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Ryan Plan: Take from the POOR and give to the RICH???[W:97]

Re: Ryan Plan: Take from the POOR and give to the RICH???

rocket88 said:
Nobody yet in this thread has suggested raising taxes. The issues pointed out are Ryan's support of government subsidizing the oil industry.

Should the government be handing out tax money to oil companies?
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you really think any republican on this forum will answer this question? lol
 
Re: Ryan Plan: Take from the POOR and give to the RICH???

Vallista said:
you really think any republican on this forum will answer this question? lol
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Tax credits are not subsidies or "handing out tax money to oil companies"

the oil industry, and every other energy industry gets to write off (not pay taxes on) exploration and development expenses. This is done to encourage those companies to look for new sources of natural energy and to create new forms of energy. the solar and wind industries get the same kinds of credits.

If you knew anything about the topic we could discuss it, but its quite obvious that all you know is what huff puff and kos have told you.
 
Re: Ryan Plan: Take from the POOR and give to the RICH???

Bobcat said:
first, the loans have not been paid back
second, GM is now making cars in Mexico and China
third, Bankruptsy would have resulted in the break up of a huge inefficient company into smaller efficient units. Instead the UAW and the taxpayers now own GM
fourth, GM's sales and profits are sinking
fifth, Bain did it with its own money, obozo did it with OUR money.

you are correct, they are not similar in any way.
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AUto industries HAVE paid back the loans:
Chrysler Repays Billions, Was Bailout Worth It? : NPR

Federal Bankruptcy Judge: Bailout Was Only Way to Save Chrysler - ABC News


If you agree with Romney's vulture capitalist approach to the Auto Industry bail-out that would have callously allowed THE symbol of AMerican Greatness to wither and die, then you are simply UNAMERICAN!
 
Re: Ryan Plan: Take from the POOR and give to the RICH???

TurtleDude said:
you seem to not understand what the term GIVE means.

taking less from those who earn it is not "giving"

of course if you believe all wealth belongs to the government that would explain your delusion
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Governments job is to tax to perform the functions that the people it represents want. If you tax cuts....without cutting the functions of government...it sure as **** is a handout based on the backs of future tax payers. So yes...Romney was given tax breaks that I will be paying for the next 40 something years.
 
Re: Ryan Plan: Take from the POOR and give to the RICH???

CONSagainROMNEY said:
No, not identical at all. THe Auto Industry did NOT go belly up. They simply got a government loan, implemented a tighter business model, turned their business around AND PAID BACK their loan. The loss of jobs if the Auto Industry would have gone belly up (as vulture capitalist Romney callously and tellingly called for) would have be a catastrophy. As a Fiscal COnservative I have learned that there are times that goverment spending is neccesary to keep AMerica great - and the Auto Industry loans that were paid back was one of those times.

There is no comparison to that and what the Gordon Gekko crowd at Bain did.
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I see you have no understanding of economics. The company went bankrupt, wiping out shareholders and bondholders, that is going belly up. It could not pay it's bills. Instead of private citizens owning GM, we now have Government owning a big chunk of GM. Your understanding of GM not going belly up, is ludicrous.
 
Re: Ryan Plan: Take from the POOR and give to the RICH???

VanceMack said:
Bain didnt buy these wonderful uber successful businesses. Uber successful businesses werent for sale. They bought struggling businesses, reorganized their capabilities, and made them successful. Meanwhile, The fed laid people off, shipped jobs overseas, killed pension plans for non-union employees, killed dealerships all in the name of 'saving' GM.

You would think Ford would have taken advantage of the GM style buyout. Heck...if they had, they would still be in business today.

"Cons" :lamo
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Ford is out of business? guess I missed that. Last time I checked their sales were way up and they were booking profits for their shareholders. Meanwhile GM is losing sales and profits while building cars in mexico and china--with non-union labor. Great deal obozo
 
Re: Ryan Plan: Take from the POOR and give to the RICH???

Interesting. Even though all the sources cited are purely partisan garbage, I bothered to actually read them. So...a couple of things.

1-even though Ryan has come out in opposition to the tax cuts, the biased article 'speculates' he (like every democrat and republican in congress and probably anyone on this site with a 401k) wouldnt REALLY because he profits from oil companies..

2-I wonder if people can define 'subsidy' and how the poor are 'giving' oil companies anything.
 
Re: Ryan Plan: Take from the POOR and give to the RICH???

CONSagainROMNEY said:
AUto industries HAVE paid back the loans:
Chrysler Repays Billions, Was Bailout Worth It? : NPR

Federal Bankruptcy Judge: Bailout Was Only Way to Save Chrysler - ABC News



If you agree with Romney's vulture capitalist approach to the Auto Industry bail-out that would have callously allowed THE symbol of AMerican Greatness to wither and die, then you are simply UNAMERICAN!
Click to expand...

We were talking about GM, not Chrysler. try to keep up.
 
Re: Ryan Plan: Take from the POOR and give to the RICH???

Bobcat said:
Ford is out of business? guess I missed that. Last time I checked their sales were way up and they were booking profits for their shareholders. Meanwhile GM is losing sales and profits while building cars in mexico and china--with non-union labor. Great deal obozo
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Whaaaaaaaaat? But...he...he SAVED the auto industry!!! How can that be???
 
Re: Ryan Plan: Take from the POOR and give to the RICH???

VanceMack said:
Not exactly the title of your OP, is it. Please post where Ryan is taking from the poor and giving to the rich. Please show where republicans or the rich are stealing the poors pennies.

The Ryan plan is meant to FIX the problems we are currently facing. He is to date the only one realistically attempting to address the problem. With a current debt of 16 trillion and climbing and pending crisis in all of those government giveaway programs, SOMEONE better actually engage the problem. Funny...a fiscal conservative would know that. But then...a fiscal conservative wouldnt be spouting off about how the republicans were the party of 'no' and should rubber stamp the presidents spending programs. Come on...be honest...that name you go by...thats bull****...isnt it. You are nothing more than a typical garden variety very liberal person hoping to show how 'real' republicans oppose Romney. Thats just...sad.
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That is fine, then why won't Ryan, Paul, Romney or anyone republican also cut subsidies for farm, oil, energy, foreign aid, military and etc? I mean come on. If republicans are really serious about cutting welfare for public, then it also fair to cut subsidies that I mention.
 
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Re: Ryan Plan: Take from the POOR and give to the RICH???

CONSagainROMNEY said:
The auto industry was on the verge of bankruptcy. But the family-run businesses and companies that RINO Romney and the Gordon Gekkos at Bain went out and Vulture-capitilized were companies that were profitable and had alot going for them.
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GM did go bankrupt. All the shareholders and bond holders lost it all. That is going bankrupt.
 
Re: Ryan Plan: Take from the POOR and give to the RICH???

CONSagainROMNEY said:
AUto industries HAVE paid back the loans:
Chrysler Repays Billions, Was Bailout Worth It? : NPR

Federal Bankruptcy Judge: Bailout Was Only Way to Save Chrysler - ABC News


If you agree with Romney's vulture capitalist approach to the Auto Industry bail-out that would have callously allowed THE symbol of AMerican Greatness to wither and die, then you are simply UNAMERICAN!
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It's your own opinion that union owned car companies are the "symbol of American greatness".

What is UNAMERICAN is telling a company that they can't make a certain amount of money. Or that they can't conduct business privately without the government intervening. THAT is what is UNAMERICAN.

The Bain approach was to take struggling companies, who had gotten themselves in financial messes, and either fix it and save it, or scrap it because there wasn't anything to salvage. I know this hurts your little feelings, but some companies FAIL. Not every single business venture in America is going to succeed. Why you think it should is part of your Marxist wet dream to be "fair" to everyone.

What's fair about bailing GM out only to turn control of a once private company over to a union that donates 95% to Democrats in Washington? What's fair about eliminating 40,000 pension plans, while fulfilling union pension plans 100%????

Do you ever think? Or do you just parrot away the talking points of the Marxists?
 
Re: Ryan Plan: Take from the POOR and give to the RICH???

Born Free said:
I see you have no understanding of economics. The company went bankrupt, wiping out shareholders and bondholders, that is going belly up. It could not pay it's bills. Instead of private citizens owning GM, we now have Government owning a big chunk of GM. Your understanding of GM not going belly up, is ludicrous.
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It took exactly two posts of his to see that he is not in fact a conservative in any way shape or form. He is a bleeding heart oh ya gotta love em died in the wool Obama supporter.
 
Re: Ryan Plan: Take from the POOR and give to the RICH???

iliveonramen said:
Governments job is to tax to perform the functions that the people it represents want. If you tax cuts....without cutting the functions of government...it sure as **** is a handout based on the backs of future tax payers. So yes...Romney was given tax breaks that I will be paying for the next 40 something years.
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So if the people want govt to provide their food, housing, clothing, cars, and booze, then the govt should just raise taxes sufficiently to cover all of those things that people want? Then the question becomes, who would work and pay taxes if the govt was providing all that stuff free?

you libs never think things all the way through. neither did Marx, Mao, Hitler, or Castro. Socialism never works
 
Re: Ryan Plan: Take from the POOR and give to the RICH???

Masada said:
I just puked in my mouth a little.....

Uhhh, how do you feel about the government renegotiating all the labor agreements, where ultimately the unions wound up with controlling interest in GM, while the executives and majority stock holders were literally forced to take 30 cents on the dollar for their previous investments?

Also, how do you feel about the 40,000 GM employees, who were non-union employees, who had their pensions completely eliminated alltogether, while the pensions of union workers were fulfilled to the contractual maximums?

This wasn't about saving GM. GM would of been saved through standard bankruptcy proceedings. The government getting involved was about transferring power and wealth to the labor unions, and away from the private company. Did you even know that the auto workers union owned the majority of GM now? Did you know about the pensions of the non-union workers? Did you know about the Securities and Exchange Commission forcing the majority owners of GM to take 30 cents on the dollar for their vested interests?

I bet not.....you're just another parrot, that frankly, I'm tired of hearing squak about Bain capital, when the federal government is caught with it's hands in the cookie jar in GM, Solyndra, and Goldman Sachs, along with a few others.

You don't like rich guys? Then don't vote period. Cause they're all rich guys. You don't like Bain, then place your bets on Uncle Sam and the ever growing federal government. Cause they have such a great track record with job creation, wealth creation, and what not. Ya, place your hopes in dreams in Obama. He'll start creating jobs one of these days right?
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So if GM would have filed bankruptcy, who do you think would have gotten SCREWED then? Some ONE always gets screwed in a bankruptcy - everyone that GM owed money to.
Which is exactly one of the ways that the Gordon Gekkos at Bain made profits. They exploit the debts of family businesses and companies by filing bankruptcy and gutting the business for all it can get.
Look, I was never a big supporter of the Auto Industry bail outs and I'm not here to defend it - but to compare it in any way shape or form to the Vulture Capitalism from Bain is off the reservation Tonto. Vulture Capitalism is UNAMERICAN!!!

VanceMack said:
Bain didnt buy these wonderful uber successful businesses. Uber successful businesses werent for sale. They bought struggling businesses, reorganized their capabilities, and made them successful.
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Wrong, Bain RUINED successful companies like DDi Corp, KB Toys, UniMac’s etc...

http://www.winningourfuture.com/

http://sandiegofreepress.org/2012/0...ed-pension-funds-and-paid-himself-handsomely/

http://www.salon.com/2012/07/18/dark_side_of_a_bain_success/
 
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Re: Ryan Plan: Take from the POOR and give to the RICH???

Vallista said:
Thats fine, then why won't Ryan, Paul, Romney or anyone republican also cut subsidies for farm, oil, energy, foreign aid, military and etc? I mean come on. If republican are really serious about cutting welfare for public, then it also fair to cut subsidies that I mention.
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The government should cut ALL subsidies. However your terminology is a bit skewed. The taxpayers arent giving oil companies anything. They are allowing them to keep more of their earnings in return for more exploration and production. Read the sources you cited. I get that in the rush to get out anti-Ryan threads following his announcement actually VETTING any of the articles or sources isnt realistic. Then again...why would you want to?
 
Re: Ryan Plan: Take from the POOR and give to the RICH???

Vallista said:
Thats fine, then why won't Ryan, Paul, Romney or anyone republican also cut subsidies for farm, oil, energy, foreign aid, military and etc? I mean come on. If republican are really serious about cutting welfare for public, then it also fair to cut subsidies that I mention.
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For the last time, tax breaks are not subsidies. Farming does recieve subsidies. Why? Because of government regulations which have made it too expensive to farm. The government doesn't control the commodity market. So, when a bushel of wheat brings $4 at market, that isn't enough to offset the expense of the farmer to produce a bushel of wheat. Therefore, the government subsidizes it. Because government is responsible for driving up the cost of producing the wheat in the first place.

Get with the program man!!!!! By the way, wanna know what the largest subsidy to farmers is for???? TO NOT FARM!!! But to plant their acreage into CRP, or natural grasses. The largest subsidy a farmer can get IS FOR NOT FARMING AT ALL!!!!!
 
Re: Ryan Plan: Take from the POOR and give to the RICH???

CONSagainROMNEY said:
So if GM would have filed bankruptcy, who do you think would have gotten SCREWED then? Some ONE always gets screwed in a bankruptcy - everyone that GM owed money to.
Which is exactly one of the ways that the Gordon Gekkos at Bain made profits. They exploit the debts of family businesses and companies by filing bankruptcy and gutting the business for all it can get.
Look, I was never a big supporter of the Auto Industry bail outs and I'm not here to defend it - but to compare it in any way shape or form to the Vulture Capitalism from Bain is off the reservation Tonto. Vulture Capitalism is UNAMERICAN!!!
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Bain is a private firm that deals with it's clients USING THEIR OWN MONEY! Bain isn't using billions and billions of TAX PAYER DOLLARS. They risk their own capital. They risk their own reputations. They risk their own bottom lines. They aren't gambling with tax payer dollars. SO WHY DO YOU CARE??????

Is it being a vulture to close a company that is unable to be saved? Or is that just reality man????
 
Re: Ryan Plan: Take from the POOR and give to the RICH???

Masada said:
Allow me to educate you. .....
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Sorry but when you ideas of "education" is spouting off talking points and propoganda...it isn't worthy of the time. You've already exposed yourself of this by posting "pants on fire" lies that are simply myths that right-wingers hope will become perpetuated....sorry but just because you repeat them over and over....they don't become truths.
 
Re: Ryan Plan: Take from the POOR and give to the RICH???

Bobcat said:
So if the people want govt to provide their food, housing, clothing, cars, and booze, then the govt should just raise taxes sufficiently to cover all of those things that people want? Then the question becomes, who would work and pay taxes if the govt was providing all that stuff free?

you libs never think things all the way through. neither did Marx, Mao, Hitler, or Castro. Socialism never works
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Ummm...yes...if the people voted they wanted those things then yes the government as an entity has a responsibility to pay for it. Just like if people wanted a government that only consisted of a military they would still have to tax themselves to pay for it.

I don't see how your question in anyway refutes my statement. The argument over why people work and incentives is different than the government having an obligation to pay it's debts and services it provides. Not very conservative of you to disagree with that.
 
Re: Ryan Plan: Take from the POOR and give to the RICH???

CONSagainROMNEY said:
So if GM would have filed bankruptcy, who do you think would have gotten SCREWED then? Some ONE always gets screwed in a bankruptcy - everyone that GM owed money to.
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You just don't get economics. All the shareholders (those are the people that own the company) lost everything, all the bond holders (those are the people that lent GM money) lost everything, and all the companies they owed money too.
 
Re: Ryan Plan: Take from the POOR and give to the RICH???

Masada said:
Bain is a private firm that deals with it's clients USING THEIR OWN MONEY! Bain isn't using billions and billions of TAX PAYER DOLLARS. They risk their own capital. They risk their own reputations. They risk their own bottom lines. They aren't gambling with tax payer dollars. SO WHY DO YOU CARE??????
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Savings and loan crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Is it being a vulture to close a company that is unable to be saved? Or is that just reality man????
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In 1992, Bain Capital bought American Pad & Paper by financing 87 percent of the purchase price. In the next three years, Ampad borrowed to make acquisitions, repay existing debt and pay Bain Capital and its investors $60 million in dividends.
As a result, the company’s debt swelled from $11 million in 1993 to $444 million by 1995. The $14 million in annual interest expense on this debt dwarfed the company’s $4.7 million operating cash flow. The proceeds of an initial public offering in July 1996 were used to pay Bain Capital $48 million for part of its stake and to reduce the company’s debt to $270 million.
From 1993 to 1999, Bain Capital charged Ampad about $18 million in various fees. By 1999, the company’s debt was back up to $400 million. Unable to pay the interest costs and drained of cash paid to Bain Capital in fees and dividends, Ampad filed for bankruptcy the following year. Senior secured lenders got less than 50 cents on the dollar, unsecured lenders received two- tenths of a cent on the dollar, and several hundred jobs were lost. Bain Capital had reaped capital gains of $107 million on its $5.1 million investment.

Romney
 
Re: Ryan Plan: Take from the POOR and give to the RICH???

Bobcat said:
So if the people want govt to provide their food, housing, clothing, cars, and booze, then the govt should just raise taxes sufficiently to cover all of those things that people want? Then the question becomes, who would work and pay taxes if the govt was providing all that stuff free?

you libs never think things all the way through. neither did Marx, Mao, Hitler, or Castro. Socialism never works
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That doesn't even make sense. You suggesting that people want a free ride is just plain off. Taxes is used as a form to pay and maintain stuff like roads, police, communications, fire dept, stadiums, schools, investments. Our government has never or will never be about giving people free homes. Since US is based in capitalism, there will be winners and losers. Your idea of everyone can be "millionaire" doesn't work in a capitalism system. In fact we don't even have a true capitalism system, where everything is up for the market, like hitman, abortions selling, sex slaves, porn on public channels and etc. Go to any non western influence country like Nigeria or third world, those places don't even have basic police. Your suggesting US should be turned into wild wild west where anything goes.
 
Re: Ryan Plan: Take from the POOR and give to the RICH???

disneydude said:
Sorry but when you ideas of "education" is spouting off talking points and propoganda...it isn't worthy of the time. You've already exposed yourself of this by posting "pants on fire" lies that are simply myths that right-wingers hope will become perpetuated....sorry but just because you repeat them over and over....they don't become truths.
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Yes, in typical fashion, the liberal cannot be bothered with facts and statistics. Because as we all know, when Conservatives use actual figures and statistics, liberals automatically deem those "talking points".

I see a lot of idiots bashing Romney and his time at Bain. They are calling it "vulture capitalism". However, I do not see those same people chiding Obama for using a "capitalistic" approach to buying his home in Chicago. He wasn't uncomfortable playing the system with his buddy and pal Tony Rezco, who is now in prison.

Difference is, what Bain did, and does, is perfectly LEGAL, whereas, what Obama and Rezco did isn't. Liberals are all about their own little shady deals, as long as someone gets a cheap house out of all of it. Or if the unions get paid off. Liberals don't seem to mind that hundreds of billions of tax dollars got wasted on Solyndra, but they are up in arms that a private company, who uses their own capital, goes out of business. lol....I don't know how liberals make it through life.

Oh wait, yes I do. They rely on corporations, or other business owners to employ them. They are the literal products of trickle down economics, then they turn around and say it doesn't work. But they cant see past their own noses. They don't realize that their paychecks are the result of wealth trickling down from a company's profits. They can't understand the fact that the paid for health care they recieve is the result of trickle down profits of their employers. They are duped into the propaganda of "fairness" and all the other bull crap that prevents them from understand how economics in America has made it the richest nation in the world's history. They are simply leaches.....
 
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