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Tax cuts for the rich

Bobcat said:
"fair" to most people means that everyone pays the same rate.
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Most people no. People that think a simple fraction somehow has some underlying meaning yes. Nothing in this world is "flat". Why on earth should our taxes be? Hmmm let me see, If I take 2lbs of air out of my tire - hmmm - 5%, If, I eat one of those 20 bananas- yes I knew it 5%! Air does equal bananas! How did nobody tell me this!?? I could have been eating air all this time!!
 
pdog said:
Most people no. People that think a simple fraction somehow has some underlying meaning yes. Nothing in this world is "flat". Why on earth should our taxes be? Hmmm let me see, If I take 2lbs of air out of my tire - hmmm - 5%, If, I eat one of those 20 bananas- yes I knew it 5%! Air does equal bananas! How did nobody tell me this!?? I could have been eating air all this time!!
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your analogy is foolish.

Is sales tax "fair" or should a rich guy pay 20% sales tax and a poor guy pay 1%? Thats what you want for income tax
 
Bobcat said:
your analogy is foolish.

Is sales tax "fair" or should a rich guy pay 20% sales tax and a poor guy pay 1%? Thats what you want for income tax
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In a perfect world sales tax would be progressive -- as it is to an extent in most VAT countries where a progressive income tax offsets the regressive sales tax, and/or rebates are implemented for lower income individuals. Most national sales tax plans include similar devices.
 
AdamT said:
In a perfect world sales tax would be progressive -- as it is to an extent in most VAT countries where a progressive income tax offsets the regressive sales tax, and/or rebates are implemented for lower income individuals. Most national sales tax plans include similar devices.
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Its already progressive. the person who buys the most stuff pays the most sales tax.

You clearly support a marxist redistribuionist form of government, so please stop calling yourself and liberal, you are way to the left of most liberals.
 
Bobcat said:
your analogy is foolish.

Is sales tax "fair" or should a rich guy pay 20% sales tax and a poor guy pay 1%? Thats what you want for income tax
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No, it's not foolish, it's plain stupid - but it's exactly what you're doing by taking X * Y * Z * .05 and A * B * C * .05 and thinking there's some magical equality in those two equations simply because they share a common value. I'll repeat - there is nothing a basic fraction says about "fair".
 
Bobcat said:
Its already progressive. the person who buys the most stuff pays the most sales tax.
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Progressive is not "more" or a higher fraction. Please consult a dictionary.

Bobcat said:
You clearly support a marxist redistribuionist form of government, so please stop calling yourself and liberal, you are way to the left of most liberals.
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Well welcome to the good ole' United States of Marxism then, because a progressive system is what we've had for over 80 years and as it weakens so does our economy. Go ahead - vote for another 7 point reduction in the upper bracket. The reductions over the last 30 years are really working great for us so by all means keep it up.
 
Masada said:
I know precisely what Obama is proposing. Here, let me let him tell you, instead of you having to take my word for it:

In his own words:

"Too many folks still don't have a sense that tomorrow will be better than today. And so, the question in this election is which way do we go?" "Do we go forward towards a new vision of an America in which prosperity is shared? Or do we go backward to the same policies that got us in the mess in the first place?" "I believe we have to go forward,"

I believe it was just yesterday that Obama said this. Yes, indeed, I know precisely what he's proposing. Raise taxes on the wealthy, in order to "share prosperity". Marx would be so proud of his little protege......
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If you call Obama's ideas marxist, what do you call it when Republicans pass legislation that dramactically benefits the wealthy more than the middle/working class amounting to a massive redistribution of wealth that favors the upper class? Let me guess.....Fair.
 
pdog said:
No, it's not foolish, it's plain stupid - but it's exactly what you're doing by taking X * Y * Z * .05 and A * B * C * .05 and thinking there's some magical equality in those two equations simply because they share a common value. I'll repeat - there is nothing a basic fraction says about "fair".
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Ok, then you tell me what you mean when you say "fair share" who defines "fair" and who defines "share"?

you seem to think its "fair" if one person pays nothing for the govt services he receives and another pays 25% for the services that go to the first guy. How is that "fair"?

seems to me that "fair" treats everyone the same. Our laws are "fair" no one is above the law (except maybe obama) but generally our laws treat everyone "fairly"

a "fair" tax system would be one where every citizens pays his proportional "share" not some made up "share" which is intended to spread the wealth by govt dictate.


I get just as pissed at greedy rich people as you, almost everyone in hollywood pisses me off whenever they open their mouths. But I don't want to take their money and give it to my friends who are barely making it as shrimpers or crabbers.
 
disneydude said:
If you call Obama's ideas marxist, what do you call it when Republicans pass legislation that dramactically benefits the wealthy more than the middle/working class amounting to a massive redistribution of wealth that favors the upper class? Let me guess.....Fair.
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got any examples to support your talking point?
 
Bobcat said:
got any examples to support your talking point?
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Sure....Reagan/Bush, GWB, Paul Ryan. Take a look at what Reagan did, what GWB did and what Ryan presents in his plan. All three amounted to tax cuts that overwhelmingly favored the weathy and if you look at the distribution of wealth and the history of this country, you will see that each result or will result in more wealth in the hands of the wealthy and less in the middle/working class. That ALSO is called "redistribution of wealth", although I know your ilk don't want to admit that.
 
Bobcat said:
what impact does it have on the 50% who pay zero federal income tax? what exactly does "pay your fair share" mean to you?
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More blood out of a stone nonsense. Give those people a raise and THEN they will gladly pay taxes. The high number of people that don't make enough to pay taxes is just the result of 30 years of wage stagnation.
 
iguanaman said:
More blood out of a stone nonsense. Give those people a raise and THEN they will gladly pay taxes. The high number of people that don't make enough to pay taxes is just the result of 30 years of wage stagnation.
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wages are a function of supply and demand, just like the price of a bag of cat food. people with more skills get more pay because there is more demand for their labor. those with fewer skills get paid less because there is less demand for their labor. those are the cold hard facts of life, your socialist utopia will never exist except in the minds of people like you.
 
disneydude said:
If you call Obama's ideas marxist, what do you call it when Republicans pass legislation that dramactically benefits the wealthy more than the middle/working class amounting to a massive redistribution of wealth that favors the upper class? Let me guess.....Fair.
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No, I wouldn't use the word "fair". I'de use the word "smart". The working class does not create jobs. Jobs are what is needed in this country. And the main reason jobs aren't being created, is because of the man-child sitting in the White House, along with his cronies over at the EPA, the SEC, and the IRS. In order for wealth and prosperity to be shared, wealth and prosperity first must be created. The government DOES NOT create wealth and prosperity. So, they are seeking to TAKE the wealth of others, and give it to those who had little to no part in creating that wealth.

Tell me, what did YOU DO that attributed one ounce of Mitt Romney's success? Name one. You can't, because you didn't have a single thing to do with his success. So now tell me why you, or anyone else, has any claim whatsoever over his success?

The thing you need to realize, is that the only way the middle/working class is going to to better economically, is by doing it themselves. Government programs do not elevate people economically. This is easily proven. Welfare does not elevate people from poverty, it actually keeps them there. Tax breaks do not elevate the working class to the upper class. Unemployment benefits do not elevate people into having 200k a year jobs.

So, how does a middle/working class person elevate themselves economically? They seize opportunities that are available to every single American in this country. They get a good education. They work hard. They invest wisely. They save money. They plan for their economic futures. They take a risk here and there. Those opportunities exist RIGHT NOW. Raising the taxes on the rich doesn't make any of these things easier for the working class. Wanna make things easier on the working class? Work to lower fuel prices. Work to lower food prices. Encourage domestic oil production so that we can ease the burdens at the pumps. Encourage farming in America, so we can continue to have cheap food. Keep taxes low on everyone, because everyone contributes to the economy, including the rich. Lower the corporate tax rate, so that companies are more enticed to invest in operating their business here in America, which will create jobs.

Whether you like it or not, corporations create jobs. Lots of them. Corporations also work for profits too. You must understand that they are going to seek profits no matter what. Question is, do you want them gaining profits while employing Chinese workers? Or do you want them making profits in America where they are providing the working class with much needed jobs?

It's time to face reality liberals. Companies don't operate to lose money, they operate to MAKE money. So let them make money!!! But let them do it here, instead of China. We can entice companies to set up shop here. But our tax system is not competitive. Make profits easier to make in America, and businesses will do business here. At the same time, they will be providing MUCH NEEDED jobs for Americans looking for work. But liberals want companies to stay here, make less profits, and hire more people. It's flat out insanity.
 
Bobcat said:
wages are a function of supply and demand, just like the price of a bag of cat food. people with more skills get more pay because there is more demand for their labor. those with fewer skills get paid less because there is less demand for their labor. those are the cold hard facts of life, your socialist utopia will never exist except in the minds of people like you.
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At least you shut up about them not paying taxes. Only fools think that wages are based only on supply and demand. There would be no reason for unions if that were the case.
 
iguanaman said:
At least you shut up about them not paying taxes. Only fools think that wages are based only on supply and demand. There would be no reason for unions if that were the case.
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there is no need for unions, all the things that unions protect workers from are covered by law now.


why does a surgeon get more pay than a burger flipper if not supply and demand?
 
Masada said:
No, I wouldn't use the word "fair". I'de use the word "smart". The working class does not create jobs. Jobs are what is needed in this country. And the main reason jobs aren't being created, is because of the man-child sitting in the White House, along with his cronies over at the EPA, the SEC, and the IRS. In order for wealth and prosperity to be shared, wealth and prosperity first must be created. The government DOES NOT create wealth and prosperity. So, they are seeking to TAKE the wealth of others, and give it to those who had little to no part in creating that wealth.

Tell me, what did YOU DO that attributed one ounce of Mitt Romney's success? Name one. You can't, because you didn't have a single thing to do with his success. So now tell me why you, or anyone else, has any claim whatsoever over his success?

Liberals want to stop paying companies to send jobs overseas. Obama has supported tax breaks for those that hire new American workers. Doesn't that make more sense than the other?
The thing you need to realize, is that the only way the middle/working class is going to to better economically, is by doing it themselves. Government programs do not elevate people economically. This is easily proven. Welfare does not elevate people from poverty, it actually keeps them there. Tax breaks do not elevate the working class to the upper class. Unemployment benefits do not elevate people into having 200k a year jobs.

So, how does a middle/working class person elevate themselves economically? They seize opportunities that are available to every single American in this country. They get a good education. They work hard. They invest wisely. They save money. They plan for their economic futures. They take a risk here and there. Those opportunities exist RIGHT NOW. Raising the taxes on the rich doesn't make any of these things easier for the working class. Wanna make things easier on the working class? Work to lower fuel prices. Work to lower food prices. Encourage domestic oil production so that we can ease the burdens at the pumps. Encourage farming in America, so we can continue to have cheap food. Keep taxes low on everyone, because everyone contributes to the economy, including the rich. Lower the corporate tax rate, so that companies are more enticed to invest in operating their business here in America, which will create jobs.

Whether you like it or not, corporations create jobs. Lots of them. Corporations also work for profits too. You must understand that they are going to seek profits no matter what. Question is, do you want them gaining profits while employing Chinese workers? Or do you want them making profits in America where they are providing the working class with much needed jobs?

It's time to face reality liberals. Companies don't operate to lose money, they operate to MAKE money. So let them make money!!! But let them do it here, instead of China. We can entice companies to set up shop here. But our tax system is not competitive. Make profits easier to make in America, and businesses will do business here. At the same time, they will be providing MUCH NEEDED jobs for Americans looking for work. But liberals want companies to stay here, make less profits, and hire more people. It's flat out insanity.
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Everyone that shopped at Staples or Sports Authority contributed to Romney's sucess at Bain. Those that were laid off when he closed other businesses did too.
The reality that Conservatives resist is that without middle class spending, most corporations would be bankrupt.
Liberals want to stop paying companies for shipping jobs overseas but support tax breaks for those that hire new American workers. Obama has a bill that would do just that but it won't get voted on in the House. Why?
 
TurtleDude said:
the rich are the only group that pay a HIGHER SHARE of the income tax BURDEN than their share of the INCOME.
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And yet still have vastly higher accumulated wealth than any disparity in taxation could touch. You keep hyperfocusing on income and taxation, while ignoring standing wealth. So what if the highest 5% pays a larger share of taxes than their share of income. They have 2/3 of all the wealth in the nation, while the bottom 80% has a single digit share of the wealth.

What possible level of taxation could make a dent in this?
IfLandDividedLikeWealth3.jpg
 
Bobcat said:
there is no need for unions, all the things that unions protect workers from are covered by law now.


why does a surgeon get more pay than a burger flipper if not supply and demand?
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In part it's probably because, e.g., a heart transplant costs more than a quarter pounder.
 
Nothing effects the pocketbooks of the middle and working class like FOOD AND ENERGY. The pricing of these two essential items for our economy effect the middle and working classes far more than any other class.

Now, I want you to read what Obama thinks about inflating the price of MEAT:

Examiner Editorial: To protect ethanol, Obama seeks to inflate meat prices | WashingtonExaminer.com

I want you to remember what Obama also said about energy prices, and how his policies would seek to "necessarily cause energy prices to skyrocket".

The two things that effect the pocketbooks of the middle class the most, Obama WANTS to increase the price of. He's no friend to the middle and working class. He's a friend to Green Energy, Ethanol production, and social engineering programs that hurt the working class. But he actually believes he can shift blame over onto the rich, the corporations, and the top 1% of wage earners.

Liberals, please wake up. Policies which drive up the cost of food and energy do more damage to the middle and working class than people like Mitt Romney sheltering money in the Cayman Islands does. It's time to end this social engineering project, and get serious about creating jobs, and lowering commodity prices here in America. There's nothing we can do about a drought year, but the government buying up all these commodities only ensures a shortage for next year, which protects ethanol production, while diverting corn away from food production.

He would rather see $9/pound hamburger meat in America, than see corn averted to food production over ethanol production. WAKE UP LIBERALS!!!
 
Masada said:
The working class does not create jobs.
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On the contrary. The working class pays all the money that ends up in peoples' salaries. They buy the vast majority of products and services. Without consumers to consume, what company will expand to do more of whatever it does, thus needing to hire more people? The notion that business is only held back by a lack of capital assumes that there are lots of consumers who want to buy things, but have nothing to buy. Does that really square away with anything you've observed?
 
iguanaman said:
Everyone that shopped at Staples or Sports Authority contributed to Romney's sucess at Bain. Those that were laid off when he closed other businesses did too.
The reality that Conservatives resist is that without middle class spending, most corporations would be bankrupt.
Liberals want to stop paying companies for shipping jobs overseas but support tax breaks for those that hire new American workers. Obama has a bill that would do just that but it won't get voted on in the House. Why?
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Because of the strings he and liberals attach to the bill. Yes, tax breaks for companies who hire here in America is smart. But he uses that to also push through raising taxes on business owners who make more than 200k a year, but still file taxes as individuals. MIddle class spending IS CRUCIAL. But the Obama policies drive up the cost of food, and energy, the two major expenditures that effect the middle class spending the most. A larger percentage of middle class incomes are eaten up because of rising gas and food prices, and Obama's policies INTENTIONALLY drive the cost of those goods UP.
 
Paschendale said:
On the contrary. The working class pays all the money that ends up in peoples' salaries. They buy the vast majority of products and services. Without consumers to consume, what company will expand to do more of whatever it does, thus needing to hire more people? The notion that business is only held back by a lack of capital assumes that there are lots of consumers who want to buy things, but have nothing to buy. Does that really square away with anything you've observed?
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Read my above post. Yes, the middle class is responsible for MOST of the consumption of goods in this country. And Obama is intentionally inflating the cost of those goods through his stupid policies.

Disposable income is what I'm talking about. Because food and energy prices are at record highs, a middle class family has less disposable income to be spent on other things. It takes a greater percentage of their net income, just to put food on the table and gas in their cars so they can get to work. But Obama refuses to make it easier to increase domestic oil production. He announced today that the government is going to buy up all these commodities, which ensures a shortage for next year, which will once again raise the price of meat. All for what? To protect GREEN ENERGY.

So, it's perfectly clear. He's willing to inflate the price of FOOD, just to ensure that more corn goes to ethanol production than to food production. What hurts the middle class more, the price of food? Or the price of ethanol?

Get real....these are real dollars we are talking about. Just two short years ago, a pound of hamburger meat cost $1.87/lb. Today, it costs about $4.87/lb. This has much more of an effect on the middle class pocket book than the price of a gallon of ethanol. 100% of americans eat food. While less than 2% utilize ethanol as a fuel source. Time to wake up to reality, and listen to this man-child in his own words. He wants to inflate the price of beef to protect ethanol production, and he wants to see a gradual increase in energy prices. He's said it himself. Translation: Obama is horrible for the middle class.
 
iliveonramen said:
You don't pay capital gains taxes on a 401k or IRA. They are taxed as regular income.
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correct, if you leave it there it is taxed as regular income when you take it out. If you take it out and put it in an investment account as many people do at retirement then it becomes subject to capital gains taxes.
 
Per government MANDATE, 40% of corn production is to be used for ethanol production. And for the first time in our nation's history, more corn goes toward the production of ethanol than it does food production. Yet, fewer than 2% of Americans utilize ethanol as a fuel source, while 100% of Americans eat food.

Wanna know why the middle class cant afford to save money these days? Perhaps it has a lot to do with a 186% increase in fuel costs, and a 222% increase in food prices over the past 3 years. What caused the rise in pricing? Why don't you smart liberals just take Obama's word for it. His policies are responsible for that.

Listen to any economist in this country, and they will tell you that food and energy prices continue to be the biggest burden on the middle/working class. And we have a President, who actually has, AS A MATTER OF POLICY, a philosophy to raise gas prices and raise food prices. Then liberals claim he cares about the middle class????? Dear lord....I don't think liberals have two brain cells combined sometimes.

The solution is so simple it's actually funny.....DRILL HERE, DRILL NOW, AND USE CORN FOR FOOD!!!

Someone put me on a stage in a debate with Obama. I would love to ask him why he wants to inflate the price of beef, and why he wants to raise the price of energy in this country, and if he realizes higher food and energy prices place a tremendous burden on the middle and working class.....
 
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