• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Worst VPs on the short list

In reality it makes no difference. Those of us who are Right-Wing enough not to vote for Romney are not going to be swayed by some semi-Conservative VP nominee. That's like buying a totalled car because you like the radio.

So instead far right wingers like yourself would rather sit out and not vote and hand the election over to Obama instead of looking at a Romney win aa an advance move to the middle.
 
Let's be serious. She was mayor of a town of about 6000 and served less than two years as governor of a state with the population of a medium-sized city.

Yet, she still had more experience than your side's Presidential candidate.

In any event, Zyph, I dont know. I dont think running even further to the left is very beneficial to Romney at this point. But then again, I think it would be funny to watch liberal heads explode if he were to name Allen West :p

Christie is not very socially conservative. Hes a fiscal bulldog though. Ryan is fairly conservative across the board, but if you want to show you are serious about fiscal issues, Ryan is a good choice.

Im thinking its going to be a governor that is fairly middle of the road---Daniels or McDonnel, I dunno. They administered from a center right position and were not huge social advocates. Fiscally rock solid though.
 
If Romney wants to win - it should be Marco Rubio. He would deliver the important state of Florida and give the GOP years to begin building important bridges to the fastest growing ethnic group in America.
 
If Romney wants to win - it should be Marco Rubio. He would deliver the important state of Florida and give the GOP years to begin building important bridges to the fastest growing ethnic group in America.

that is cold, haymarket
rubio is one of the few bright lights with a GOP future
being part of the upcoming romney defeat would set him back

amazes me that so many on the right insist that a winger is needed, as if the right wing is going to vote for Obama instead of romney

what amazes me further is that all of our wingers who want some someone from the far right have ignored their beloved sarah palin as a prospect for 2012. if she is so great, why the snub
 
You're amazed that the Republicans think a Republican is needed? Really?

Name me the last election where the Presidential VP wasn't the same party as the candidate?

Hell, name me an instance where the individual in the VP spot was someone the other side honestly saw as a "moderate" at that time? Even Lieberman largley gained his "Moderate" credentials post 2000 largely due to the WOT issue.

Is your scale essentially either someone is a "moderate" republican or their a "Winger" and that's...about it? Nothing in between?
 
You're amazed that the Republicans think a Republican is needed? Really?

Name me the last election where the Presidential VP wasn't the same party as the candidate?

Hell, name me an instance where the individual in the VP spot was someone the other side honestly saw as a "moderate" at that time? Even Lieberman largley gained his "Moderate" credentials post 2000 largely due to the WOT issue.

Is your scale essentially either someone is a "moderate" republican or their a "Winger" and that's...about it? Nothing in between?

someone like a Gary Johnson, fiscal conservative and social liberal, would attract much of the youth vote and the independents - you know, the voters who decide presidential elections

unfortunately, when the GOP kept making rules to prevent him from being able to participate in the party debates, he defected to the libertarian party

and notice that i not once advocated the republicans nominate as their VP candidate someone who was from outside their party. you just made that strawman up to have something to argue against
 
You're amazed that the Republicans think a Republican is needed? Really?

Name me the last election where the Presidential VP wasn't the same party as the candidate?

Hell, name me an instance where the individual in the VP spot was someone the other side honestly saw as a "moderate" at that time? Even Lieberman largley gained his "Moderate" credentials post 2000 largely due to the WOT issue.

Is your scale essentially either someone is a "moderate" republican or their a "Winger" and that's...about it? Nothing in between?

To be fair, what is a moderate republican and a standard republican and a winger has shifted somewhat distinctly to the right. It is hard to blame some people for being behind in their identifications.
 
someone like a Gary Johnson, fiscal conservative and social liberal, would attract much of the youth vote and the independents - you know, the voters who decide presidential elections

Ummm...what. Please, go up to any political scientist and suggest ot them the "youth vote" decides presidential elections. The Youth Vote is largely an irrelevant and rather stereotypical vote in almost every year but 2008.

Now, independents do tend to help swing elections. Unfortunately, Independents are not exactly a monolithic group in their thinking. There are independents who lean both left and right and few that are largely in the middle, typically because they have no real strong political views in general and are easily maliable or because they are relatively single issue type of voters.

Additionally, the notion that independents swing elections hinges on the notion that ones base is sured up. Had the Republican nominee been someone popular with the base, I'd say going with someone whose liberal in any sense would be reasonable. However, because the Republican nominee is not popular with the base, but because the Democratic nominee is so unpopular with the base, I think the farthest you can go is someone who is a moderate in some sense. That's why someone like Christie, whose socially moderate, would be good in my opinion. He's conservative enough in some areas to help secure the base, but he's moderate enough socially to potentially win over Independents who avoid the Republicans due to the social issues but don't are open to the Republican ideas fiscally.

As to your entire argument about Johnson in terms of the debates...I'd happily debate you on that as I have with others in another thread. I like Johnson, but he had no business being in the debates.

So essentially your suggestion for who in the party would make a good VP candidate is someone whose running on a ticket opposing the party. Brilliant.
 
Ummm...what. Please, go up to any political scientist and suggest ot them the "youth vote" decides presidential elections. The Youth Vote is largely an irrelevant and rather stereotypical vote in almost every year but 2008.

Now, independents do tend to help swing elections. Unfortunately, Independents are not exactly a monolithic group in their thinking. There are independents who lean both left and right and few that are largely in the middle, typically because they have no real strong political views in general and are easily maliable or because they are relatively single issue type of voters.

Additionally, the notion that independents swing elections hinges on the notion that ones base is sured up. Had the Republican nominee been someone popular with the base, I'd say going with someone whose liberal in any sense would be reasonable. However, because the Republican nominee is not popular with the base, but because the Democratic nominee is so unpopular with the base, I think the farthest you can go is someone who is a moderate in some sense. That's why someone like Christie, whose socially moderate, would be good in my opinion. He's conservative enough in some areas to help secure the base, but he's moderate enough socially to potentially win over Independents who avoid the Republicans due to the social issues but don't are open to the Republican ideas fiscally.

As to your entire argument about Johnson in terms of the debates...I'd happily debate you on that as I have with others in another thread. I like Johnson, but he had no business being in the debates.


So essentially your suggestion for who in the party would make a good VP candidate is someone whose running on a ticket opposing the party. Brilliant.
either your reading comprehension is turned off or you are re-visiting your strawman to have something to argue
neither scenario would be found flattering
 
either your reading comprehension is turned off or you are re-visiting your strawman to have something to argue
neither scenario would be found flattering

SO "someone like" Johnson. Have a name or...shall we magic one up from Snails and puppy dog tails?
 
Personally I'd go with Jack Johnson or John Jackson

Jack+Johnson.jpg

Zyphlin's Law

But since both are probably about 1000 years away...I go back to my statement that I've really came around to the notion of Christie as a good candidate with his mix of Charisma, seeming openness, Fiscal Conservatism, Moderate Social views, and potential to maybe steal a state that's soundly in the Demoratic camp.

Otherwise, of those being named, Portman would likely be good. You want someone not too controversial (admittedly, Christie has the ability to mess that one up), who doesn't put social issues out front, whose not going to piss off the base but doesn't necessarily have to make them giantly successful, and who can bring a few things to the table for Romney. As I said in the other thread abou this....there's generally three criteria I think that needs to play into the pick, with an individual needing to hit at least three: can help win a Swing state; can help win Independents/Disaffected Obama voters; can counter some Romney weaknesses.
 
The problem with Pawlenty is that he did raise taxes as Governor. They were tobacco taxes, not income taxes, but it's still a tax (even if he called it a "medical impact fee."

Paul Ryan could bring some credibility as far as spending cuts, but the problems with Ryan, Ayotte, or Christie would be attention. Any of them is likely to grab a lot more attention than Romney. If they win, everybody will wonder for 4 or 8 years if they'll be running themselves. The thing about Cheney and Biden is that they were both wonks who got into the nitty gritty and didn't steal the role of the "public face" of the administration..

Ron Paul?? Get his convention delegates, round up his supporters into the tent, and he's probably too old to run in 8 years. There's a dark horse for you.
 
I can't disagree with you stronger SheWolf. You seem to think the Republican choice for VP should be someone who, essentially, isn't a republican or a conservative. That's just not realistic or reasonable to expect. It's living in a fantasy land. You also speak as if there is not independent voters who are right leaning but don't side with the Republicans in voting typically because they disagree on social issues. I think there are a fair number of individuals in the middle and even on the left, that frankly don't have a huge issue with fiscal conservatism but tend to vote the other way due ot social issues. And I think the Republicans will have more luck having a net positive effect going after that group then attempting to go after...well...liberals and liberal leaning independents...which appears to be what you want.

People are more concerned with economic issues than social issues. I am not pro life, but I can vote for somebody who is. I wouldn't have a problem voting for somebody extremely pro life, religious, and pro abstinence like Palin though. I used to support GW Bush and he was pro life and religious, but he didn't come off as extreme as her in the beginning. I don't expect Romney to pick a liberal VP candidate.

But the fact is, people are more concerned with economics than social issues overall. I think people are going to vote based on their belief if the candidate can help their personal economic situation... unemployment, declining quality of life, stagnant middle class, etc. basically their personal concerns and it could include their industry like outsourcing manufacturing jobs, etc. When it comes to economics, are more concerned with personal, daily issues over GOP economic principles themselves.

Whoever wins, is going to be the candidate which best communicates to the voters that they intend to fix the economy for them.
 
Palin had been a mayor (executive position) and a governor (executive position) of a state that required coordination with foreign nations (foreign experience)

and the 2008 Democrat Presidential Candidate's executive experience was...... what, again?

See Fiddy... people are going to debate you on weather or not Palin was inexperienced and incompetent.

So you think Palin was brighter and more experienced than Obama, Cpwill, then why is her career in decline and not rising? Do you think her positions were somewhat extreme?
 
People are more concerned with economic issues than social issues.

See, we disagree here.

Or more, we likely disagree with what that may mean. I think many independents are more likely to vote FOR someone due to economic issues, but I think they are more likely to NOT vote for someone due to social issues...if that makes sense?

I think the Republicans would do better with a Fiscally Conservative, Moderately Social candidate in terms of gaining independents then a Fiscally Moderate, Socially Conservative one. I think you're right that there are going to be people voting for who they think will help their economic situation. Where we differ is you think that independents won't vote for the Republican side of that. I disagree. I think there ARE independents that the Republicans could win over on those issues but fail to because of the distaste on the social issues.
 
Ron Paul?? Get his convention delegates, round up his supporters into the tent, and he's probably too old to run in 8 years. There's a dark horse for you.

Had Gingrich won the nomination, I actually wouldn't have been shocked to see Paul get tapped for VP. It's the shrewd kind of political move that Gingrich would make, and I think the way Gingrich was complimenting Paul at times helped play into my thinking. However I have a real hard time seeing Paul or Romney going for that ticket together.
 
Pardon me while I hold my nose for the coming election.
 
To be fair, what is a moderate republican and a standard republican and a winger has shifted somewhat distinctly to the right. It is hard to blame some people for being behind in their identifications.

I used to like Romney... Hell, I used to really like McCain until he picked Palin, but it seems like they both moved to the far right to grab the nomination for some reason. I was hoping Romney could change the party some, make it less about social conservatism, and that he would demonstrate the intelligence and leadership abilities to win trust and show he had simple economic solutions. I kind of hoped he would move the GOP towards a more moderate view on social issues because most people are modern, and focus on personal economic concerns. It seemed like a reasonable belief, but he doesn't have the leadership capabilities. He also stinks at relating to people on a lot of levels.

And the fact is, when it comes to social issues, the GOP is on the losing side. Most people and most moderates are not comfortable with extreme pro life ideology. Eventually, gay marriage is going to be legal... younger people are more open about it, it's a matter of time IMO. The GOP could soften their imagine on social issues some.
 
I used to like Romney... Hell, I used to really like McCain until he picked Palin, but it seems like they both moved to the far right to grab the nomination for some reason. I was hoping Romney could change the party some, make it less about social conservatism, and that he would demonstrate the intelligence and leadership abilities to win trust and show he had simple economic solutions. I kind of hoped he would move the GOP towards a more moderate view on social issues because most people are modern, and focus on personal economic concerns. It seemed like a reasonable belief, but he doesn't have the leadership capabilities. He also stinks at relating to people on a lot of levels.

And the fact is, when it comes to social issues, the GOP is on the losing side. Most people and most moderates are not comfortable with extreme pro life ideology. Eventually, gay marriage is going to be legal... younger people are more open about it, it's a matter of time IMO. The GOP could soften their imagine on social issues some.
in the republican primary, the candidates are obligated to appeal to the far right because they will not win the nomination otherwise
then, when the national election results, they have a candidate who does not have widespread appeal
the GOP's only hope then is that the democrats will nominate a loser like dukakis or gore or kerry
 
See, we disagree here.

Or more, we likely disagree with what that may mean. I think many independents are more likely to vote FOR someone due to economic issues, but I think they are more likely to NOT vote for someone due to social issues...if that makes sense?

I think the Republicans would do better with a Fiscally Conservative, Moderately Social candidate in terms of gaining independents then a Fiscally Moderate, Socially Conservative one. I think you're right that there are going to be people voting for who they think will help their economic situation. Where we differ is you think that independents won't vote for the Republican side of that. I disagree. I think there ARE independents that the Republicans could win over on those issues but fail to because of the distaste on the social issues.

Your first paragraph is a little confusing, but it will be economic issues. If somebody is more concerned with social issues, and their social issues are extreme... then they are not a winning candidate in this climate. Whoever has the best economic solutions will win.

I don't think it will be the GOP principles as they have been laid out and discussed before. The GOP economic position is more of a macro approach, so it's difficult for it to appeal to people on a personal level. Supply side, free trade, and trickle down tax cuts seem to be the most common GOP economic policies, and they don't reach the the single mother hoping she can find a second job to increase the quality of life for her family... it doesn't reach the middle aged husband with mounting debt because he was just diagnosed with a health condition, etc. The candidate has to relate their policies to individual people, and convince the people their economic policies are the best. The GOP tactic on discussing economics doesn't usually take that approach, and the voters are not convinced there is one way and one way only to create jobs. The candidates have a lot of convincing to do, and they will benefit if they plan new approaches to current problems.
 
Your first paragraph is a little confusing, but it will be economic issues. If somebody is more concerned with social issues, and their social issues are extreme... then they are not a winning candidate in this climate. Whoever has the best economic solutions will win.

Essentially my first line was saying this...

Lets say you have Joe Independent. Joe Independent is currently undecided and unless something convinces him to vote one way or another, he's likely staying home.

In terms of getting him to say "Yes I'm going to vote for ticket X", I think economic issues are going to be more important. IE, whichever party can convince him their economic plan is the better one is more likely to get him to move from not voting to voting for them.

However, I think social issues are something that's going to make that person say "No I'm not going to vote for that ticket". And I think, while economic issues may be more important to getting someone to GIVE their support...I think the social issue is the overriding barrier to even consider the vote.

I aslo think, in general, Independents tend to be socially moderate to left leaning. So what this means, in my opinion at least, is that for such an independent to be open to LISTENING to your fiscal message in the first place....you have to not put such a bad taste in their mouth socially that they won't even listen to your argument. So while they may like the argument from a moderate fiscal conservative, they won't really get to that point because they're too turned off by the socially conservative message.

So I guess what I'm saying is that I believe there are more indepenents that are turned off from moment one by Socially Conservative candidates then there are that are turned off from moment one of Fiscally Conservative candidates....and thus if you're going moderate in one of those two places for a Republican VP, social is the better option to go. I also think the Fiscally Conservative case can be pitched to Independents in a more appealing fashion than the Socially Conservative message.
 
I know Christie is moderate on social issues, but I don't think that that would help him with liberal leaning voters or voters concerned with union rights, unemployment, retirement age, living standards, etc.

And we are in agreement, however, being an independent doesn't mean that they naturally take one set of assumptions over another. You are assuming that to be independent is to be interested in maintaining the status-quo of public unions throughout the country when those states have debt crises of their own. It did not happen so well with Wisconsin or in New Jersey, and the same might be duplicated elsewhere.

I know that a lot of people on the right, and considered far right, do like Christie

When it came to dealing with the unions in a troubled state, yes, they liked him for achieving results.

... Ann Coulter really likes him. I also know the Bush family talked to him about running for national office or considering the VP, so I don't think the establishment has a problem with him. The establishment GOP always supported Romney. They like Christie because he is far right on economic issues, and he doesn't take ****. That seems to be his calling card, with his aggression, and I don't see it getting many independents or even left leaning independents.

Alright, I have a few problems here. Ann Coulter's opinions are Ann Coulter's, whether or not I would consider her far right is another matter, because I would be far more likely to stick to labeling her a "attention-whoring, obnoxious commentator that will say or do anything to get into the news and to attack liberals, regardless of former stances."

Next, the Bush family. Ok, so we have a set of assumptions here which beg questions. Bush Sr. was a conservative fellow during his time, correct? However, his foreign policy took a lot less "oomph" for the hawks, right? That being said, what I am noticing here is a problem in really sticking to what is "far right." In recent years, the left had taken a liking to Sr. over Jr, whom it labeled as "far right" (mostly just because of the hawkish foreign policy and some social conservative stances). Next, you mention the GOP establishment as being "far right." However, the narrative for the past two years of almost anyone who has used the term "GOP Establishment," meant to connect it with one of the following: "wrong way for conservatives," "sensible conservatives," or "moderates."

Next set of assumptions. While achieving results with regard to unions in New Jersey, comparatively speaking, does New Jersey politics match up really well with southwestern conservatism or southeastern conservatism? If your definition of economic conservatism is to mean less government and less spending, wouldn't one want to think that a certain Republican politician hailing from a House district of Texas that ran for President as fitting the bill of "far right"? Has Christie suggested the close inspection of the Fed, removal of numerous government agencies and/or departments?


My comparison to Palin is because Palin seemed far right, a conservative candidate only. She was inexperienced too, and combined with her far right positions she was basically a doomed national candidate.

Her positions, if I may be so bold, were incredibly vague, for the most part (part of the reason why I was turned off by the ticket). She was a fairly typical conservative populist (which seems to breed catchphrases and vagueness). Was it "far right" to say "Real America," "Lamestream Media," "Drill Baby Drill" and the other assortment of strange catchphrases the woman came up with? If you want to take her position on abortion as an example, I would be willing to play that. If you want to suggest that her top priority being to keep the definition of marriage between man and woman a far Right position, I would accept portions of that but remind the fairly ubiquitous play that position gets across the two parties. However, let me remind you that: she doesn't reject feminism as a whole (she's just a conservative variation), she wants a fully funded IDEA (something that both liberals and conservatives haven't been able/willing to do), is fine with a path to citizenship that is not seen as amnesty for illegal immigrants, and so on.

Was Palin's issue mostly due to inexperience or being too far right? That can be debated all day. But from my personal POV, I saw a lot of Hillary supporters ready to line up and vote for McCain until he put Palin on the ticket. The day her candidacy was announced, they were felt Palin's selection was offensive... and way before the interviews. They didn't like her because she was a major social conservative and everything Hillary was not. I also knew somebody, said he wouldn't vote until Palin entered the race. Her religious philosophy made him so angry, he voted against her.

Her biggest problem was mostly because of her inexperience with the press and/or in politics. Remember the "heartbeat away" rhetoric, remember the Katie interview, remember SNL. Perceived inexperience and incompetence with the media. Voters willing to vote for Hillary Clinton would be far more likely to not vote for Palin because Palin was simply more conservative. I remember the grumbling about Obama, but I never believed for a second that loyal Democrats were going to switch parties over Barack Obama.

I am sure her interview skills and debate performances turned a lot off too, but I definitely know her positions had a lot to do with it as well.

For Democrats or those more willing to vote for a Democrat that time around, "you betcha." For Republicans or those toying with the idea of voting Republican, not so much.
 
Last edited:
See Fiddy... people are going to debate you on weather or not Palin was inexperienced and incompetent.

So you think Palin was brighter and more experienced than Obama, Cpwill, then why is her career in decline and not rising? Do you think her positions were somewhat extreme?

In a horse-race, yeah, Cpwill will argue that Palin had experience over Obama in certain respects. If I again, may be so bold, I am not surprised.
 
Back
Top Bottom