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Obama won the battle, but now likely not the war

Mycroft said:
Your comments are eerily reminiscient of the Democratic rhetoric leading up to the 2010 election. Remember how that turned out?
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yes, keep thinking its 2010. The one nice thing about Progressives, is that we have our eyes on the road ahead.
 
upsideguy said:
yes, keep thinking its 2010. The one nice thing about Progressives, is that we have our eyes on the road ahead.
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With the way you spend money that cannot possibly be true.
 
ARealConservative said:
the biggest lie put out was Obama claiming to the public the individual mandate was not a tax, and then out of the other side of his face, arguing to SCOTUS it is a tax.
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But it's not a tax. It's a tax "penalty" and would act in the same manner as a "fine" for punitive measure. The only reason it falls under the tax code is because tax penalties have long been a part of our tax code. Moreover, how else was Congress to ensure this piece of legislation stood a chance to pass Constitutional muster unless legislators used the "taxing power" under the Constitution?

Honestly, I find it ironic that so many people are so up in arms over the individual mandate. I mean, are you just as pissed off because you're mandated at the state-level to purchase auto insurance? The same "take responsibility for yourself and stop being irresponsible by not having insurance because the costs are having a widespread negative consequences" argument at the state-level concerning auto insurance is exactly what's behind the individual mandate at the federal level. How people can't see the similarities completely baffles me.
 
soccerboy22 said:
I do not know if this makes it harder for Obama to win. I think it helps Romney, but for those that wanted some type of universal healthcare, they might feel the need to go out and vote more now than before in order to keep Obamacare around.
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The difference is the people who support universal healthcare tend to exist in the states that are already blue... the ones in the states that are toss ups tend to resent this kind of government intrusion into their lives...

(also you missed a few BC Men's Hockey champions in there... selective memory? and oddly enough the Revs winning the Superliga and US Open Cups... soccerboy)
 
Gimmesometruth said:
The fact that even supposed Harvard educated people think that the ACA is "nationalized healthcare" shows just how much the right wing noise machine can influence even those with the greatest access to information.
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I love how you still have so much jealousy over my education...

But, please show me where I said I feel the ACA is "nationalized healthcare"...

This post isn't about what I feel about ACA, but how I feel the ACA and the Supreme Court's decision to uphold it under questionable grounds will effect the current presidential election...

notquiteright said:
That the OP calls a Supreme Court decision a battle shows the spin being put into this.

The battle was in getting the Act passed, this was a certification of the results, nothing more.

I suppose the wounded right will try and see some light in all of this, do know one thing, if the Act had been tossed out the GOP would crow about how 'wasted' Obama's first term was so the Supreme Court approval didn't seal Obama's doom. ;)

The GOP is going to run wild like at the town hall meetings, froth will fly from hard set mouths and fleshy jowls will shake. Old women will shriek and throw themselves down howling for 'their country back'. No doubt a few really hot headed 'patriots' will demand the tyrant's blood and scream about Obama being King.

My thought is the more angry and bitter the right sounds the more moderate types will push away from the GOP.
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Ah, yet another person who clearly misinterpreted the original post...

This isn't "spin"... this is analysis of the presidential election, oddly enough, in the forum to be discussing the presidential election... go figure...

Again, regardless of how anyone feels about the ACA personally... to deny the loud uproar caused and the political backing of the heavily unfunded and at many times amature campaigning of Rick Santorum, solely because he bashed ObamaCare and made it his only priority would be ignorant...

There is a real and palpable hatred of this bill, how it was passed, and many of the aspects of it... and that hatred tends to be from people in many of the rural areas in border/swing states such as IA, MO, OH, TN, NC, etc. It could be just what pushes MI and PA over... and is very unpopular in many areas in FL...

I feel that he would've stood a better chance at re-election had this bill been thrown out, than had it been upheld in the manner it was...
 
Objective Voice said:
But it's not a tax. It's a tax "penalty" and would act in the same manner as a "fine" for punitive measure. The only reason it falls under the tax code is because tax penalties have long been a part of our tax code. Moreover, how else was Congress to ensure this piece of legislation stood a chance to pass Constitutional muster unless legislators used the "taxing power" under the Constitution?

Honestly, I find it ironic that so many people are so up in arms over the individual mandate. I mean, are you just as pissed off because you're mandated at the state-level to purchase auto insurance? The same "take responsibility for yourself and stop being irresponsible by not having insurance because the costs are having a widespread negative consequences" argument at the state-level concerning auto insurance is exactly what's behind the individual mandate at the federal level. How people can't see the similarities completely baffles me.
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It's a not a tax penalty either... it was a bogus ruling...

and I think you dismiss the fact that 1) not all states mandate auto-insurance (especially the ones where a lot of the uproar is coming from), and 2) having a state issue done by a local government to tackle a local issue is different from something done by a centralized federal government that many feel has been dwarfing in its power and scope from what many people feel the founding fathers established to a point they are close to willing to revolt against... heck many of the "Occupy" protestors already have...
 
IndepCentristMA said:
For a long time I had expected the Supreme Court to toss out the ACA, and deem it unconstitutional (as many others feel it should have been).

Now that the Supreme Court ruling upheld the ACA, Obama has what appears as a massive victory on his hands... which prompted him to come out and make a speech, to say this isn't about who won and lost... then reiterated the reasons he thought he won when he initially signed the bill...

However, it may have been best for Obama if the ruling had been tossed out.

Much of the uproar against Obama has been the ObamaCare resentment. Regardless of how you feel about the merits of the bill, it is impossible to deny the furor most Americans had against both the bill and how the bill was pushed through. That animosity is real and palpable. It alone fueled the major candidacy of an otherwise heavily underqualified Santorum to go from no money at all to being close to being the major party opposition candidate to Obama. There is still an awful feeling from that, and now in addition there is animosity over the Supreme Court decision.

This election started as an election over the economy, with no hot-button issues... Romney had a huge lead in vision of who could fix the economy... then job numbers increased slightly and that gap narrowed... But, now there are several hot-button issues... It's an election which is still largely about the economy, but in middle America / the swing states there have now been lines drawn over gay marriage and nationalized healthcare as issues...

On the coasts and in major cities, both of those policies have enthusiastic support, but in most of America, those policies are either loudly derided, or subtly wished to not be discussed because the people find them so appauling, since they go against the beliefs they hold true and felt their country was founded on. In an election as close as this, where so many of these southern bible belt and rust belt states are going to play a key part of the election, and there was already enough distrust of Obama over his handling of the economy, I doubt he can afford the uproar against ObamaCare and gay marriage.

This Supreme Court decision could spell the end for Obama.
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I'm not worried about Obama. I want to know is when he wins his second term, will you all pack up your tents and go back home like good Americans do when they lose an election? It would show your love of country and your understanding of the democratic process.
 
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iguanaman said:
I'm not worried about Obama. I want to know is when he wins his second term, will you all pack up your tents and go back home like good Americans do when they lose an election? It would show your love of country and your understanding of the democratic process.
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Yeah... I know the democratic process in this country quite well...

I remember it begining "When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another"... and then continuing on to establish that... "Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

and under the way this country is being run at the moment, it's getting pretty close to that point...
 
IndepCentristMA said:
Yeah... I know the democratic process in this country quite well...

I remember it begining "When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another"... and then continuing on to establish that... "Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

and under the way this country is being run at the moment, it's getting pretty close to that point...
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So you're throwing in with the Sore Loser Militia! The kvetch heard 'round the world!
 
upsideguy said:
If Obama is reelected, and he most likely will be, then this piece of legislation will be as institutionalized in American culture as social security and Medicare. The irony is that if Romney spends to much time campaigning on this issue, given he delivered the healthcare mandate to America, he will detract from his main message and shine the spotlight boldly on his hypocrisy (he will lose)....

This battle is lost, Cons. Its time to get a life and move on lest you wish to also lose the War of 2012.

BTW... does anyone want to laugh that the notion that the Regressives are upset about a Republican appointed SCOTUS justice being key in striking down a Republican challenge to a Republican idea (the Mandate was invented by the Heritage Foundation) that was implemented in Massachusetts by the current Republican nominee for POTUS? Sounds like the Gang that Couldn't Shoot Straight.
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Liberals want to build something don't they? It is difficult to build, but easy to monkey wrench. That's what both sides do.
 
IndepCentristMA said:
Yeah... I know the democratic process in this country quite well...

I remember it begining "When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another"... and then continuing on to establish that... "Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

and under the way this country is being run at the moment, it's getting pretty close to that point...
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Ii


In your opinion.....I'm so sick of you republicans saying President Obamabis destroying our country or taking away you freedom its really so stupid and ludicrous ..you claim he is too blame for high unemployment and for spending too much..really? Really? Why don't you give us some facts? Back up the ridiculous things you blame him for with something substantial I'm sick of the CONSTANT WHINING! Get over it'! You are all really sore losers!
 
upsideguy said:
So what? Nothing in its character is any different today than when it was passed. If you didn't see that then, then you shouldn't complain about it now. Nothing has changed. To feign outrage now that it is a tax is nothing short of disingenuous.
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Disengenuity is now part of the American political system. I think we both are compelled to accept that as a reality.
 
upsideguy said:
yes, keep thinking its 2010. The one nice thing about Progressives, is that we have our eyes on the road ahead.
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What do you eyes tell you? Do they tell you that the Democrats will recapture the House this year and hold the Senate? Do your eyes tell you that your side is omnipotent?
 
Albert Di Salvo said:
Liberals want to build something don't they? It is difficult to build, but easy to monkey wrench. That's what both sides do.
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Liberals DO build things..... virtually every piece of landmark legislation in US history, not including war declarations or tax adjustments. was crafted, sponsored and passed by the Democrats. The Recons have contributed ZIPPO to the US lawmaking and policy. For their entire existence they have moved forward on the backs of the Democrats, kicking and screaming all the way.
 
Albert Di Salvo said:
What do you eyes tell you? Do they tell you that the Democrats will recapture the House this year and hold the Senate? Do your eyes tell you that your side is omnipotent?
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The Dems will win the White House and hold the Senate. If the ReCons are unable to get beyond their loss on Thursday and overplay this as an issue, they will lose the House as well, otherwise, they are likely to hold the House but lose quite a few seats...... As we know, however, holding the Senate does nothing by give you committee chairmanships; unless one of these parties has the guts to change the Fillibuster rules or one of the parties learns to use the Fillibuster responsibly.
 
upsideguy said:
Liberals DO build things..... virtually every piece of landmark legislation in US history, not including war declarations or tax adjustments. was crafted, sponsored and passed by the Democrats. The Recons have contributed ZIPPO to the US lawmaking and policy. For their entire existence they have moved forward on the backs of the Democrats, kicking and screaming all the way.
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I believe things are going to become much more difficult for this country.
 
Objective Voice said:
But it's not a tax. It's a tax "penalty" and would act in the same manner as a "fine" for punitive measure. The only reason it falls under the tax code is because tax penalties have long been a part of our tax code. Moreover, how else was Congress to ensure this piece of legislation stood a chance to pass Constitutional muster unless legislators used the "taxing power" under the Constitution?

Honestly, I find it ironic that so many people are so up in arms over the individual mandate. I mean, are you just as pissed off because you're mandated at the state-level to purchase auto insurance? The same "take responsibility for yourself and stop being irresponsible by not having insurance because the costs are having a widespread negative consequences" argument at the state-level concerning auto insurance is exactly what's behind the individual mandate at the federal level. How people can't see the similarities completely baffles me.
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Your first paragraph is nothing but rhetorical spin...and some of it is after-the-fact spin. I really don't think the Democrats...when they passed this monstrosity...had any intention of passing it off as a tax.

In your second paragraph, you are trying to use apples to justify lemons. Certain States mandate auto insurance purchase...if you want to drive a car. You have a choice to drive a car or not. By your attempted connection, you are saying the federal government is mandating health insurance purchase...if you want to live. Are you suggesting people should choose to not live if they don't want to buy health insurance?

Now, the stuff in both paragraphs might sway a person who makes decisions based on sound-bites, but they won't work with a person who typically inhabits a political forum.
 
upsideguy said:
The Dems will win the White House and hold the Senate. If the ReCons are unable to get beyond their loss on Thursday and overplay this as an issue, they will lose the House as well, otherwise, they are likely to hold the House but lose quite a few seats...... As we know, however, holding the Senate does nothing by give you committee chairmanships; unless one of these parties has the guts to change the Fillibuster rules or one of the parties learns to use the Fillibuster responsibly.
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You have every thing covered except for the forces and processes of history. How will a paralyzed America deal with a unified Han China? The Han have already seized Globalization from America and disempowered many American workers. Look for this trend to continue as America hemmorhages power and wealth.

What is going to stop your side is the fact that the American dominated era of world history is over. The net effect of that fact will be declining standards of living among a poorly educated American people. Heres' an article you may find interesting:

The Politics of Loss > Publications > National Affairs
 
IndepCentristMA said:
Yeah... I know the democratic process in this country quite well...

I remember it begining "When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another"... and then continuing on to establish that... "Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

and under the way this country is being run at the moment, it's getting pretty close to that point...
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I think it is what you have forgotten that is the problem. The votes of the people shall be upheld.
 
upsideguy said:
Liberals DO build things..... virtually every piece of landmark legislation in US history, not including war declarations or tax adjustments. was crafted, sponsored and passed by the Democrats. The Recons have contributed ZIPPO to the US lawmaking and policy. For their entire existence they have moved forward on the backs of the Democrats, kicking and screaming all the way.
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This is probably one of the biggest falsehoods I have read in awhile on this website. I'm not Republican, but, if you want to make a statement, at least fact check it. I will agree with you that the GOP hasn't done anything of worth since Clintion was POTUS. However, to say they've never done anything in HISTORY, is inaccurate to say the least.

-In 1862, the Republican-controlled 37th Congress passed the Pacific Railway Act, establishing the transcontinental railroad. The bill, written by U.S. Representative Samuel Curtis (R-IA), was signed into law later that day by Republican President Abraham Lincoln.
-In 1862, the Republican-controlled 37th Congress passed the Land-Grant College Act. The law, written by Representative Justin Morrill (R-VT), distributed federal land to states to fund the establishment of colleges and universities throughout the country. The dozens of land-grant colleges include the Cornell University, Iowa State University, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, University of Arizona, and the University of Illinois, among many others.
-Congressional Republicans passed the 13th Amendment unanimously – against nearly unanimous Democrat opposition – and it was ratified within the year.
-The principal author of the 14th Amendment was U.S. Rep. John Bingham (R-OH). In Congress, all votes in favor of the 14th Amendment were from Republicans, and all votes against it were from Democrats.
-Just a few days after passage of the GOP’s 1957 Civil Rights Act, the Democrat governor of Arkansas ordered the National Guard to prevent the court-ordered racial integration of a public high school in Little Rock. Republican President Dwight Eisenhower refused to tolerate defiance of the federal judiciary. Under a plan suggested by his attorney general, the President placed the governor’s soldiers under federal control and ordered federal troops to the state, where they escorted African-American children to school.

Republicans were unfazed by the many Democrats, including John Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson, who criticized President Eisenhower for the action he took to uphold civil rights.
-In August 1996, the Republican-controlled 104th Congress passed the GOP's Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act
 
Your Star said:
It's funny when you ask people what they think about "Obamacare" they are highly negative. But when you ask about the individual components people are highly positive.

Strange world we live in.
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:shrug: If you ask people if they want free candy, they say yes. If you ask them if they would like to pay for candy, they say no.
 
If the Federal Government would spend the money to put some informational programs about ACA on the air -- explaining to people how it will work for them, then those who don't support the ACA because they don't really understand it would be eliminated.
 
hazlnut said:
If the Federal Government would spend the money to put some informational programs about ACA on the air -- explaining to people how it will work for them, then those who don't support the ACA because they don't really understand it would be eliminated.
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:lamo

I can't wait for that to start happening :).

And I love how it's assumed that those who oppose it "must just not understand". As though we haven't hammered this thing out ad nauseum over the last two and a half years.
 
MarineTpartier said:
This is probably one of the biggest falsehoods I have read in awhile on this website. I'm not Republican, but, if you want to make a statement, at least fact check it. I will agree with you that the GOP hasn't done anything of worth since Clintion was POTUS. However, to say they've never done anything in HISTORY, is inaccurate to say the least.

-In 1862, the Republican-controlled 37th Congress passed the Pacific Railway Act, establishing the transcontinental railroad. The bill, written by U.S. Representative Samuel Curtis (R-IA), was signed into law later that day by Republican President Abraham Lincoln.
-In 1862, the Republican-controlled 37th Congress passed the Land-Grant College Act. The law, written by Representative Justin Morrill (R-VT), distributed federal land to states to fund the establishment of colleges and universities throughout the country. The dozens of land-grant colleges include the Cornell University, Iowa State University, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, University of Arizona, and the University of Illinois, among many others.
-Congressional Republicans passed the 13th Amendment unanimously – against nearly unanimous Democrat opposition – and it was ratified within the year.
-The principal author of the 14th Amendment was U.S. Rep. John Bingham (R-OH). In Congress, all votes in favor of the 14th Amendment were from Republicans, and all votes against it were from Democrats.
-Just a few days after passage of the GOP’s 1957 Civil Rights Act, the Democrat governor of Arkansas ordered the National Guard to prevent the court-ordered racial integration of a public high school in Little Rock. Republican President Dwight Eisenhower refused to tolerate defiance of the federal judiciary. Under a plan suggested by his attorney general, the President placed the governor’s soldiers under federal control and ordered federal troops to the state, where they escorted African-American children to school.

Republicans were unfazed by the many Democrats, including John Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson, who criticized President Eisenhower for the action he took to uphold civil rights.
-In August 1996, the Republican-controlled 104th Congress passed the GOP's Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act
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You don't find it troubling that almost all of those accomplishments took place in the 19th century when, let's be honest, the makeup of the parties was completely different?
 
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