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Romney's tax plan- raise taxes on the middle class, cut them for the rich[W:13]

Re: Romney's tax plan- raise taxes on the middle class, cut them for the rich

Redress said:
The weak minded think that the only part of Obama's plan to bring down the deficit is tax hikes. See how that works?
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can you cite a study that even suggests Obama's scheme would bring down the deficit?
 
Re: Romney's tax plan- raise taxes on the middle class, cut them for the rich

teamosil said:
The only way to solve the deficit is to attack it on all three fronts- domestic spending, military spending and revenues. Revenues amount to getting the money from the rich. Cutting domestic spending amounts to getting the money from the middle class. Cutting military spending is just cutting military spending. Hands down, the least damaging options are taxing the rich and cutting the military. Democrats understand that. But, the Democrats absolutely have been willing to attack it on all three fronts as a compromise. They put forward tons and tons of different proposals to do that. But the Republicans blocked each one because they are unwilling to cut military spending or to raise taxes. They will only accept taking 100% of the deficit out of the middle class, and that just is not morally acceptable.
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Until the government proves it will make and enact massive cuts-no one should pay anymore taxes-especially not us who pay far too much in taxes as it is
 
Re: Romney's tax plan- raise taxes on the middle class, cut them for the rich

TurtleDude said:
can you cite a study that even suggests Obama's scheme would bring down the deficit?
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As you know, the CBO concluded that Obama's proposal would lower the deficit by $4 trillion over 10 years.
 
Re: Romney's tax plan- raise taxes on the middle class, cut them for the rich

teamosil said:
As you know, the CBO concluded that Obama's proposal would lower the deficit by $4 trillion over 10 years.
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based on massive amounts of speculation and assumptions.
 
Re: Romney's tax plan- raise taxes on the middle class, cut them for the rich

TurtleDude said:
Until the government proves it will make and enact massive cuts-no one should pay anymore taxes-especially not us who pay far too much in taxes as it is
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Again, it needs to be on all three fronts. Nobody is going to agree to "well, lets just take a couple trillion from the middle class for now, but we promise we'll make the rich chip in later..." What, do you think we're idiots?
 
Re: Romney's tax plan- raise taxes on the middle class, cut them for the rich

teamosil said:
Again, it needs to be on all three fronts. Nobody is going to agree to "well, lets just take a couple trillion from the middle class for now, but we promise we'll make the rich chip in later..." What, do you think we're idiots?
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Objection your honor "what do you think we are idiots?" is clearly leading the witness.

47% dont pay any taxes. Progressive or not, thats dangerous. People that dont pay taxes tend to be a lot less careful about how those taxes are spent and about who they are levied upon. Its hard for people to care about something they have no stake in unless you mean what they get out of it instead of what they put into it.
 
Re: Romney's tax plan- raise taxes on the middle class, cut them for the rich

teamosil said:
Again, it needs to be on all three fronts. Nobody is going to agree to "well, lets just take a couple trillion from the middle class for now, but we promise we'll make the rich chip in later..." What, do you think we're idiots?
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why should only the rich pay more?

and why should we not wait until the government proves it will make massive cuts

its not like the rich are not paying enough

its the middle class that is under taxed based on share of income vs share of taxes
 
Re: Romney's tax plan- raise taxes on the middle class, cut them for the rich

OpportunityCost said:
47% dont pay any taxes. Progressive or not, thats dangerous.
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That is a flat out lie and given that we've debunked that particular lie like 1,000 times on this forum I find it pretty hard to believe that you still honestly thought that was true.

What you are referring to is that 47% of people don't pay any FEDERAL INCOME taxes EXCLUDING FICA. Which are in fact less than half of taxes. When you include all taxes, the middle class pays between 20% and 30%, those below the poverty line and the super rich pay around 15%.
 
Re: Romney's tax plan- raise taxes on the middle class, cut them for the rich

teamosil said:
That is a flat out lie and given that we've debunked that particular lie like 1,000 times on this forum I find it pretty hard to believe that you still honestly thought that was true.

What you are referring to is that 47% of people don't pay any FEDERAL INCOME taxes EXCLUDING FICA. Which are in fact less than half of taxes. When you include all taxes, the middle class pays between 20% and 30%, those below the poverty line and the super rich pay around 15%.
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AGI numbers for 2010.jpg

So if they then spend money and have to pay the same flat rate as everyone else on goods, I dont see how their tax burden goes down. Maybe you can post some proof of your claim.
 
Re: Romney's tax plan- raise taxes on the middle class, cut them for the rich

OpportunityCost said:
So if they then spend money and have to pay the same flat rate as everyone else on goods, I dont see how their tax burden goes down. Maybe you can post some proof of your claim.
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That's only federal taxes. Federal taxes are mildly progressive. State taxes are mildly regressive, so the total is less progressive than what you're showing there.

http://www.ctj.org/pdf/taxday2011.pdf

It is the super rich who pays around 15%, not the top 1%. The top 1% still includes many people who work.

Tax Rate for Richest 400 Taxpayers Plummeted in Recent Decades, Even as Their Pre-Tax Incomes Skyrocketed — Center on Budget and Policy Priorities

2-22-10tax-f1.jpg
 
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Re: Romney's tax plan- raise taxes on the middle class, cut them for the rich

teamosil said:
That is a flat out lie and given that we've debunked that particular lie like 1,000 times on this forum I find it pretty hard to believe that you still honestly thought that was true.

What you are referring to is that 47% of people don't pay any FEDERAL INCOME taxes EXCLUDING FICA. Which are in fact less than half of taxes. When you include all taxes, the middle class pays between 20% and 30%, those below the poverty line and the super rich pay around 15%.
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the discussion is on INCOME taxes. 47% pay zero income taxes. Everyone who works pays FICA and everyone who buys stuff pays sales taxes. Do you think the rich should pay those taxes for half of the country as well as their income taxes?
 
Re: Romney's tax plan- raise taxes on the middle class, cut them for the rich

Bobcat said:
the discussion is on INCOME taxes. 47% pay zero income taxes. Everyone who works pays FICA and everyone who buys stuff pays sales taxes. Do you think the rich should pay those taxes for half of the country as well as their income taxes?
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He was responding to OC's specific contention that "47% don't pay any taxes," which is obviously incorrect.
 
Re: Romney's tax plan- raise taxes on the middle class, cut them for the rich

AdamT said:
He was responding to OC's specific contention that "47% don't pay any taxes," which is obviously incorrect.
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we all knew what was intended. why should low income people not pay FICA and sales taxes? What exactly is your point?
 
Re: Romney's tax plan- raise taxes on the middle class, cut them for the rich

Bobcat said:
we all knew what was intended. why should low income people not pay FICA and sales taxes? What exactly is your point?
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Sorry, but we can't read minds around here. Thank God. :lol:

The point is that, contrary to OC's contention, the poor and middle class pay a lot of taxes.
 
Re: Romney's tax plan- raise taxes on the middle class, cut them for the rich

Bobcat said:
we all knew what was intended. why should low income people not pay FICA and sales taxes? What exactly is your point?
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That we need to look at all taxes, not just cherry pick those that lead to conclusions that are consistent with our political beliefs.
 
Re: Romney's tax plan- raise taxes on the middle class, cut them for the rich

AdamT said:
Sorry, but we can't read minds around here. Thank God. :lol:

The point is that, contrary to OC's contention, the poor and middle class pay a lot of taxes.
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Contrary to your posted contrariness, I did indeed mean income taxes.

http://www.ctj.org/pdf/taxday2011.pdf

Average Income.....Total Income Share.......Total Taxes......Federal income tax %......State and Local taxes %...........Total Taxes %
Lowest 20% $ 12,500.............3.5%......................2.0%.................3.9%.......................12.3%.............................16.2%
Second 20% 25,300...............7.1%.....................5.2%..................9.1%......................11.6%.............................20.7%
Middle 20% 40,700..............11.6%...................10.3%................13.9%.....................11.2%...........................25.1%
Fourth 20% 66,300.............19.0%...................19.0%................17.3%.....................11.1%...........................28.5%
Next 10% 100,000.............14.3%..................15.1%................19.0%.....................11.0%...........................30.0%
Next 5% 140,000.............10.2%..................11.2%................20.5%....................10.6%...........................31.1%
Next 4% 241,000............14.2%..................15.6%................21.4%.....................9.9%............................31.3%
Top 1% 1,254,000..........20.3%..................21.5%................22.1%.....................7.9%............................30.0%

Now those numbers seem to look like they are not paying a lower percentage of their income once you get down to it. It looks as though the top quarter are paying abour 30% of their income to taxes and everyone else is paying less than that. Keep in mind, this isnt even my source. shrug
 
Re: Romney's tax plan- raise taxes on the middle class, cut them for the rich

OpportunityCost said:
Now those numbers seem to look like they are not paying a lower percentage of their income once you get down to it. It looks as though the top quarter are paying abour 30% of their income to taxes and everyone else is paying less than that. Keep in mind, this isnt even my source. shrug
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Yeah, the top 1% does pay slightly more than the middle class. It's the super rich who pay much less.
 
Re: Romney's tax plan- raise taxes on the middle class, cut them for the rich

teamosil said:
Yeah, the top 1% does pay slightly more than the middle class. It's the super rich who pay much less.
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Yes, lets tax Gates and Buffet into the poor house, that will fix everything. do you know how dumb you sound with your rich envy?
 
Re: Romney's tax plan- raise taxes on the middle class, cut them for the rich

teamosil said:
That we need to look at all taxes, not just cherry pick those that lead to conclusions that are consistent with our political beliefs.
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So, you think the lower incomes should not pay sales taxes and FICA? be speific, what are you asking for?
 
Re: Romney's tax plan- raise taxes on the middle class, cut them for the rich

Bobcat said:
Yes, lets tax Gates and Buffet into the poor house, that will fix everything. do you know how dumb you sound with your rich envy?
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Sure, raising their tax rate 5% will put Gates and Buffett in the poor house. :lamo
 
Re: Romney's tax plan- raise taxes on the middle class, cut them for the rich

teamosil said:
Yeah, the top 1% does pay slightly more than the middle class. It's the super rich who pay much less.
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there aren't very many super rich, we could take 100% of their money and it would be a drop in the bucket towards fixing the debt and deficit. this is just class warfare, economically its a red herring.
 
Re: Romney's tax plan- raise taxes on the middle class, cut them for the rich

AdamT said:
Sure, raising their tax rate 5% will put Gates and Buffett in the poor house. :lamo
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I did not say that. but would that 5% do the economy more good in their hands or the government's? those two guys invest in companies that hire people, the govt would spend the money on more beaurocracy.
 
Re: Romney's tax plan- raise taxes on the middle class, cut them for the rich

teamosil said:
Yeah, the top 1% does pay slightly more than the middle class. It's the super rich who pay much less.
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Thats false.

Go read the chart from YOUR OWN SOURCE. The total tax burden of the "ultra rich" is calculated per your own source as being at 30%---which is higher than that of the bottom 60%. I think you need to read your own sources because they dont always say what you think they do.
 
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