12 Things You Should Know About Vice Presidential Candidate Paul Ryan[W:418]

Re: 12 Things You Should Know About Vice Presidential Candidate Paul Ryan

Redress said:

Too many errors here to count. If you want to argue against Paul Ryan, it is easy to do so without resorting to lies.

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You need to show what in the TP article is a "lie".

Re: 12 Things You Should Know About Vice Presidential Candidate Paul Ryan

Cole said:

Pretty sure the hard Lefties are gonna spout:

"<insert name> as VP choice is a godsend to dems everywhere"


Paul Ryan is a good choice. Level headed. Very well spoken. Likable guy. He isn't going to win the election or lose the election for Romney. But if Romney does end up winning the Presidency, Ryan would be a capable vice president.

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Oh no, the two safe choices, Pawlenty and Portman would have not been a godsend. Rubio I think would not have been a godsend(though I confess I am ignorant of why he fell off the radar) and could have been a problem for us. Ryan is some one who is easy to run against, being part of a congress that has an approval rating similar to the black death. Ryan is easy to run against as some one who wants to help the rich at the expense of every one else. Ryan is some one easy to run against as a far right social conservative.

Re: 12 Things You Should Know About Vice Presidential Candidate Paul Ryan

MaggieD said:

Thank God, finally!! An unbiased assessment!! *Sarcasm*

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You equate bias with inaccuracy? Why, and on what basis?

Alternatively, which of the OP's quoted points were false (= biased, I suppose)?

Re: 12 Things You Should Know About Vice Presidential Candidate Paul Ryan

Redress said:

Oh no, the two safe choices, Pawlenty and Portman would have not been a godsend. Rubio I think would not have been a godsend(though I confess I am ignorant of why he fell off the radar) and could have been a problem for us. Ryan is some one who is easy to run against, being part of a congress that has an approval rating similar to the black death. Ryan is easy to run against as some one who wants to help the rich at the expense of every one else. Ryan is some one easy to run against as a far right social conservative.

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I wouldn't be surprised if Rubio was asked and he declined.

Re: 12 Things You Should Know About Vice Presidential Candidate Paul Ryan

pbrauer said:

1. Ryan embraces the extreme philosophy of Ayn Rand.


Details HERE

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He sure doesn't vote like he 'embraces the extreme philosophy of Ayn Rand':

'Paul Ryan on Bailouts and Government Stimuli

-Voted YES on TARP (2008)
-Voted YES on Economic Stimulus HR 5140 (2008)
-Voted YES on $15B bailout for GM and Chrysler. (Dec 2008)
-Voted YES on $192B additional anti-recession stimulus spending. (Jul 2009)

Paul Ryan on Entitlement Programs

-Voted YES on limited prescription drug benefit for Medicare recipients. (Nov 2003)
-Voted YES on providing $70 million for Section 8 Housing vouchers. (Jun 2006)
-Voted YES on extending unemployment benefits from 39 weeks to 59 weeks. (Oct 2008)
-Voted YES on Head Start Act (2007)

Paul Ryan on Education
Rep. Ryan went along with the Bush Administration in supporting more federal involvement in education. This is contrary to the traditional Republican position, which included support for abolition of the Department of Education and decreasing federal involvement in education.

-Voted YES on No Child Left Behind Act (2001)

Paul Ryan on Civil Liberties

-Voted YES on federalizing rules for driver licenses to hinder terrorists. (Feb 2005)
-Voted YES on making the PATRIOT Act permanent. (Dec 2005)
-Voted YES on allowing electronic surveillance without a warrant. (Sep 2006)

Paul Ryan on War and Intervention Abroad

-Voted YES on authorizing military force in Iraq. (Oct 2002)
-Voted YES on emergency $78B for war in Iraq & Afghanistan. (Apr 2003)
-Voted YES on declaring Iraq part of War on Terror with no exit date. (Jun 2006)
-Voted NO on redeploying US troops out of Iraq starting in 90 days. (May 2007)

Congressman Ryan supports the United Nations, the World Trade Organization, federal bailouts, increased federal involvement in education, unconstitutional and undeclared wars, Medicare Part D (a multi-trillion dollar unfunded liability), stimulus spending, and foreign aid.'

OP/ED: Paul Ryan is No Ron Paul - Bedford, NH Patch

Re: 12 Things You Should Know About Vice Presidential Candidate Paul Ryan

Gimmesometruth said:

You need to show what in the TP article is a "lie".

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Fiddy already did it for the first one. The second is not true in that there is no evidence he wants to raise taxes, he is just relying on bad math. Third was is not true in that his most current plan offers future seniors the option of traditional Medicare or vouchers. And I stopped there even looking. There are accurate ways to argue against his tax plan(and I have done so) and his medicare plan(and I have done so). The OP's method however is not an accurate way.

Re: 12 Things You Should Know About Vice Presidential Candidate Paul Ryan

clownboy said:

In fact their Lie of the Year last year was right on point here:

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Politifact got the one totally wrong:

Politifact's first point is completely irrelevant to the issue at hand. It's true that when Democrats said that Paul Ryan's plan is a plan to end Medicare they didn't emphasize the fact that it's a plan to begin ending Medicare ten years in the future. But plans to end Medicare starting ten years from now are a subset of plans to end Medicare. The third point is baffling. Ryan's plan would not impact people who are elderly today, but it would impact people below the age of 55 when they are elderly in the future. What kind of actors should be used to illustrate this point? Using a fifty year-old actor would be bizarre, as no fifty year-olds will suffer. The people who will suffer will be elderly at the time they suffer. A portrayal of elderly sufferers is more accurate than Politifact's alternative.
The entire argument hinges on point two. House Republicans voted to replace Medicare's existing single payer fee for service program with a different program, also called "Medicare," under which (in the words of Politifact) retirees "would receive 'premium support payments' from the government to help pay for the private insurance." Whether or not this change should be described with "harsh" terms is clearly a matter of ethical judgment. But it's obviously a big change. Mitt Romney, for example, lauded the plan as reflecting "the need to fundamentally transform Medicare." If friends of the plan describe it as fundamentally transforming the program, can it really be wildly illegitimate for its foes to describe it as ending Medicare? That doesn't make sense to me. According to Mitt Romney, we're fundamentally transforming Medicare. According to the DCCC we're ending Medicare and replacing it with a fundamentally different program. This is a hair-splitting disagreement, not a gaping void of factual error and deliberate deception. The philosophy major in me will happily grant that Saul Kripke would agree with them, but I think their take on this (like Saul Kripke's philosophy of language) flies in the face of common sense. Sensible people, following Wittgenstein, will hold that "Medicare" is a cluster concept and that whether or not a given transformation of the program is so fundamental as to constitute "ending" it is precisely what needs to be contested in the public arena.

Politifact Lies About Lying

Re: 12 Things You Should Know About Vice Presidential Candidate Paul Ryan

clownboy said:

In fact their Lie of the Year last year was right on point here:

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You would have a point of the OP had said: "Ryan wants to end Medicare [...]"

But since he said: "Ryan wants to end Medicare, replace it with a voucher system."

You may need to check your pants for spontaneous combustion

Re: 12 Things You Should Know About Vice Presidential Candidate Paul Ryan

Gimmesometruth said:

Politifact got the one totally wrong: [...]

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Well, not to derail, but Politifact got hung up on semantics; if the DCCC had said "end Medicare as we know it" then all would have been copacetic. As it was, however, simply "ending Medicare" allowed the wordsmiths to accuse the DCCC of misrepresentation, which in precise technical terms, was kinda sorta correct. However, even if technically a lie of omission, it is hardly the whopper told usually by right wing 'news' media and, recently, the Romney campaign on a daily basis ("you didn't build that").

I guess it got top billing at Politifact because of the legendary nature of Medicare, rather than the legendary nature of the severity of the lie itself.

Re: 12 Things You Should Know About Vice Presidential Candidate Paul Ryan

Redress said:

Fiddy already did it for the first one.

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How in the world does it show he does NOT embrace her philosophy when his own article describes it as "a love/hate relationship"? If he makes sure all staff read Shrugged, that is not an example of "embracing"?

The second is not true in that there is no evidence he wants to raise taxes, he is just relying on bad math.

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He does not want to extend Obama's current tax cuts for low income earners....hence a tax increase.

Third was is not true in that his most current plan offers future seniors the option of traditional Medicare or vouchers.

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He has modified his "plan", the point still is that this would change Medicare into a voucher program (that won't cover future increases in costs), it effectively ends Medicare and creates a "new Medicare", Medicare-ish.

And I stopped there even looking. There are accurate ways to argue against his tax plan(and I have done so) and his medicare plan(and I have done so). The OP's method however is not an accurate way.

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This is not his list, go to the TP article.

Re: 12 Things You Should Know About Vice Presidential Candidate Paul Ryan

Redress said:

Oh no, the two safe choices, Pawlenty and Portman would have not been a godsend. Rubio I think would not have been a godsend(though I confess I am ignorant of why he fell off the radar) and could have been a problem for us. Ryan is some one who is easy to run against, being part of a congress that has an approval rating similar to the black death. Ryan is easy to run against as some one who wants to help the rich at the expense of every one else. Ryan is some one easy to run against as a far right social conservative.

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Don't agree but can 't say you are wrong. Dunno. At some point the focus of the debate has to shift to the economy. Think Ryan does a nice job breaking down the details and addressing solutions. (Not to say there won't be continued Dem ads of wheelchairs going over cliffs). But overall think that Romney will need to stand on his own merits and that is who the voters are going to be looking at. (Sarah Palin was an extreme selection in 2008, Paul Ryan is not.)


Personally would have preferred Pawlenty just because i like the idea of Governor experience for all presidents.

Re: 12 Things You Should Know About Vice Presidential Candidate Paul Ryan

Fiddytree said:

Recounting those two words endlessly and for almost no reason does not help your case.

And, Pete, the first one gets more complicated...

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The rest of the article that you linked does not help yours; unless your argument is that one flip flopper has selected another in kind for veep:

In 2003, the Wisconsin Republican told The Weekly Standard’s writer Katherine Mangu-Ward, now at the libertarian Reason magazine, that he gave out Rand’s books as gifts and tried to make interns read it. “I give out ‘Atlas Shrugged’ [by Ayn Rand] as Christmas presents, and I make all my interns read it. Well… I try to make my interns read it,” he said. However, even then, Ryan pointed out that while he “looked into” Rand’s philosophy, Objectivism, he is a Christian and reads the bible often.

In 2005, he said before the Objectivist organization the Atlas Society that, “[T]he reason I got involved in public service, by and large, if I had to credit one thinker, one person, it would be Ayn Rand. And the fight we are in here, make no mistake about it, is a fight of individualism versus collectivism.”

In 2009, in a multi-part video series posted to Facebook, Paul Ryan said that “what’s unique about what’s happening today in government, in the world, in America, is that it’s as if we’re living in an Ayn Rand novel right now. I think Ayn Rand did the best job of anybody to build a moral case of capitalism, and that morality of capitalism is under assault.” “Ayn Rand, more than anyone else, did a fantastic job of explaining the morality of capitalism, the morality of individualism, and this to me is what matters most,” he said in the second part of the series.

Read more: Vice president nominee Paul Ryan?s love-hate with Ayn Rand - Tim Mak - POLITICO.com

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Of course as a Catholic Ryan is going to reject Rand's atheism, but that alone does not make him reject objectivism. Again, as with another detractor, this was all explained at the OP's link which the naysayers seem unable to refute (otherwise they would not be refuting what has already been explained).

Re: 12 Things You Should Know About Vice Presidential Candidate Paul Ryan

Darroll said:

They forgot that the republicans love dirty water and air?

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and dirty money

Re: 12 Things You Should Know About Vice Presidential Candidate Paul Ryan

Redress said:

Too many errors here to count. If you want to argue against Paul Ryan, it is easy to do so without resorting to lies.

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point them out

Re: 12 Things You Should Know About Vice Presidential Candidate Paul Ryan

azgreg said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Rubio was asked and he declined.

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rubio has a future
no need to mess it up in this failed attempt

Re: 12 Things You Should Know About Vice Presidential Candidate Paul Ryan

"I would like you to join me in welcoming the next president of the United States, Paul Ryan!".....

Romney: Ryan is the next president of the united states

Huh?? Whaaaa....wha...wha....what did Romney say???? :shock:




I'll bet no one knew that about Paul Ryan. ROTFL

Re: 12 Things You Should Know About Vice Presidential Candidate Paul Ryan

ksu_aviator said:

pbrauer said:

2. Ryan wants to raises taxes on the middle class, cuts them for millionaires.

Details HERE

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That's not even remotely true.

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The following graphic reads as follows (the far right column gives the net change):

If you make between $50K-$100K, married filing jointly, your annual taxes go UP about $1,360

If you make over $1 million, married filing jointly, your annual taxes go DOWN about $286,540



Of course this was explained at the link that the OP provided, which you clearly did not review and/or you're just throwing feces on the wall and hoping it sticks ("that's not even remotely not true", boo hoo neener neener)

Re: 12 Things You Should Know About Vice Presidential Candidate Paul Ryan

Karl said:

The rest of the article that you linked does not help yours; unless your argument is that one flip flopper has selected another in kind for veep:


Of course as a Catholic Ryan is going to reject Rand's atheism, but that alone does not make him reject objectivism.

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My argument was that it is more complicated than "embracing Ayn Rand's philosophy." As you read the piece, you found that to be true, no?

Re: 12 Things You Should Know About Vice Presidential Candidate Paul Ryan

Moot said:

"I would like you to join me in welcoming the next president of the United States, Paul Ryan!".....

Romney: Ryan is the next president of the united states

Huh?? Whaaaa....wha...wha....what did Romney say???? :shock:




I'll bet no one knew that about Paul Ryan. ROTFL

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thanks for that post
i was on the computer, half listening to that event
thought i heard the gaffe machine say "president" instead of "vice president" but just assumed i had to have been wrong
freudian slip?

Re: 12 Things You Should Know About Vice Presidential Candidate Paul Ryan

Fiddytree said:

My argument was that it is more complicated than "embracing Ayn Rand's philosophy." As you read the piece, you found that to be true, no?

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No. As I read the piece, I found a selective argument -- yours -- based on semantics, and as such, a failed argument. Clearly the objectivist tenets of self-idolization and disdain for others forms his core beliefs (as they do for many on his side of the political spectrum).

Re: 12 Things You Should Know About Vice Presidential Candidate Paul Ryan

Fiddytree said:

My argument was that it is more complicated than "embracing Ayn Rand's philosophy." As you read the piece, you found that to be true, no?

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You (and Redress) are getting into an absolutist argument on this point, "embracing" is NOT a whole hearted, total acceptance of an ideology.

Re: 12 Things You Should Know About Vice Presidential Candidate Paul Ryan

Karl said:

No. As I read the piece, I found a selective argument -- yours -- based on semantics, and as such, a failed argument. Clearly the objectivist tenets of self-idolization and disdain for others forms his core beliefs (as they do for many on his side of the political spectrum).

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You (and Redress) are getting into an absolutist argument on this point, "embracing" is NOT a whole hearted, total acceptance of an ideology.

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Oh, stop. I included the last line on my quote on purpose, to give credence to the idea that Ryan accepts portions of Rand's philosophy and abhors many others, hence why I said it was "more complicated."

Re: 12 Things You Should Know About Vice Presidential Candidate Paul Ryan

Karl said:

No. As I read the piece, I found a selective argument -- yours -- based on semantics, and as such, a failed argument. Clearly the objectivist tenets of self-idolization and disdain for others forms his core beliefs (as they do for many on his side of the political spectrum).

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you know ryan has his staff read Atlas Shrugged only because of the plot
couldn't be because he embraces the ideology [/s]

Re: 12 Things You Should Know About Vice Presidential Candidate Paul Ryan

haymarket said:

13 - Ryan as VP choice is a godsend for democrats everywhere.

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You know I saw that on the news that Paul Ryan was chosen for VP by Romney.
So I said who the Hell is Paul Ryan?
However being a person with an open mind and an Independent voter I decided to inquire with some of the people in my state of Michigan ,after all give the guy a chance.
However the response I keep getting is "WHO THE HELL IS PAUL RYAN"?LOLeace

Re: 12 Things You Should Know About Vice Presidential Candidate Paul Ryan

justabubba said:

thanks for that post
i was on the computer, half listening to that event
thought i heard the gaffe machine say "president" instead of "vice president" but just assumed i had to have been wrong
freudian slip?

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That is freaking priceless.