CNN: Two Active Obama Supporters at Bain Confirm Romney Left in 1999

nonpareil · Jul 16, 2012

cpwill said:
the section seems to make clear the answer is "none".

But really? This is it? Your big scandal about Romney is that some SEC forms are signed in a manner as to appear suspicious to people who do not understand the relevant regulation?

The "big scandal" about Romney is that he can't get his story straight and now look like a bumbling idiot. The more he tries to explain it without actually saying anything, the more convoluted the story becomes. It's not a "big scandal", but a big political gain for his opponent. There are more to the story than SEC filings despite attempts by some of you to limit it to that. Americans can understand that SEC filings may not reflect reality in the company, what they may not like is that this Presidential candidate seems to contradict himself from left and right, and cannot explain himself in an open and sincere manner.

nonpareil · Jul 16, 2012

kamikaze483 said:
I've been going round and round with this in two threads. Links to the SEC regulations, the differences between SEC filing requirements and "real life," and even gave an example of a hospital buyout I worked on where the result was the same- the former owners listed on SEC documents as if they were the current owners and decision makers...

And all I get back is links to the Boston Globe story, citing the SEC documents. LOL.

You mean you provided opinions, speculations and rationalisation, and others provided cold hard facts and recorded statements from Romney himself.

cpwill · Jul 16, 2012

nonpareil said:
The "big scandal" about Romney is that he can't get his story straight and now look like a bumbling idiot.

His story has never changed. He left Bain to go save the Olympics. If the Obama Campaign's Grand Strategy is to force Romney to constantly repeat on television in a non-bragadocious setting how he left lucrative private practice go to turn around a failing major enterprise such as the Olympics... well, yeah, I'd say they have scraped through the bottom of the barrel. Maybe they should go back to the War on Women or the Ryan Wants To Kill Your Grandmother campaigns.

cpwill · Jul 16, 2012

teamosil said:
The point is that he has been reduce from his original pitch- "we need to give rich people even lower taxes so they can go about creating jobs like I did at Bain"

fail. Romney has called for a 20% tax cut for all brackets.

to trying to deny his involvement with Bain the job destroying machine

not at all. he has simply consistently said that he left in 1999 to go run the Olympics, and that prior to that he ran Bain where he was apparently extremely successful.

and refusing to admit that he, and the other people like him whose taxes he wants to reduce, actually don't pay hardly anything in taxes

actually people like him pay more in taxes than the vast majority of Americans.

haymarket · Jul 16, 2012

I doubt if even ten percent of the truth about Romney has come out. If it did, the middle would desert him like people fleeing a sinking ship.

Consider that we have seen a single year of his tax returns. John McCain and his team saw over twenty years of Romney returns and rejected him as a VP choice. What did they see in there that the nation needs to see?

cpwill · Jul 16, 2012

yeah, i saw you say that in the other thread - did Schultz say that on his radio show today or something?

and as I pointed out to you in the other thread as well - we have actually seen two years of returns from Romney, which is two more than we saw out of Bush W, Clinton, Bush H.W., Reagan, or Carter before we elected them.

kamikaze483 · Jul 16, 2012

haymarket said:
I doubt if even ten percent of the truth about Romney has come out. If it did, the middle would desert him like people fleeing a sinking ship.

Consider that we have seen a single year of his tax returns. John McCain and his team saw over twenty years of Romney returns and rejected him as a VP choice. What did they see in there that the nation needs to see?

Just that he made a lot of money. That is extremely incriminating these days.

mtm1963 · Jul 16, 2012

so far obama's campaign has kept the focus on romney and not obama and that's working quite well but it hasn't translated into an advantage in the polls of more then 3-5% although he's has a better advantage in the EC. this little episode is an example of that idea.

romney has to put the focus on obama or he will loose the election. there's still plenty of time.

VanceMack · Jul 16, 2012

Zyphlin said:
A title does not prove operational control, managerial control, participation in the business, or anything of the such.

You would think that with the guy currently occupying the Oval Office democrats would have a very firm understanding of that fact. Dood 1 doesnt cant and wont accept responsibility for ANYTHING done by anyone in his admin. But I guess what the ideologues are suggesting is that Obama is balls on the table full on responsible for Fast and Furious, and for all the recent prisoner abuses in Afghanistan, and for every other failed policy and practice that has occurred since 20 January 2009.

IndepCentristMA · Jul 16, 2012

teamosil said:
No, that's false. The CEO has legal responsibility for the operation of the company. That's why they make the CEO sign the forms. He's the guy that is accountable. In fact, in court if you can show that the CEO was not controlling the company, then you've shown that he breached his fiduciary duty and can hold him personally liable for anything that goes wrong at the company. By signing those forms he is claiming to the government that he is the guy running the company.

So in your opinion, that whole relocation of his family to Salt Lake City and all the work he did in Utah to get the Olympics back on track was just a ruse for his ulterior plot to hide his financial dealings as CEO of a company that he secretly flew back overnight while no one was watching and ran, then flew back and went to bed to wake up the next morning and do it again?

Common sense people... this is the most bogus story to get air time since the Congress was consumed with what type of curly hair was on Anita Hill's soda can...

IndepCentristMA · Jul 16, 2012

mtm1963 said:
so far obama's campaign has kept the focus on romney and not obama and that's working quite well but it hasn't translated into an advantage in the polls of more then 3-5% although he's has a better advantage in the EC. this little episode is an example of that idea.

romney has to put the focus on obama or he will loose the election. there's still plenty of time.

Like say the naming of a VP candidate during one of the next two weeks...

At the same time, I don't think Romney minds people recycling stories about the positive things he's done...

This issue has drawn attention to Romney making huge profits at Bain, and leaving Bain to go save the olympics... He could speak about those accomplishments until he was blue in the face, and no one would listen, but now the Obama campaign is bringing those accomplishments up... well done Obama...

What was Obama doing in 1999... glad handing with Ayers, Rezko, etc. and sitting through anti-America sermons by Rev Wright...

What was Romney doing in 1999, running a major private equity firm that turned huge profits, and saving the winter olympic games...

I'd take that comparison any day of the week...

VanceMack · Jul 16, 2012

IndepCentristMA said:
So in your opinion, that whole relocation of his family to Salt Lake City and all the work he did in Utah to get the Olympics back on track was just a ruse for his ulterior plot to hide his financial dealings as CEO of a company that he secretly flew back overnight while no one was watching and ran, then flew back and went to bed to wake up the next morning and do it again?

Common sense people... this is the most bogus story to get air time since the Congress was consumed with what type of curly hair was on Anita Hill's soda can...

With 3.5 years of skyrocketing gas prices, unemployment so bad that the only way figures improve is by people falling off the employment rosters because they are out of benefits, their ONLY claim to fame is 'health care' legislation that most of the people that voted for it admit they have never read and NO ONE knows what it will eventually cost or if in fact it will even benefit anyone...lets face it...its not like Obama is spending a lot of time running on his 'record'.

Yes...he got Bin Laden, and kudos. But then...he HAS in fact carried on the Bush policies on fighting terror and prosecuting both Iraq AND Afghanistan after spending his whiole time in congress knocking said policies. No...he didnt shut down GITMO, no, he didnt offer constitutional privileges to terrorists and no, he didnt exactly wear down any gavels forcing 'civilian' trials...and YES he did in fact expand Patriot Act 'intrusions, expanded cell phone taps, expanded black ops prison use, etc...so THAT might get a little tricky.

Debt...well...we know that skyrocketed.

Unemployment. Yeah...kinda tough to claim it is 'getting better' when actual unemployment rates are well over 14%.

Heck...even his green energy initiatives have been a dismal failure. But then...he HAS spent his whole presidency pushing for those Kyoto type changes. No...wait...he hasn't done that either.

He could run on 'blame'...as in...."Look at me...Im the best 'blaming' president in history!"

Yeah...he might as well keep up the negative and dishonest attack ads. Cuz...really...its all he has.

Its ALMOST funny that this election will come down to which candidate can convince their constituents to bother to vote for them because they suck less than the other guy.

teamosil · Jul 16, 2012

cpwill said:
fail. Romney has called for a 20% tax cut for all brackets.

Um googling "Romney job creators" yields 1.5 million pages... You're saying that angle hasn't been a cornerstone of his pitch thus far?

cpwill said:
not at all. he has simply consistently said that he left in 1999 to go run the Olympics, and that prior to that he ran Bain where he was apparently extremely successful.

Even, if you exclude the various state and federal documents he signed indicating things to the contrary, or you buy his "retroactive retirement" angle in order to conclude that he is being consistent, that doesn't really change the fact that the message went from "rah rah, I used to run Bain" to "but, but, I only ran it for a while before it turned evil". His biggest strength got morphed into a questionable excuse.

cpwill said:
actually people like him pay more in taxes than the vast majority of Americans.

No, not at all. He paid under 14% federally and likely no more than 2% state taxes. The median American pays 27%.

teamosil · Jul 16, 2012

IndepCentristMA said:
So in your opinion, that whole relocation of his family to Salt Lake City and all the work he did in Utah to get the Olympics back on track was just a ruse for his ulterior plot to hide his financial dealings as CEO of a company that he secretly flew back overnight while no one was watching and ran, then flew back and went to bed to wake up the next morning and do it again?

Huh? No, nobody said anything remotely like that. I'm saying that he either was the CEO, even if he was an absentee landlord type CEO, at the time, or else he lied to the SEC and states.

nonpareil · Jul 18, 2012

cpwill said:
His story has never changed. He left Bain to go save the Olympics. If the Obama Campaign's Grand Strategy is to force Romney to constantly repeat on television in a non-bragadocious setting how he left lucrative private practice go to turn around a failing major enterprise such as the Olympics... well, yeah, I'd say they have scraped through the bottom of the barrel. Maybe they should go back to the War on Women or the Ryan Wants To Kill Your Grandmother campaigns.

His story has changed, the few versions so far: 1. he "retired" from Bain Capital in Feb 1999 to run the Olympic, 2. he took a "leave of absence" from Bain Capital in Feb 1999 meaning to come back to Bain Capital, then changes his mind latter, 3. now it is claimed he "retired retroactively", whatever that means. He claimed to not be involved with Bain but won't comment on whether he went to any meeting at Bain, his signature were on Bain's forms, and he was listed its CEOs.

If you think this line of attack is so useless, you ought to be happy, and stop telling the other side how desperate they are and even suggesting alternatives attack route. Just keep quiet about it and let it go on. It makes one wonder though why Romney feels "forced" by such a useless attack, that he would even break from his usual reluctance of talking to the press in order to counter it.

cpwill · Jul 18, 2012

teamosil said:
Um googling "Romney job creators" yields 1.5 million pages... You're saying that angle hasn't been a cornerstone of his pitch thus far?

I"m saying that pretending that romney is running on a "cut taxes for the rich" platform is dishonest, since Romney is running on a "cut all nominal rates" platform.

Even, if you exclude the various state and federal documents he signed indicating things to the contrary, or you buy his "retroactive retirement" angle in order to conclude that he is being consistent, that doesn't really change the fact that the message went from "rah rah, I used to run Bain" to "but, but, I only ran it for a while before it turned evil". His biggest strength got morphed into a questionable excuse.

:shrug:

CNN Poll: Independents Trust Romney More Than Obama to Fix the Economy 52-41%
Rasmussen Poll: Likely Voters Trust Romney More Than Obama On The Economy 50-42%
Fox News Poll: Voters Trust Romney More On Improving The Economy And Encouraging Job Creation, 46-39%
CNBC Poll: Americans Think Romney's Policies Would Be Better For The Economy Than Obama's, 39-33%

And so on and so forth. Seems Romneys' strength... is still his strength.

Look, Gingrich and Perry tried this tack, too. It didn't win for them, and it's not gonna win for the President. The only people who really latch on to this are the people who are already bought-in.

No, not at all. He paid under 14% federally and likely no more than 2% state taxes. The median American pays 27%.

Tax Foundation:

nonpareil · Jul 18, 2012

cpwill said:
I"m saying that pretending that romney is running on a "cut taxes for the rich" platform is dishonest, since Romney is running on a "cut all nominal rates" platform.

:shrug:

CNN Poll: Independents Trust Romney More Than Obama to Fix the Economy 52-41%
Rasmussen Poll: Likely Voters Trust Romney More Than Obama On The Economy 50-42%
Fox News Poll: Voters Trust Romney More On Improving The Economy And Encouraging Job Creation, 46-39%
CNBC Poll: Americans Think Romney's Policies Would Be Better For The Economy Than Obama's, 39-33%

And so on and so forth. Seems Romneys' strength... is still his strength.

Look, Gingrich and Perry tried this tack, too. It didn't win for them, and it's not gonna win for the President. The only people who really latch on to this are the people who are already bought-in.

Tax Foundation:

That graph doesn't show what its title claims, and your link doesn't go to the tax foundation, it goes to cnbc.com.

Samhain · Jul 18, 2012

nonpareil said:
That graph doesn't show what its title claims, and your link doesn't go to the tax foundation, it goes to cnbc.com.

Even at 14%, Romney Pays a Higher Rate than 97% of His Fellow Americans | Tax Foundation

cpwill · Jul 18, 2012

:lol: damn you, copy/paste!!! :shakes fist:

the cited link

...Our income tax system is progressive, meaning we pay higher tax rates as our income gets higher. As the table below shows, there are six tax brackets for different bands of income. The "marginal" rate refers to the tax rate that is applied on that band of income.

Say, for instance, our income is $120,000. This would put us in the 25 percent bracket. If the U.S. had a flat rate tax system (and no deduction), we would pay 25 percent of $120,000 in tax, or $30,000...

However, under our marginal tax system we pay 10 percent on the first $17,000, or $1,700. We then pay 15 percent on the next band of income up to $69,000, or $7,800. We then pay 25 percent on the marginal amount over $69,000, for another $12,750 in taxes. When we total the taxes paid on these three bands of income it comes to $22,250, for an average (or effective) tax rate of 18.5 percent.

Of course, in our simplified example we have not taken account of all the exemptions, credits, and deductions that are available to us. These deductions reduce our taxable income. So instead of paying taxes on $120,000, the deductions for our children, mortgage, and charitable contributions could easily reduce our taxable income well below $90,000. At this taxable income we would owe a total of $14,750, for an average rate of about 12 percent.

Millionaires go through the same process, meaning they pay 10 percent on the first band of income, 15 percent on the next band, and so forth. As the chart below shows, based on the most recent IRS data for 2009, the average tax rate (after deductions) paid by all Americans is 11 percent. It is also clear that millionaires pay an average of 25 percent, while virtually every taxpayer earning under $100,000 pays an average rate of no more than 8 percent of their income in taxes...

Which gets us back to Mitt Romney's effective tax rate of 14 percent, after deductions. As the chart shows, this rate is still higher than the average rate paid by taxpayers earning up to $200,000. There are about 136 million taxpayers who have adjusted gross incomes less than $200,000, or 97 percent of all taxpayers. So even with an average tax rate of 14 percent, Romney paid a higher average rate than 97 percent of his fellow Americans...

teamosil · Jul 18, 2012

cpwill said:
I"m saying that pretending that romney is running on a "cut taxes for the rich" platform is dishonest, since Romney is running on a "cut all nominal rates" platform.

The talk of "job creators" and running on cutting taxes for the rich are the same thing. They're twin trickle down slogans that mean the same thing.

cpwill said:
And so on and so forth. Seems Romneys' strength... is still his strength

All of those except the Rasmussen one pre-date the incident. But IMO it isn't like some night and day thing. It isn't like all the voters that previously thought Romney was better for the economy are going to wake up tomorrow and suddenly reverse their position on who will be better. But it stifles his message. He can't really focus on it anymore. It neutralizes his big pitch. He's going to need to talk about economic policy now if he wants to sustain a lead on the economic stuff, and so far, he hasn't seemed to be able to come up with a convincing economic platform. If he can, maybe he can survive this. But if he continues to fumble and dodge the economic policy questions, he's boned without being able to point at Bain.

cpwill said:
Tax Foundation:

That's just federal taxes. Federal taxes tend to be more progressive, state taxes more regressive. The median American pays 27% overall. ALL economic brackets pay more than 16%, even those below the poverty line: http://www.ctj.org/pdf/taxday2011.pdf

nonpareil · Jul 19, 2012

Samhain said:
Even at 14%, Romney Pays a Higher Rate than 97% of His Fellow Americans | Tax Foundation

According to them:

Which gets us back to Mitt Romney's effective tax rate of 14 percent, after deductions. As the chart shows, this rate is still higher than the average rate paid by taxpayers earning up to $200,000. There are about 136 million taxpayers who have adjusted gross incomes less than $200,000, or 97 percent of all taxpayers. So even with an average tax rate of 14 percent, Romney paid a higher average rate than 97 percent of his fellow Americans.

They don't seem to understand the meaning of averages/means. If I pay 20% and another pays 10%, then the average is 15%. Are there two people paying 15%? No there isn't. That claim is a deduction from a deduction. That the average rate for all those with gross income of $200 000 or lower is less than 14% does not mean that all of those earning gross income of $200 000 or lower pays less than 14% effective tax rate.

miller · Jul 19, 2012

No matter what every man say, it is still on the minds of those who'll hear. It is on the people to whom they will believe.

James Cessna · Jul 21, 2012

VanceMack said:
With 3.5 years of skyrocketing gas prices, unemployment so bad that the only way figures improve is by people falling off the employment rosters because they are out of benefits, their ONLY claim to fame is 'health care' legislation that most of the people that voted for it admit they have never read and NO ONE knows what it will eventually cost or if in fact it will even benefit anyone...lets face it...its not like Obama is spending a lot of time running on his 'record'.

Yes...he got Bin Laden, and kudos. But then...he HAS in fact carried on the Bush policies on fighting terror and prosecuting both Iraq AND Afghanistan after spending his whiole time in congress knocking said policies. No...he didnt shut down GITMO, no, he didnt offer constitutional privileges to terrorists and no, he didnt exactly wear down any gavels forcing 'civilian' trials...and YES he did in fact expand Patriot Act 'intrusions, expanded cell phone taps, expanded black ops prison use, etc...so THAT might get a little tricky.

Debt...well...we know that skyrocketed.

Unemployment. Yeah...kinda tough to claim it is 'getting better' when actual unemployment rates are well over 14%.

Heck...even his green energy initiatives have been a dismal failure. But then...he HAS spent his whole presidency pushing for those Kyoto type changes. No...wait...he hasn't done that either.

He could run on 'blame'...as in...."Look at me...Im the best 'blaming' president in history!"

Yeah...he might as well keep up the negative and dishonest attack ads. Cuz...really...its all he has.

Its ALMOST funny that this election will come down to which candidate can convince their constituents to bother to vote for them because they suck less than the other guy.

Barack Obama knows if he tells the same lie enough times, some people will come to believe it!

James Cessna · Jul 21, 2012

Samhain said:
Even at 14%, Romney Pays a Higher Rate than 97% of His Fellow Americans | Tax Foundation

These comments were very good.

There are roughly 123 million taxpayers who earn under $100,000, or about 88 percent of the 140 million Americans who filed a tax return in 2009. In other words, 88 percent of all taxpayers pay 8 percent or less of their income in income taxes.

Which gets us back to Mitt Romney's effective tax rate of 14 percent, after deductions. As the chart shows, this rate is still higher than the average rate paid by taxpayers earning up to $200,000. There are about 136 million taxpayers who have adjusted gross incomes less than $200,000, or 97 percent of all taxpayers. So even with an average tax rate of 14 percent, Romney paid a higher average rate than 97 percent of his fellow Americans.

Even at 14%, Romney Pays a Higher Rate than 97% of His Fellow Americans | Tax Foundation

James Cessna · Jul 21, 2012

teamosil said:
No, not at all. He paid under 14% federally and likely no more than 2% state taxes. The median American pays 27%.

You are mistaken, teamosil.

Do you just make this sttff up, or what?

There are roughly 123 million taxpayers who earn under $100,000, or about 88 percent of the 140 million Americans who filed a tax return in 2009. In other words, 88 percent of all taxpayers pay 8 percent or less of their income in income taxes.

Which gets us back to Mitt Romney's effective tax rate of 14 percent, after deductions. As the chart shows, this rate is still higher than the average rate paid by taxpayers earning up to $200,000. There are about 136 million taxpayers who have adjusted gross incomes less than $200,000, or 97 percent of all taxpayers. So even with an average tax rate of 14 percent, Romney paid a higher average rate than 97 percent of his fellow Americans.

Even at 14%, Romney Pays a Higher Rate than 97% of His Fellow Americans | Tax Foundation

CNN: Two Active Obama Supporters at Bain Confirm Romney Left in 1999

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