself.
 
CONSagainROMNEY said:
I know quite a few people like that. I'm hoping to pass down the tradition of spendng Sunday afternoons with like minded people worshipping the beauty of the NFL while stuffing our faces to my kids...
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Hay, I'm all for anything that gathers the family and involves stuffing my face with good food...lol. Now thats a tradition I can stand by.
 
Hairytic said:
Actually, this history of marriage is an interesting one and it has not always been rooted in religion. In fact, in many cultures it was rooted in rule of law. I suggest you study marriage history. If marriage is a religious issue, then why are atheists allowed to get married? Will the religious right eventually try to ban marriage for them as well? As for morality, it isnt as simple as right and wrong. Each of us have a different view of what is moral. This is why you can not base laws on morality. We, as American’s, think it is wrong for China to force abortion on its people. They do not see this as immoral. They see it as a practical way of controlling an already out of control population. In Christian history, it was once moral for the Hebrews to stone homosexuals and adulterers to death. Is that morally right? In the CHristians more recent history, it was moral for the protestent church to gain conffessions through toture from people various and sundry purposes, many of whom we now know today, as they knew then, where innocent of any crime. A very famous example would be Joan of Arc. So, where they acting morally?
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You arent seeing the forest for the trees. Apply the morality of the region or country and it affects that country's laws. Thats all Im saying. Im not trying to turn it into some high minded discussion of right and wrong morals. Im saying morals shape law and thats true no matter the country. Whether those laws and that morality is right or wrong its a fact that they do shape the laws. Again, its foolish to think otherwise.
 
tererun said:
There are large differences between Obama's connection with wright, and Mittens connection with the church of LDS. Unlike Obama mitt was a Missionary for the church of LDS and even lead a mission over in france after he was involved in a car accident that killed the previous leader. Mittens position in the church allowed him to be sent to france so he could avoid serving in the vietnam war. Unlike obama who sat in the pews hearing sermons, mitt actually represented and lead in his church. Much unlike obama who denounced and separated himself from wright after his political messages were revealed, Mitt has never once denounced the church for their activities. To go earlier into mitt's life and family, his family moved to mexico because they were not able to practice the LDS church's pro-polygamy point of view. Mexico allowed them to have multiple wives, and his family was quite fond of the practice and felt it was so important they gave up their US citizenship. You can say what you want about obama eating the local cuisine of indionesia while he was there, but he never had a practice deemed immoral, sexist, and wrong drilled into his head by his family. Of course, mitt has obeyed US law regarding polygamy, and the church of LDS has declared they will live within the laws of the US despite looking to change them to satisfy their religious teachings.

Both of them probably got some help in their early political lives from their churches. However, obama's help ended when he separated from his church and switched to a different one. Mitt still gives to his church regularly, despite any immoral behavior they endorse and act out, and he has never spoken badly about their using tax free money for the sake of campaigning which is against the law.

if you want to get into philisophical differences the church obama attended saw jesus as their saviour. Mitt and his church worship a fasle god and break a commandment by worshiping Smith over jesus. This would mean that mormonism counts as an extension of the christian faith, like islam, but is not christian because of their worship of false prophets. But if you are not part of the christian faith tree this is all pointless as they all worship the wrong gods, or nonexistent wackyisms.

So it is a bit different considering the immersion Mitt has with his religion, and his admitted devotion to it. Obama seems to regard himself as president first and a christian second. he has admitted that his first priority is for the people of the US who do not abide by the christian faith. Romney seems to feel he is a mormon first and a US citizen second. No offense, but I don't want to be forced to abide by mormon law as much as I do not want to be forced to follow christian law, or any other religious law for that matter. We also know from their participation in prop-8 the mormon church thumbs it's nose at the restriction keeping them from campaigning or donating tax free money to campaigns.
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I give you credit for an information-filled post that took some time to put together, so I'll not simply dismiss it out of hand.

I'm sorry, but it doesn't bother me one little iota that Romney is a Mormon. Nor does it bother me that he is devout in his faith. I'm not going to fact check your post. But even if what you say about Romney and the Mormon Church is 100% correct? That "awfulness" you see pales in comparison to Barack Obama & Family sitting in church for twenty freakin' years listening to Rev. Wright spiel his hate-filled racially divisive sermons. Obama only distanced himself from Rev. Wright when it became politically necessary.

I'm really beginning this election is going to be more of a horse race than I at first expected. Obama supporters are getting pretty desperate, in my opinion.
 
Goshin said:
Nope.

Anti-gay: trying to make homosexuality illegal; threatening or assaulting gays; hating gays; similar actions against gays just because they are gay.

Anti-gay-marriage: Does't believe male-male or fem-fem meets the definition and purpose of marriage.


I am largely indifferent to whether Mittens supports or opposes SSM, or is himself indifferent to it.
Personally I think it is a State level issue, inasumuch as marriage is Gov't biz at all.
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Well if you (or someone) thinks that gay people should not be married and that they should not have the same rights as everyone else. That seems like that would be an anti-gay attitude. At the very least it is saying that gay people are not as good as us and they do not have the same rights as us. Right?
 
lizzie said:
Ummm, newsflash. Nobody cared about Rev Wright. Why should they care about this guy? Well, except for the Obama camp, who will try to capitalize on it as if Romney was fraternizing with the devil himself.
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It doesnt really matter if people care about Rev. Wright or if they care about Ashton. What matters is framing the candidates in an unlikable light. And Romney's association with Ashton provides ammunition for Lefties to put Romney back on his heels.
 
OpportunityCost said:
You arent seeing the forest for the trees. Apply the morality of the region or country and it affects that country's laws. Thats all Im saying. Im not trying to turn it into some high minded discussion of right and wrong morals. Im saying morals shape law and thats true no matter the country. Whether those laws and that morality is right or wrong its a fact that they do shape the laws. Again, its foolish to think otherwise.
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Agreed.

For instance, homicide. We assume homicide, with a few very stringent exceptions like self-defense, is immoral... and we make it illegal.

That is a cultural (and religiously rooted) moral judgement.

It is not entirely universal. There are cultures where there are many other justifications for homicide that are widely accepted and rarely punished (ie honor killings in many Islamic nations).

If our culture had been based on, say, Old Norse religious and cultural mores, then many forms of homicide (such as heat-of-passion slayings) would be adjudicated by paying a blood-price to the kin of the deceased rather than prison or execution. If we were Klingon (lol :lamo ) we wouldn't consider killings in fair combat to be homicide at all.

Law is heavily influenced by cultural values and mores, which are heavily influenced by the dominant religious morality of the culture.

As OC said, it is all but self-evident if you take a moment to think on it.
 
tererun said:
No offense, but I don't want to be forced to abide by mormon law as much as I do not want to be forced to follow christian law, or any other religious law for that matter. We also know from their participation in prop-8 the mormon church thumbs it's nose at the restriction keeping them from campaigning or donating tax free money to campaigns.
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That's the heart of this whole topic. If Romney, who we know is a leader within the Mormon church, funds the church's political agnda's, the people should know this before the election. Romney wants most of his life hidden from the people. I am so tired of hearing him say, "You will just have to trust me". No, I don't have to trust him. He has not been proven trust worthy. Like you said, Obama went to a church and his reverand made some outlandish statements. That is a far cry from funding a religious political agenda.
 
CONSagainROMNEY said:
Well if you (or someone) thinks that gay people should not be married and that they should not have the same rights as everyone else. That seems like that would be an anti-gay attitude. At the very least it is saying that gay people are not as good as us and they do not have the same rights as us. Right?
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Some people feel that way. Many do not. I've already had long drawn-out discussions on this matter and don't really care to rehash stale arguments again.

Suffice it to say that many people, perhaps most, do not equate Obama allegedly spending 20 years in the pew listening to Rev Wrights outrageously racist sermons as being equivalent to Mittens' Mormon mentor being opposed to SSM. The Mormon religion is opposed to SSM, so it stands to reason that a prominent LDS figure would be opposed to SSM.

Whether Mittens is or not is a matter of great indifference to me, as I don't see SSM as being a major Federal issue.
 
Hairytic said:
That's the heart of this whole topic. If Romney, who we know is a leader within the Mormon church, funds the church's political agnda's, the people should know this before the election. Romney wants most of his life hidden from the people. I am so tired of hearing him say, "You will just have to trust me". No, I don't have to trust him. He has not been proven trust worthy. Like you said, Obama went to a church and his reverand made some outlandish statements. That is a far cry from funding a religious political agenda.
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Really. Do we get to go back and examine some of the things Obama lent his name to and causes he supported? Because this doesnt look anything like a two way street to me.

On the same note, do we treat Pelosi and Biden differently? They are catholics are they not? Or do they just get a pass?
 
OpportunityCost said:
Really. Do we get to go back and examine some of the things Obama lent his name to and causes he supported? Because this doesnt look anything like a two way street to me.

On the same note, do we treat Pelosi and Biden differently? They are catholics are they not? Or do they just get a pass?
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I am all for full disclosure. This is why we rely on the media to investigate and bring issues to light. Once an issue is brought to light we can look at it and make a more informed choice. Obama's back ground has been fully investigated, which gives me something to go on when making my choice on who to vote for. Romney's lack of cooperation in showing full disclosure is troubling. He says, "Trust me". That’s the same thing he said when he was running for governor. When his residency status was in question, he said "Trust me." Now we know he was a resident of Utah based on his income tax filings at the time and had them retroactively changed so he could remain a governor.
I don't know what Pelosi or Biden has to do with this issue, but I want all candidates treated the same way. The more information I have, the better informed I will be when it is time to vote.
 
CONSagainROMNEY said:
It doesnt really matter if people care about Rev. Wright or if they care about Ashton. What matters is framing the candidates in an unlikable light. And Romney's association with Ashton provides ammunition for Lefties to put Romney back on his heels.
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Ashton is not in the same league as Rev. Wright.
 
Hairytic said:
I am all for full disclosure. This is why we rely on the media to investigate and bring issues to light. Once an issue is brought to light we can look at it and make a more informed choice. Obama's back ground has been fully investigated, which gives me something to go on when making my choice on who to vote for. Romney's lack of cooperation in showing full disclosure is troubling. He says, "Trust me". That’s the same thing he said when he was running for governor. When his residency status was in question, he said "Trust me." Now we know he was a resident of Utah based on his income tax filings at the time and had them retroactively changed so he could remain a governor.
I don't know what Pelosi or Biden has to do with this issue, but I want all candidates treated the same way. The more information I have, the better informed I will be when it is time to vote.
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In what ****ing world exactly do the media investigate any significant portion of Obama's life? Cause it sure aint this one.

Rest of your post is tin foil hat fodder.
 
johnny_rebson said:
Ashton is not in the same league as Rev. Wright.
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He is not inthe same league in terms of his importance in the wedge issues they excite (racism and same sex marriage). But in terms of being a potential problem for Romney, Ashton could even be bigger than Wright. The reason is because of Romney's taxes. If it turns out that Romney have large sums of money to Ashton's anti-same sex marriage group under the guise of "tithings" or "charitable donations" and that money was actually used for a political activist group, then that could spell huge trouble for ROmney if that came out before the election.
 
CONSagainROMNEY said:
He is not inthe same league in terms of his importance in the wedge issues they excite (racism and same sex marriage). But in terms of being a potential problem for Romney, Ashton could even be bigger than Wright. The reason is because of Romney's taxes. If it turns out that Romney have large sums of money to Ashton's anti-same sex marriage group under the guise of "tithings" or "charitable donations" and that money was actually used for a political activist group, then that could spell huge trouble for ROmney if that came out before the election.
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Those who are single issue voters based on gay marriage/moral issues have already made up their mind who to vote for.
 
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