Romney: Muslims are culturally inferior to Jews [W:412]

Zyphlin said:

Shhh, don't be silly Redress. Don't you understand Code Language...AKA "Some liberals decide what Romney 'really' means, posts that as if it's literally the actual quote he stated hoping people don't read the source and see they're completely full of it, and thus it's 'fact'". I thought you'd have got the "liberal memo" Your's must wind up in the same PO box as my conservative ones

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Note that it is liberals who have been correcting him.

You know what...

We hear often in this country from some how the north is culturally better than the "bigoted, racist, xenophobic, homophobic south". They're more civilized, more enlightened, more progressive, more respectful of human rights.

Well you know what...

By that similar logic, you're damn right that in a generalized sense Muslim culture is inferior to Jews, in terms of the "culture" found in the countries where the religion is the predominant governing body and predominant cultural tie. Jews generally do not stone people for being homosexual. Jews do not force their women to be fully clothed from head to toe. Jewish culture does not make the following of another religion a significant legal issue. So by the same standard that many people seem to suggest the south is "culturally inferior" to the northeast, I would say such a statement regarding muslim culture to jewish culture on the basis of countries where that is the baseline cultural foundation. Doesn't mean that can't change, doesn't mean it's the case with every muslim and jew (anymore than every southern and north easterner), but in general as culturals I would generally agree going off that same line of logic.

Zyphlin said:

You know what...

We hear often in this country from some how the north is culturally better than the "bigoted, racist, xenophobic, homophobic south". They're more civilized, more enlightened, more progressive, more respectful of human rights.

Well you know what...

By that similar logic, you're damn right that in a generalized sense Muslim culture is inferior to Jews, in terms of the "culture" found in the countries where the religion is the predominant governing body and predominant cultural tie. Jews generally do not stone people for being homosexual. Jews do not force their women to be fully clothed from head to toe. Jewish culture does not make the following of another religion a significant legal issue. So by the same standard that many people seem to suggest the south is "culturally inferior" to the northeast, I would say such a statement regarding muslim culture to jewish culture on the basis of countries where that is the baseline cultural foundation. Doesn't mean that can't change, doesn't mean it's the case with every muslim and jew (anymore than every southern and north easterner), but in general as culturals I would generally agree going off that same line of logic.

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And this has what to do with diplomacy or the standard of living comparison?

Regardless of which culture is superior is it really wise for a potential president to alienate a group of people?

Redress said:

And this has what to do with diplomacy or the standard of living comparison?

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Nothing. I wasn't speaking about Romney's comment because frankly this thread isn't fully about Romney's comment. I was speaking to the ridiculous strawman built by the OP regarding the notion of Muslim culture being inferior to Jewish culture and suggesting that such a thought is horrendous in and of itself.

This talk about how he didn't explicitly say Muslims are inferior, just Palestinians is absurd. First, and most importantly, because- so what? Even if that were true, that isn't any better.

But secondly, because he CLEARLY is talking about religions not nationalities. For example he said, "I’m told in a Sunday school class I attended ... the part of some of the Jews that left Egypt to come to the promised land, that in the promised land was down the River Nile, that would provide the essential water they had enjoyed in Egypt. They came here recognizing that they must be relied upon, themselves and the arm of God to provide rain from the sky. And this therefore represented a sign of faith and a show of faith to come here. That this is a people that has long recognized the purpose in this place and in their lives that is greater than themselves and their own particular interests, but a purpose of accomplishment and caring and building and serving."

That is his explanation for why the people of Israel are "culturally" superior to the people of Palestine. Because he learned in Sunday school that the Jews rely on the "arm of God to provide rain from they sky" and they gave God "signs of faith". Not those inferior Palestinians though. They don't have faith in the right God. That is clearly what he is saying.

I get that the article in the OP didn't lay out that text, so I see where people are coming from that thought just from that article that it maybe wasn't about religion, but reading that, I think it is pretty clear, no?

Mitt Romney sucking up to the Israelis and the far-right Christians back home while making some serious pocket change in the process? Color me surprised.

The guy is as tone-deaf a politician as I've ever seen. He has no strong convictions of his own, so he's just going with any strategy he thinks will best suit his purposes. And, in this case, that means kissing a whole lot of tukhus. I'm not offended by anything he says anymore because there's only about a 25% chance he believes a word of it.

Given his position, he can't exactly point out the real reasons why most Palestinians live in poverty, can he?

teamosil said:

In an utterly shocking and despicable display of over the top ignorance and bigotry, Mitt Romney announced to the world that the reason Palestine is poorer than Israel is that the Palestinians are culturally inferior. He did not consider that perhaps the occupation, the checkpoints, the shelling or the land seizures might be a factor. Nope, just that Muslims are inferior to Jews. Honestly, I'm stunned. I have always thought that Romney was naive and immoral on the economic side, but I held out hope that he was above the whole bigotry thing, but these comments really leave no wiggle room. He has outed himself as a full on bigot. Romney comments at fundraiser outrage Palestinians - Boston.com

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Your whole existence is based on the destruction of Israel. Your day consists of running out firing rockets into Israel then running and hiding. Sounds culturally inferior to me.

Prof. Peabody said:

Your whole existence is based on the destruction of Israel. Your day consists of running out firing rockets into Israel then running and hiding. Sounds culturally inferior to me.

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What in the hell are you talking about? I just searched for posts I've made with the work "israel" in them. I find three other than this thread. Two where I was listing off countries that have a particular missile defense system, one of which is Israel. The third I am replying to somebody who said something about Israel, but I didn't mention it myself. Are you thinking of another poster, or are you just making things up at random?

Fletch said:

Saying one country has a culture superior to another is not bigotry or in any way declaring the people within that culture as superior or inferior by nature. Western culture of democracy, liberty and capitalism is superior to those cultures that lack those things. Is anyone going to argue that Afghan culture is is not inferior to virtually every other nation on Earth? How many women prefer Saudi culture to American culture? Please. People need to be less touchy and less eager to be insulted. Romney is right. Israeli culture is superior to Palestinian culture. That does not mean, however, that Israelis are superior to Palestinians.

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You're talking about subjective issues in terms of black and white.

You asked, "is anyone going to argue that Afghan culture is is not inferior to virtually every other nation on Earth?" Yeah, I would argue against that. Afghan culture is actually a mixture of many other cultures, and ethnic groups with separate histories and differing goals and desires regarding the political direction of the country. Afghanistan will likely never look like America, but neither will Dubai. Being financially successful has nothing to do with ethnicity and culture. There were extremely wealthy people in Saddam's Iraq and Soviet Russia and the USSR. There are extremely wealthy people in Ethiopia. What kind of culture does North Korea have... a superior or inferior culture?

And look around at the former Soviet states, they are growing and rebuilding. Property is expensive in England and London, so Westerns are investing more in the former Soviet states, building businesses, and they Eastern people are becoming more and more educated.

The problem in all those regions is not the culture itself, it's government oppression.

teamosil said:

In an utterly shocking and despicable display of over the top ignorance and bigotry, Mitt Romney announced to the world that the reason Palestine is poorer than Israel is that the Palestinians are culturally inferior. He did not consider that perhaps the occupation, the checkpoints, the shelling or the land seizures might be a factor. Nope, just that Muslims are inferior to Jews.

Honestly, I'm stunned. I have always thought that Romney was naive and immoral on the economic side, but I held out hope that he was above the whole bigotry thing, but these comments really leave no wiggle room. He has outed himself as a full on bigot.

Romney comments at fundraiser outrage Palestinians - Boston.com

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The politics of the conflict aside of course there is more than a bit of truth to this. I'm not going to bow and say that liberal and secular values are equal in their societal utility to religious conservative ones. I would like to think most Americans would be willing to acknowledge this reality regardless on who they plan on voting for.

Edit: Yes I see the bit of irony in there.

Liberty, democracy, etc. all great concepts in America. Nobody will argue otherwise, but one could be argued that American culture is creates more problems for Americans than the government... :mrgreen:

rocket88 said:

Stay tuned for tomorrow. There was his comments in Britain (not to mention the un-named advisor). Now there's this. Whatever he meant to say on either occasion, this trip has been a bad one for doozies.

I can't wait to see what he says in Poland....

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You women's moustaches are the silkiest!

Fletch said:

Rank these three cultures for me:

US
Afghanistan
Saudi Arabia

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So you respond to my post about there not being a way to objectively measure entire cultures against entire cultures by asking me to rank entire cultures against each other? Any reason you didn't feel like dealing with the content of my post?

So my answer is that there is no way to rank those cultures without more specific guidelines. I asked you for those earlier, but you never answered my request.

E-M said:

So you respond to my post about there not being a way to objectively measure entire cultures against entire cultures by asking me to rank entire cultures against each other? Any reason you didn't feel like dealing with the content of my post?

So my answer is that there is no way to rank those cultures without more specific guidelines. I asked you for those earlier, but you never answered my request.

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Use any guidelines you like.

Arbo said:

It's not bigotry, it's the truth. When any section of the population is institutionally treated as less than human or second class citizens, such as the case in Afganistan WRT women, they are inferior to other countries where that is not institutionalized... not to mention religious freedom.

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You are confusing religious and political oppression with cultural tradition. If the government removes my rights tomorrow, it doesn't automatically make me culturally inferior, nor would that have anything to do with my cultural traditions. That's ridiculous.

Women's rights lag behind in the ME, including in Israel.... some even say women's rights lag behind in America compared to Western Europe. One time in America, nobody except white men had rights. When those men first came, they said the natives were barbaric and inferior... their culture was trampled on and genocide followed. I don't think native Americans were barbaric or inferior, they didn't wear Western clothing and painted their faces.. but is that so bad?

They were very successful at surviving and hunting, and they had respectful moral codes within the tribes. I guess America was born as an inferior nation and culture, given the brutality and blood shed, slavery, genocide, killing women off as witches, etc. but eventually they learned how to be superior, right?

Fletch said:

Rank these three cultures for me:

US
Afghanistan
Saudi Arabia

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Culturally, I like Saudi Arabia... it has an ancient history, modern people showing respect for the ancient tribes their ancestors are from, tent sites, campfires, camels, folklore, the horses, the desert, etc. Its all very beautiful and I really like Arabian stories... but politically, USA tops the list. America's culture isn't very fascinating too me. I like the cultures of Greece and ancient Rome, Turkey, Persia, etc. for the ancient feeling of the ruins, the desert, etc.. I also like Northern European culture because that's my attitude and I am at home there.

Wow, I didn't know pointing out advantages of cultural attitudes was somehow bigoted. Is pointing out that stoning woman being an aspect of your culture is disadvantageous to woman productivity in your community or is that a bigoted statement? I guess I have to ask what EXACTLY was bigoted about it because I don't get it.

Republic Now! said:

Wow, I didn't know pointing out advantages of cultural attitudes was somehow bigoted.

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That is just totally insane. There is nothing that is more overtly bigotry than declaring that one culture is superior to another. Especially when the explanation is that the superior culture is closer to God like he said. If you don't think that is bigotry, what the hell is? Do you just not believe that bigotry is a thing at all?

Fletch said:

Use any guidelines you like.

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Willingness to perform agriculture labor. This is because no civilization can exist without cheap agricultural production. If a culture wants to survive it must either have members willing to perform difficult work for little pay, or it must admit its cultural weakness by important people of different cultural origins.

Under those criteria:
1. Afghanistan
2. Saudi Arabia
3. USA

Republic Now! said:

Wow, I didn't know pointing out advantages of cultural attitudes was somehow bigoted. Is pointing out that stoning woman being an aspect of your culture is disadvantageous to woman productivity in your community or is that a bigoted statement? I guess I have to ask what EXACTLY was bigoted about it because I don't get it.

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I am curious how many cultures would impress under Romney's measuring stick(GDP per capita) living under the conditions the Palestinians have.

teamosil said:

What in the hell are you talking about? I just searched for posts I've made with the work "israel" in them. I find three other than this thread. Two where I was listing off countries that have a particular missile defense system, one of which is Israel. The third I am replying to somebody who said something about Israel, but I didn't mention it myself. Are you thinking of another poster, or are you just making things up at random?

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I was generalizing did you need me to tell you that?

E-M said:

Willingness to perform agriculture labor. This is because no civilization can exist without cheap agricultural production. If a culture wants to survive it must either have members willing to perform difficult work for little pay, or it must admit its cultural weakness by important people of different cultural origins.

Under those criteria:
1. Afghanistan
2. Saudi Arabia
3. USA

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What do you mean exactly by cultural survival?

E-M said:

Willingness to perform agriculture labor. This is because no civilization can exist without cheap agricultural production. If a culture wants to survive it must either have members willing to perform difficult work for little pay, or it must admit its cultural weakness by important people of different cultural origins.

Under those criteria:
1. Afghanistan
2. Saudi Arabia
3. USA

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So based upon your criteria, the US culture is inferior to that of Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia. Does that make you a bigot? Or does it make you a person willing to make value judgements?

Redress said:

I am curious how many cultures would impress under Romney's measuring stick(GDP per capita) living under the conditions the Palestinians have.

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I don't think he ever argued that Palestinians culture was inferior as the OP implies. This is the only quote I see from Romney in it (please point out if I'm missing something):

"As you come here and you see the GDP per capita, for instance, in Israel which is about $21,000, and compare that with the GDP per capita just across the areas managed by the Palestinian Authority, which is more like $10,000 per capita, you notice such a dramatically stark difference in economic vitality," the Republican presidential candidate told about 40 wealthy donors who ate breakfast at the luxurious King David Hotel.

Romney said some economic histories have theorized that "culture makes all the difference."

"And as I come here and I look out over this city and consider the accomplishments of the people of this nation, I recognize the power of at least culture and a few other things," Romney said, citing an innovative business climate, the Jewish history of thriving in difficult circumstances and the "hand of providence." He said similar disparity exists between neighboring countries, like Mexico and the United States.

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I believe he was talking specifically about economic success.