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Nasty Rhetoric and witch hunts in the air.

Zyphlin said:
I'd like to see the stats for that honestly because that really doesn't seem correct. Not saying you're wrong, but just that the numbers don't sound right at first glance.
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Here's one attempt to explain the situation with a paragraph that says why it is actually impossible to determine the actual numbers



The history of the filibuster, in one graph

This is an imperfect measure. On the one hand, it’s susceptible to changes in congressional strategy: If the majority begins trying to break the filibuster more often, you could see more cloture votes, even though the filibuster isn’t actually being used any more frequently. On the other side, it misses the many, many, many filibusters that never receive a cloture vote, either because the majority decides that a cloture vote is too time-consuming — simply holding a cloture vote takes about 30 hours of floor time — or because they won’t win it.
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Klein's conclusion is interesting and definitely indicates further study is necessary to understand just what is going on in Congress
... then the practice absolutely skyrockets when Barack Obama takes office.

We can argue about why there were these jumps. But their long-term effect seems to be to raise the bar permanently. Every time filibustering becomes much more common, it pretty much remains at that level, even as Congress and the White House changes hands. So the filibuster becomes more common under Bill Clinton, but remains almost that common under George W. Bush.
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I would say Ezra is offering a relatively balanced initial look at the subject of filibusters but that's just me
 
danarhea said:
From what I understand, the use of the filibuster since Obama took office was more times than the cumulated number of filibusters in the history of the US up to that point. But does that make it filibuster abuse? I am not so sure about that. The Republicans feel quite strongly against what the Democrats want to enact, so that makes use of the filibuster appropriate. Is the filibuster something that our founding fathers envisioned? Definitely not, but our founding fathers did not envision direct election of senators either. Times change. However this issue plays out will be determined by the political atmosphere that exists at any particular moment.
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I say kill the filibuster and let the party's policies stand or fall on their own. If their policies fail, those politicians responsible will be booted. Let representative democracy truly take effect. If their policies enacted don't represent what the people want, then the people will get rid of them. IMO, the filibuster is just creating a stinky grey area of blame game fabricated to confuse the public and corruption thrives in grey areas.
 
Zyphlin said:
What to address? Your entire premise is flawed and I disagree with just about every ounce of what you stated the people who elected the tea party representitives actually want or believe. Why should I spend time responding to the opinion of what someone who disdains a group thinks the group REALLY wants when my first hand experience tells me flat out that they're wrong?

Let me address it for you again. I disagree entirely, I think your dislike and disdain for the Tea Party makes the likelihood of you understanding how or what they think/want in an objective and accurate manner a slim possability, and believe that you're simply projecting what YOU personally think or hope others think onto them for the purpose of making your point.
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And YOU know the thoughts and minds of all teapartiers? Gimme a break, ego much?

It's funny how tea party support has gone DOWN since 2010. I wonder why?
 
Somerville said:
Here's one attempt to explain the situation with a paragraph that says why it is actually impossible to determine the actual numbers

Klein's conclusion is interesting and definitely indicates further study is necessary to understand just what is going on in Congress

I would say Ezra is offering a relatively balanced initial look at the subject of filibusters but that's just me
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I'd agree save for his reading of it under Bush. Going off his graph and the same thing he's basing it off of (At least I imagine what he's basing it off of since he himself says he doesn't know the actual fillibuster numbers) it did not stay the same under Bush as it was with Clinton and then shot up. It shot up in the last little bit of Bush's. If you look at his graph you'll see that the cloture numbers hit 60 for the first time under Bush and then, as he said, that becomes somewhat the new norm.

Also, what's odd is his data seems different to the one from the graph on Wiki. Not saying his is wrong, just weird that there's two different numbers out there.
 
TheNextEra said:
And YOU know the thoughts and minds of all teapartiers? Gimme a break, ego much?
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Not at all. But being I am a tea partier and know my opinion...given the opinions I've heard actual tea party events I've been too...given the opinion I know of people here on the net that identify as tea partiers...and given that all of those seem to be different than what you suggest, I'm much more willing to trust my opinion on the manner as being more likely to be correct than the opinion of an individual who referred to them in the past as "teabaggers" and generally speaks negatively of them.

Would Tea Partiers rather actually see some action done to decrease the size and scope of government? Absolutely. However bills such as that have been getting voted on...they just keep failing to make it through. But would they rather the government be stagnant and not move rather than just go along with things that continue to increase it or continue to increase taxes? No, I don't think so.
 
You know what TNE, let me apologize. While you've been negative towards the Tea Party you've not been one of those going over the top with the rhetoric for some time and I should've responded more appropriate to the present then the past. So mea culpa.

I disagree there and I think this coming election is going to prove me right. People wanted the teaparty to fight the system, but not to the point the system breaks and we get downgraded. They wanted a voice for fiscal change, but not so drastic that it puts congress to a halt and we can't get anything meaningful done at all. Hell, they are even backtracking now about the mandatory cuts.
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In terms of downgrading...you'll note many people in politics, on TV, and on this very board were insulting the Tea Party because the Tea Party were the ones sitting there stating that they'd rather go into default then to just keep spending money (Though they were wrongly presented as WANTING to be downgraded or go into default as their first option...their first option was to cut spending to a level that we didn't need to borrow money NOR would we default). So it's hard for me to believe that their desire was to actually have their representitives voting and going along with spending more money or raising taxes rather than taking a stand that possibly resulted in downgrading if it didn't succeed.

I think you're wrong that those who supported the Tea Party candidates would rather government action that resulted in spending than government driven to a halt. Unless you meant something else by "Something meaningful". Perhaps you could give us some examples that you think are "meaningful" things that likely would've made its way through the Democratic controlled senate and Democratic controlled white house that would actually be something that the Tea Party supporters wanted. To me...I didn't see any. So what you're basically seemingly saying is that those who supported the Tea Party would've rather seen the government continue to do the things they were mad about...but just do it less...then having the government not do anything at all. I sincerely disagree and to be frank think that such a belief makes no sense.

I'd like $1000 dollars. I don't want a punch in the face. I don't see how agreeing to you giving me $50 dollars and punching me in the gut is a better option based on my stated desires then me getting $0 but also not getting punched. Yet it seems to me that such is what you're suggesting the Tea Party supporters would have preferred.

Now, I do think this election cycle could likely be something different than 2010. Less so due to those that largely swept up Tea Party candidates into victory and more due to those in the middle that are, as you said, just looking for change. Also because this election cycle is more nationally focused due to a Presidential campaign, and that national focus can have a wave affect on the state elections where as 2010 was more apt for a nation wide but localized movement to exert greater pressure.

But I do absolutely believe the Tea Party individuals are doing what their constitutents in general want, or at least are largely doing that. Are there things that bother constituents? I'm sure. Would they rather something else happening? Absolutely. But there's also some reasonable expectations with what can be done when you have only 1 of 3 key parts of the law making process.
 
Zyphlin said:
You know what TNE, let me apologize. While you've been negative towards the Tea Party you've not been one of those going over the top with the rhetoric for some time and I should've responded more appropriate to the present then the past. So mea culpa.



In terms of downgrading...you'll note many people in politics, on TV, and on this very board were insulting the Tea Party because the Tea Party were the ones sitting there stating that they'd rather go into default then to just keep spending money (Though they were wrongly presented as WANTING to be downgraded or go into default as their first option...their first option was to cut spending to a level that we didn't need to borrow money NOR would we default). So it's hard for me to believe that their desire was to actually have their representitives voting and going along with spending more money or raising taxes rather than taking a stand that possibly resulted in downgrading if it didn't succeed.

I think you're wrong that those who supported the Tea Party candidates would rather government action that resulted in spending than government driven to a halt. Unless you meant something else by "Something meaningful". Perhaps you could give us some examples that you think are "meaningful" things that likely would've made its way through the Democratic controlled senate and Democratic controlled white house that would actually be something that the Tea Party supporters wanted. To me...I didn't see any. So what you're basically seemingly saying is that those who supported the Tea Party would've rather seen the government continue to do the things they were mad about...but just do it less...then having the government not do anything at all. I sincerely disagree and to be frank think that such a belief makes no sense.

I'd like $1000 dollars. I don't want a punch in the face. I don't see how agreeing to you giving me $50 dollars and punching me in the gut is a better option based on my stated desires then me getting $0 but also not getting punched. Yet it seems to me that such is what you're suggesting the Tea Party supporters would have preferred.

Now, I do think this election cycle could likely be something different than 2010. Less so due to those that largely swept up Tea Party candidates into victory and more due to those in the middle that are, as you said, just looking for change. Also because this election cycle is more nationally focused due to a Presidential campaign, and that national focus can have a wave affect on the state elections where as 2010 was more apt for a nation wide but localized movement to exert greater pressure.

But I do absolutely believe the Tea Party individuals are doing what their constitutents in general want, or at least are largely doing that. Are there things that bother constituents? I'm sure. Would they rather something else happening? Absolutely. But there's also some reasonable expectations with what can be done when you have only 1 of 3 key parts of the law making process.
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Why are you a part of the tea party?Most of those morons still think the President is Islamic and not born here. Judging from your post I think you are smarter than those idiots even though you are a conservative.The Tea Party has done nothing but hold us back and due to their uncompromising attitude turn the house into a do nothing body.How can you stand to be part of those idiots with the cat hats and a chew in their lips.They are the bottom of the conservative barrel.
 
James D Hill said:
Why are you a part of the tea party?Most of those morons still think the President is Islamic and not born here. Judging from your post I think you are smarter than those idiots even though you are a conservative.The Tea Party has done nothing but hold us back and due to their uncompromising attitude turn the house into a do nothing body.How can you stand to be part of those idiots with the cat hats and a chew in their lips.They are the bottom of the conservative barrel.
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Never seen any group in politics that doesn't have it's share of idiots or assholes...so that's not reason for me not to identify with something. I generally agree with the main ideological desires associated with the Tea Party as put forth in the Contract From America and generally subscribe to the notion that a significant cut in government size and scope is the best recourse for getting the country back into a successful track in the long run. While I disagree with some individual Tea Partiers and even Tea Party groups on specific issues relating to the Tea Party and specifically some that are irrelevant to Tea Party ideology, the general mindset and political stances held by the movement mirror my own.
 
Zyphlin said:
Never seen any group in politics that doesn't have it's share of idiots or assholes...so that's not reason for me not to identify with something. I generally agree with the main ideological desires associated with the Tea Party as put forth in the Contract From America and generally subscribe to the notion that a significant cut in government size and scope is the best recourse for getting the country back into a successful track in the long run. While I disagree with some individual Tea Partiers and even Tea Party groups on specific issues relating to the Tea Party and specifically some that are irrelevant to Tea Party ideology, the general mindset and political stances held by the movement mirror my own.
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I see your side and meant no insult to you personally.I just dislike rednecks due to the fact I am a left winger and a pot smoker.Here in Washington state we are very liberal and are trying to get pot legalized but the social conservatives are screaming like a bunch of babies like they always do.Never mind the fact that the money made would help pay for the things the right wingers would love to cut.Washington will go for Obama just like the rest of the left coast.
 
James D Hill said:
Why are you a part of the tea party?Most of those morons still think the President is Islamic and not born here. Judging from your post I think you are smarter than those idiots even though you are a conservative.The Tea Party has done nothing but hold us back and due to their uncompromising attitude turn the house into a do nothing body.How can you stand to be part of those idiots with the cat hats and a chew in their lips.They are the bottom of the conservative barrel.
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So now you're FOR nasty rhetoric?
 
I think the liberals can conquer America, but they can't conquer the forces of history. The forces and processes of history lined up by accident for America. Now those same forces and processes have moved on from America.

Political and economic power are hemorrhaging from America. Every one on earth realizes this except Americans. Why is this so difficult to perceive?

The change in power dynamics world wide disempowers America and the American people. It's happened to the Spanish, the Portuguese, the Dutch, the British, the Austrians, and others. Now it is happening to the Americans.

The Blue Model of Society is being destroyed from overseas and the rise of other powers. The Blue Model is running out of money. Does any one deny this?

The problem for Democrats and liberals is not Republicans and conservatives. I speak the truth and people seem to resent it. The problem is that there is no escaping the truth. Go to British, Canadian and Australian forums and see what is being said. Shrugs.
 
James D Hill said:
What else are pretty slaves for? You can't tell me this is not the most nasty rhetoric in our lifetime. I have never seen the mad dog right so furious. I have news for these guys. Here on the west coast we think they are crazy unless you go out in the sticks but the are the minority. Here in Washington state all you have to do is carry three counties and all the rednecks are defeated.
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Mainly because the bulk of the population lives in those counties (and we generally carry 5-7 counties, depending on the election. Fortunately the rest of the state is composed of trees in the west and sagebrush in the east.
 
James D Hill said:
Is it just me or is this getting really nasty? It seems like everything the President does is an outrage for the right wing. Every time He tries to take credit for something good He had done or attemted to do the right is up in arms and trying to create a witch hunt.

It is the GOP's right to disagree with the President but it is getting really old when they first block or filibuster everything the President tries to fix the economy and the have the nerve to say the economy is His fault. The fact the right wing deserves as much if not more blame for the economy going bad as the President but when He brings this up the GOP screams "All He does is blame Bush". Well I have news for my right wing friends. GW Bush does deserve plenty of blame and you all know it.

Every time the President tries to take some well deserved credit for His victorys in the war against terror the right wing screams "He is doing a endzone dance" and then try to create a witch hunt for leaking infomation to the press. The fact is many presidents in the past have leaked select infomation to make theselves look good so stop your whining.

Fast and furious has been going on for 12 years in one form or another and do you right wingers really think this is all Holders fault? The fact is those drug dealers would have been armed anyway and officer Terry would have been just as dead either way. I just think you right wingers are just hunting for outrage and are just about bringing this President down with any witch hunt you can create.

The bottom line is enough is enough. We all understand you right wingers hate the President for whatever reason. Us left wingers have disliked plenty of GOP presidents ourselves but this crap is rising to the point of hysteria and is getting out of hand. I think you know you have nominated a stiff and you are trying to make up for it with all this witch hunt BS. Stop it already.
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How has this differed from the past several elections? The idea is to rile people up and get them to react emotionally instead of intelligently. It's a standard practice that has worked, sadly, very well.
 
The American political culture has changed over the last several decades. The net effect of the change in political culture has been to subordinate the common interest and identity to the drive for partisan political advantage. This is one of the reasons America is in steep decline.
 
Albert Di Salvo said:
The American political culture has changed over the last several decades. The net effect of the change in political culture has been to subordinate the common interest and identity to the drive for partisan political advantage. This is one of the reasons America is in steep decline.
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Sadly, I must agree. The removal of intelligence from the system has created a dire state in which the very future of the Republic is at stake.
 
Daktoria said:
:lamo

Tell me that's a joke. You aren't seriously posting Jon Stewart as a reference, are you?
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Hey, you KNOW that to this progressive genius this "ain't no joke" !!!

AdamT is most definitely posting Jon Stewart as a reference.......just as he considers Obami Salami the greatest Economist since the religious attribute the same powers to God. The negro's counterpart to KKK's Grand Wizard, Obummer's stooge Erik "The Consummate Idiot" Holder as the greatest DOJ since the greatest DOJ, and the Piece of Feces, the Race-baiting filth, the other 1/2 of the Heckel&Jeckel team of Jesse "The Extortionist" CRAPson i.e., Al "Tawana Brawley" CRAPton is the greatest RACE-FRIENDLY Ambassor as Louis "The Greatest Jew Lover of All Time" Farrakhan.

Now, AdamT might act coy and deny some, or all, of these accolades but we all know where his heart (?) is.
 
James D Hill said:
Is it just me or is this getting really nasty? It seems like everything the President does is an outrage for the right wing. Every time He tries to take credit for something good He had done or attemted to do the right is up in arms and trying to create a witch hunt.

It is the GOP's right to disagree with the President but it is getting really old when they first block or filibuster everything the President tries to fix the economy and the have the nerve to say the economy is His fault. The fact the right wing deserves as much if not more blame for the economy going bad as the President but when He brings this up the GOP screams "All He does is blame Bush". Well I have news for my right wing friends. GW Bush does deserve plenty of blame and you all know it.

Every time the President tries to take some well deserved credit for His victorys in the war against terror the right wing screams "He is doing a endzone dance" and then try to create a witch hunt for leaking infomation to the press. The fact is many presidents in the past have leaked select infomation to make theselves look good so stop your whining.

Fast and furious has been going on for 12 years in one form or another and do you right wingers really think this is all Holders fault? The fact is those drug dealers would have been armed anyway and officer Terry would have been just as dead either way. I just think you right wingers are just hunting for outrage and are just about bringing this President down with any witch hunt you can create.

The bottom line is enough is enough. We all understand you right wingers hate the President for whatever reason. Us left wingers have disliked plenty of GOP presidents ourselves but this crap is rising to the point of hysteria and is getting out of hand. I think you know you have nominated a stiff and you are trying to make up for it with all this witch hunt BS. Stop it already.
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Hilarious

A list outlining all of Obama's epic failures as president would be bigger than his 2700 page Obamatax bill.

Obama had a super majority, got whatever he wanted, killed the economy, added trillions in debt, added massive new Obamataxes, goes to war in Libya w/o Congressional approval, his Justice Department oversees an operation where they allow guns to walk w/o tracking them where hundreds of people are killed including a Border Patrol Agent (Brian Terry), ect ect ect and this is all the far left has? More blaming Bush and claiming the "Right Wing is getting nasty".

This is after 8 years of basically claiming Bush was Hitler. We were all told by the left that "Bush knocked down the towers" and "Didn't like Black People". You remember those movies fantasizing about assassinating/murdering Bush while he was in office that came from the left? I sure don't. You have a lot of gall trying to claim that legitimate criticism of Obama's failed policies are "nasty" after the mob-like childish emotional garbage we had to listen to for 8 years while Bush was president from the left.
 
The only tactic left for the Conservatives is FEAR. They cannot run on their records, as history has shown that trickle-down economics does not work. They can't run on foreign policy because Obama had America's biggest threat shot in the eye and his organization crippled and hiding from drone.

All they can run on is "Obama's gonna ruin America! You can't vote for him because the government is worthless and out to take all of your money!! So vote for me!"
 
Albert Di Salvo said:
I think the liberals can conquer America, but they can't conquer the forces of history. The forces and processes of history lined up by accident for America. Now those same forces and processes have moved on from America.

Political and economic power are hemorrhaging from America. Every one on earth realizes this except Americans. Why is this so difficult to perceive?

The change in power dynamics world wide disempowers America and the American people. It's happened to the Spanish, the Portuguese, the Dutch, the British, the Austrians, and others. Now it is happening to the Americans.

The Blue Model of Society is being destroyed from overseas and the rise of other powers. The Blue Model is running out of money. Does any one deny this?

The problem for Democrats and liberals is not Republicans and conservatives. I speak the truth and people seem to resent it. The problem is that there is no escaping the truth. Go to British, Canadian and Australian forums and see what is being said. Shrugs.
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Walter Russel Mead has been on the wrong side of historical analysis for too long, yet some still drink up what he pours.

The breakdown of US industry is not due to liberal actions, it has been due to corporate interests in allowing the the US market to become open to any and all "foreign" manufactures, particularly those "US" corporations that setup factories in Asia. We saw it with radios and TV's, steel, optics and IC's. We didn't refine our industries, to make more precise products, we allowed our low value production to not improve and it simply withered away. Germany and Japan kept some hold on their corporations by tariffs on imports but also by improving the workforce and the means of production. Of course, they had an industrial policy, we didn't. We kept to the idea that corporations knew best and did not raise our own status and standards. We became complacent in our dominance after WWII and did not keep pushing on in the 70's and 80's. Now much of the world has nearly caught up or surpassed us. We still have the basics of the best ideas in the world, but so many who want to hold on to traditional ways, particularly rw conservatives, still will not move forward with the rest of us.

Mead is wrong in thinking that it is liberalism that is in dire need of change, since they have always been the ones pushing the envelope. It is conservatives who are always looking backwards while trying to walk forward that are holding the rest of us up, their foot dragging and stumbling is a hindrance for the rest of us.
 
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iguanaman said:
I knew it.....your 10 years old!!!!!
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Sorry, I'm 54. At least I'm old enough to have to pay much for any of Obama's screw ups it's the next generations that will be pizzing on his grave.
 
Tettsuo said:
The only tactic left for the Conservatives is FEAR. They cannot run on their records, as history has shown that trickle-down economics does not work. They can't run on foreign policy because Obama had America's biggest threat shot in the eye and his organization crippled and hiding from drone.

All they can run on is "Obama's gonna ruin America! You can't vote for him because the government is worthless and out to take all of your money!! So vote for me!"
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Great point.I could not have said it any better.The conservatives love afair with the rich is getting sickening.The Bush years let the rich run amok and gave then sweet tax breaks to boot.How did they thank us for those years of supply side econimics?They sent millions of good jobs overseas,made record profits and now are sitting on their wealth.If us liberals even think about punishing them for these un-American acts the right will come out swinging and say we engaging in class warfare while they are trying to cut entitlements that are needed because of what the rich have done to everyday Americans.
 
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