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Obama won the battle, but now likely not the war

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IndepCentristMA

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For a long time I had expected the Supreme Court to toss out the ACA, and deem it unconstitutional (as many others feel it should have been).

Now that the Supreme Court ruling upheld the ACA, Obama has what appears as a massive victory on his hands... which prompted him to come out and make a speech, to say this isn't about who won and lost... then reiterated the reasons he thought he won when he initially signed the bill...

However, it may have been best for Obama if the ruling had been tossed out.

Much of the uproar against Obama has been the ObamaCare resentment. Regardless of how you feel about the merits of the bill, it is impossible to deny the furor most Americans had against both the bill and how the bill was pushed through. That animosity is real and palpable. It alone fueled the major candidacy of an otherwise heavily underqualified Santorum to go from no money at all to being close to being the major party opposition candidate to Obama. There is still an awful feeling from that, and now in addition there is animosity over the Supreme Court decision.

This election started as an election over the economy, with no hot-button issues... Romney had a huge lead in vision of who could fix the economy... then job numbers increased slightly and that gap narrowed... But, now there are several hot-button issues... It's an election which is still largely about the economy, but in middle America / the swing states there have now been lines drawn over gay marriage and nationalized healthcare as issues...

On the coasts and in major cities, both of those policies have enthusiastic support, but in most of America, those policies are either loudly derided, or subtly wished to not be discussed because the people find them so appauling, since they go against the beliefs they hold true and felt their country was founded on. In an election as close as this, where so many of these southern bible belt and rust belt states are going to play a key part of the election, and there was already enough distrust of Obama over his handling of the economy, I doubt he can afford the uproar against ObamaCare and gay marriage.

This Supreme Court decision could spell the end for Obama.
 
whoa now hold on....some of the negatives toward affordable care act were because it was too watered down and some wanted single payer ...that doesn't mean they will vote the president out.
And when people find out the truth about the affordable care act they will no longer be afraid of it...GOP has put out so many lies ,,Romney repeated them the other day...I think it's all going to benefit the president the scotus has legitimized the affordable care act and it has shot down one huge talking point for GOP...people will take another look now that they realize the GOP is simply hysterical troublemakers about it.
 
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The fact that even supposed Harvard educated people think that the ACA is "nationalized healthcare" shows just how much the right wing noise machine can influence even those with the greatest access to information.
 
Debra said:
whoa now hold on....some of the negatives toward affordable care act were because it was too watered down and some wanted single payer ...that doesn't mean they will vote the president out.
And when people find out the truth about the affordable care act they will no longer be afraid of it...GOP has put out so many lies ,,Romney repeated them the other day...I think it's all going to benefit the president the scotus has legitimized the affordable care act and it has shot down one huge talking point for GOP...people will take another look now that they realize the GOP is simply hysterical troublemakers about it.
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the biggest lie put out was Obama claiming to the public the individual mandate was not a tax, and then out of the other side of his face, arguing to SCOTUS it is a tax.
 
It's funny when you ask people what they think about "Obamacare" they are highly negative. But when you ask about the individual components people are highly positive.

Strange world we live in.
 
That the OP calls a Supreme Court decision a battle shows the spin being put into this.

The battle was in getting the Act passed, this was a certification of the results, nothing more.

I suppose the wounded right will try and see some light in all of this, do know one thing, if the Act had been tossed out the GOP would crow about how 'wasted' Obama's first term was so the Supreme Court approval didn't seal Obama's doom. ;)

The GOP is going to run wild like at the town hall meetings, froth will fly from hard set mouths and fleshy jowls will shake. Old women will shriek and throw themselves down howling for 'their country back'. No doubt a few really hot headed 'patriots' will demand the tyrant's blood and scream about Obama being King.

My thought is the more angry and bitter the right sounds the more moderate types will push away from the GOP.
 
ARealConservative said:
a comedy show is a poor way of debating something.

in your own words, explain yourself (if you can)

otherwise, I have a legal brief from the Obama admin that proves what I say, and have offered it multiple times on these forums.
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Not if the comedy show nails it on the head.. which it does.
 
Your Star said:
It's funny when you ask people what they think about "Obamacare" they are highly negative. But when you ask about the individual components people are highly positive.

Strange world we live in.
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Not really considering Fox News and the GOP lie.. err spin machine.
 
PeteEU said:
Not if the comedy show nails it on the head.. which it does.
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all the comedy show does is repeat something you approve of.

it is a horrible debate method, but apparently you have no ability to debate, just link to comedy stances.
 
Debra said:
whoa now hold on....some of the negatives toward affordable care act were because it was too watered down and some wanted single payer ...that doesn't mean they will vote the president out.
And when people find out the truth about the affordable care act they will no longer be afraid of it...GOP has put out so many lies ,,Romney repeated them the other day...I think it's all going to benefit the president the scotus has legitimized the affordable care act and it has shot down one huge talking point for GOP...people will take another look now that they realize the GOP is simply hysterical troublemakers about it.
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The liberals have been saying that before it was enacted. Pelosi even said now that it's passed we can find out what's in it. And your saying no one knows what's in it except liberals. All the liberals know what's in it but no one else. What a crock, the 2010 midterms was about Obamacare, and 2012 will be about it along with the economy and strings of BS from leaks out of the white house, to the rising national debt, to Holder being held in contempt. In fact I would sure like to know what is Obama and Holder hiding. I already know Obamacare is going to raise our national debt that is one thing the people do know about it. But that is nothing new, as whatever Obama does raises the national debt.
 
notquiteright said:
That the OP calls a Supreme Court decision a battle shows the spin being put into this.

The battle was in getting the Act passed, this was a certification of the results, nothing more.

I suppose the wounded right will try and see some light in all of this, do know one thing, if the Act had been tossed out the GOP would crow about how 'wasted' Obama's first term was so the Supreme Court approval didn't seal Obama's doom. ;)

The GOP is going to run wild like at the town hall meetings, froth will fly from hard set mouths and fleshy jowls will shake. Old women will shriek and throw themselves down howling for 'their country back'. No doubt a few really hot headed 'patriots' will demand the tyrant's blood and scream about Obama being King.

My thought is the more angry and bitter the right sounds the more moderate types will push away from the GOP.
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How is that a certification of the results. It goes from a mandate to a tax mandating the same thing, It's just a change of words. Obamacare was bad legislation then and is still bad legislation now. Having the SCOTUS claim it's a tax does nothing to certify anything. There are many battles in a war, winning one battle does not mean you won the war. This is long from over. And even the Dem's now recognize this bill needs fixing, and do you think for a second the Pub's are going to jump in and fix a failed bill. And if you think the American people are going to love being hit with more taxes, with having a national debt climbing above 16 trillions. The fact is Obamacare increases the national debt and takes money out of peoples pocket in the form of a new tax.
 
Debra said:
whoa now hold on....some of the negatives toward affordable care act were because it was too watered down and some wanted single payer ...that doesn't mean they will vote the president out.
And when people find out the truth about the affordable care act they will no longer be afraid of it...GOP has put out so many lies ,,Romney repeated them the other day...I think it's all going to benefit the president the scotus has legitimized the affordable care act and it has shot down one huge talking point for GOP...people will take another look now that they realize the GOP is simply hysterical troublemakers about it.
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Debra, I was all set to respond to the highlighted text...until I saw Born Free make almost the same response I would have made. But I would ask you...after all these years, WHEN WILL we find out the truth about Obamacare? WHEN WILL we no longer be afraid of it?
 
notquiteright said:
That the OP calls a Supreme Court decision a battle shows the spin being put into this.

The battle was in getting the Act passed, this was a certification of the results, nothing more.

I suppose the wounded right will try and see some light in all of this, do know one thing, if the Act had been tossed out the GOP would crow about how 'wasted' Obama's first term was so the Supreme Court approval didn't seal Obama's doom. ;)

The GOP is going to run wild like at the town hall meetings, froth will fly from hard set mouths and fleshy jowls will shake. Old women will shriek and throw themselves down howling for 'their country back'. No doubt a few really hot headed 'patriots' will demand the tyrant's blood and scream about Obama being King.

My thought is the more angry and bitter the right sounds the more moderate types will push away from the GOP.
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The "battle" in getting Obamacare passed was amongst the Democrats, themselves. The Republicans and the People were shut out...ignored. The Democrats reaped the reward for their actions in 2010 and...now that the Supremes have exposed Obama and the Democrats as liars...they will reap further rewards in 2012.
 
Mycroft said:
Debra, I was all set to respond to the highlighted text...until I saw Born Free make almost the same response I would have made. But I would ask you...after all these years, WHEN WILL we find out the truth about Obamacare? WHEN WILL we no longer be afraid of it?
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Seems like the reasonable response would be: when you decide to read it.

If you have insurance, this won't effect you....other than lowering your premium. This represents 94% of the US population. The other 6% will buy in, have some subsidies or pay the penalty.

It still amazes me how much noise is being made by those not affected by this in a negative manner, while they defend those who are not in the pool. Once again, cons are working against their own self interests.
 
PeteEU said:
Not if the comedy show nails it on the head.. which it does.
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Yeah.....except it doesn't.

In terms of what ARC was saying...that this was pushed, by Obama, as something that was absolutely not a tax and but his lawyers get it upheld under the argument that "it's a tax"...the Daily Show simply furthers that by showing Obama stating it absolutely isn't a tax. What your show response doesn't address, at all, and by virtue you haven't addressed, at all, is that Obama's own legal team is the one that put forth the argument that it was constitutional under the provisions for the government to tax people.

Further...they kind of ****ed up with their attempt to be sarcasic and biting when they have Romney state this:

2:28: "What are the things we'll keep in place. We have to make sure that people who want to keep their current insurance will be able to do so"

Stewart then sarcastically remarks that hey, that's already in Obamacare.

Well no **** guys...your own video cut up of Romney just said, RIGHT before stating that provision, that there were things that he'd like to keep in place.

He then does the same sarcastic response in regards to helping states make health care affordable (here's your issue with quoting a damn political show...there's more than one way to do that and it's possible to disagree with the method it was done without disagreeing with the general premise.) But please, let's continue on the daily show sarcastically responding to Mitt Romney for stating things in the healthcare bill right after showing him saying he wants to make sure he keeps some things intact.

So basically you've presented an "argument" that barely addressed his point, and where it DID address it actually backs his point up, and then stupidly references things sarcastically for a bit until coming up with the final conclussion of "Well yeah, it's a tax but...um...so what!" which still doesn't address ARC's comment at all.



....I mean yeah, you're right, that TOTALLY blew it out of the water, what an intelligent and mindblowingly great way to respond on a debate site :roll:
 
Gimmesometruth said:
Once again, cons are working against their own self interests.
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It must really amaze you that some of us prefer to do what is right, even if it isn’t in our “self interests”.

Maybe liberals that pretend to be altruistic could give it a shot sometime?
 
notquiteright said:
That the OP calls a Supreme Court decision a battle shows the spin being put into this.

The battle was in getting the Act passed, this was a certification of the results, nothing more.

I suppose the wounded right will try and see some light in all of this, do know one thing, if the Act had been tossed out the GOP would crow about how 'wasted' Obama's first term was so the Supreme Court approval didn't seal Obama's doom. ;)

The GOP is going to run wild like at the town hall meetings, froth will fly from hard set mouths and fleshy jowls will shake. Old women will shriek and throw themselves down howling for 'their country back'. No doubt a few really hot headed 'patriots' will demand the tyrant's blood and scream about Obama being King.

My thought is the more angry and bitter the right sounds the more moderate types will push away from the GOP.
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Hope springs eternal doesn't it? The process of delegitimization has already begun and won't disappear because the legislation was passed through fraud in the inducement. This characterization means that the decision in Roberts v. America won't be accepted by tens of millions. The net effect is to poison the well as far as American political culture is concerned.
 
ARealConservative said:
It must really amaze you that some of us prefer to do what is right, even if it isn’t in our “self interests”.

Maybe liberals that pretend to be altruistic could give it a shot sometime?
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Until you can state what is "right" and contrast that to the "wrong", you haven't made a point.

Supposedly the rw wants to stop the "free ride" of skipping out on medical expenditures. This law works towards that while simultaneously working to contain costs and expand HC.

What I see most rwers complaining about is the process to that end, and ignoring that the means is originally a rw (Heritage Foundation) concept, ie moving the uninsured into private insurance policies.
 
I do not know if this makes it harder for Obama to win. I think it helps Romney, but for those that wanted some type of universal healthcare, they might feel the need to go out and vote more now than before in order to keep Obamacare around.
 
Gimmesometruth said:
Until you can state what is "right" and contrast that to the "wrong", you haven't made a point.

Supposedly the rw wants to stop the "free ride" of skipping out on medical expenditures. This law works towards that while simultaneously working to contain costs and expand HC.

What I see most rwers complaining about is the process to that end, and ignoring that the means is originally a rw (Heritage Foundation) concept, ie moving the uninsured into private insurance policies.
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I made a point, it just went over your head.

not once did I claim what I find is right is universally right I explained that I don't support things simply because they help me. I do things based on what I feel is right and wrong. Sometimes what I feel is right is not in my own financial interest
 
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ARealConservative said:
I made a point, it just went over your head.
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No, you made specific point countering my point or establishing one of yours, you just made a vague, broad moral appeal.

not once did I claim what I find is right is universally right I explained that I don't support things simply because they help me. I do things based on what I feel is right and wrong. Sometimes what I feel is right is not in my own financial interest
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Yawn, more of the same broad appeals to your own morals without application to the specific topics we were discussing.

In other words, empty rhetoric. Where's the beef?
 
Gimmesometruth said:
No, you made specific point countering my point or establishing one of yours, you just made a vague, broad moral appeal.

Yawn, more of the same broad appeals to your own morals without application to the specific topics we were discussing.

In other words, empty rhetoric. Where's the beef?
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You are making no sense.

You seems generally confused that some of us support things that don't help us personally.

I simply pointed out I have different motives, and you seem to be puzzled that my motives have nothing to do with my own financial gain.

I definitely made a point, and it definitely went over your head.
 
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