• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Candidates Need to Come Clean on Afghanistan

PW4000

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 22, 2011
Messages
1,025
Reaction score
319
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
The biggest Foreign Policy blunder in American history, needs a final solution. Will Obama, or Romney, provide that solution?


The fact of the matter is that both of these wars are illegal and they were initiated on the basis of a near insane foreign policy dictate that to this day, has no defense and is in fact holistically immoral to the core. There was never any justification for invading either Iraq, or Afghanistan, as there has never been show of proof that anyone from Iraq, or Afghanistan, had actually attacked the United States of America.

If the government had taken what it told the American People was proof that we had been attacked by 18 terrorists, it would not have even been able to get a Grand Jury to move the case forward. That's how weak the government's initial case was before the invasion of Iraq. Even if the government took the NIST and the 911 Commission Report, bundled them together into a Harry Potter sized novel, it still would not have contained the components of a crime, sufficient to charge anyone with murder on any level. The circumstantial evidence that lead to the invasion of Iraq, was shady at best and non-existent in most other cases. There was no causal link through a chain of evidence that would tie anyone in specific to any criminal act involving 911.

There was no precedent set by the United States for its invasion of Afghanistan, and there certainly was no precedent for the shameful invasion of Iraq.

Bush/Cheney, should have never launched these campaigns. At a minimum, Bush 43, should be charged, tried and prosecuted at the Hauge, for War Crimes. Exactly like the United States Economy, Obama/Biden, were handed two very large problems containing too much momentum to simply stop on a dime. Though combat ops had been stopped in Iraq, by Obama/Biden, they continued tactical ops in Afghanistan and extended those ops into nearby Pakistan.

The issue with Afghanistan, is a complex - but it is not impossible to understand. Not because Obama/Biden, took over a failed operation left over by an Administration who simply forgot about the war it started, but because of the history the United States has had with respect to Afghanistan, going back to the Soviet's Red Army invasion in the 1980's. The United States, decided that it would get back at the Soviets for their involvement in Vietnam, by aiding, training and arming Afghanistan, to repel the Red Army.

As early as 1979, the Carter Administration, that helped to launch the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, as Carter's former National Security Advisor, Zbigniew Brzezinski, ultimately revealed that Carter had signed a directive that was not known to the general public in the U.S., that would allow the CIA to assist those in Kabul, who saw Soviet involvement in Afghanistan as favorable. In the mid-1980's the CIA, in its search for someone who could help to rally support in Afghanistan, for increased Saudi presence, virtually hand-picked Mr. Osama bin Laden, given his alleged likeability and the fact that he came from a family that had already been involved in the financial support of Afghanistan's resistance.

Both al Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan, were a direct result of CIA involvement with Osama bin Laden, and his influence among Saudis and the Egyptians that coordinated to handle the Soviet invasion. So, all of the talk about the Taliban, not having a presence in Afghanistan, until after President Obama, took office, is simply not factual and without merit. Osama bin Laden, had been gathering many of his fighters from the Muslim Brotherhood. During the battle with the Soviets in Afghanistan, those who were closely connected to the Muslim Brotherhood, became what we know today as al Qaeda, while the Taliban, sprang up as an Afghan Fundamentalist organization with grass roots establishment.

We promised the Afghan People, to stick around and help rebuild their country, but we never stayed long enough to accomplish that mission. We bailed out of Afghanistan post-war, and Afghanistan turned a hotbed for terrorists training. The CIA bases that they used to train the resistance to fight against the Soviets, became both al Qaeda and Taliban terrorist training camps. We left a destabilized Afghanistan in the wake of war, a poor economy, and precious little superstructure upon which to build and establish a framework of government that would be able to run the affairs of the country.

After the Red Army left Afghanistan in defeat, and after the Soviet Union finally fell in 1991, in return for aiding and assisting Afghanistan during the war, the United States (through California based UNOCAL), thought it had a golden opportunity to finally get its collective hands on Caspian Sea oil. What a lot of people here in the United States don't understand is that the Caspian Sea shelf is thought to be the largest source of crude in the world, outside the Persian Gulf itself. The major problem for the United States in the past had always been the Soviet Union's control of the region.

With the collapse of the former USSR, two major Caspian Sea oil producing nations were born, Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan. Both are set north of Afghanistan, and would require that a Southern pipeline be constructed through Afghanistan, to make delivery to California based UNOCAL possible. The biggest obstacle in the past to obtaining stable outside investment for building such a pipeline, has always been that stability of the delivery mechanism - the pipeline itself. Without the ability to secure the line physically from attack, no one wanted to fork-up the working capital necessary to develop the project. It is estimated that somewhere between 200 to 270 billion barrels of oil would be considered peak capacity for the Caspian Sea shelf.

It is very interesting to note at this juncture, that Paul Wolfowitz, did not draft his first copy of the Defense Planning Guidance, until after the fall of the Soviet Union, the creation of both Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan, and the exposure of the Caspian Sea shelf. Wolfowitz, Defense Planning Guidance, was the hard-core version of what ultimately became the Project for The New American Century. Nevertheless, both documents (among many other things) essentially called for the replacement of the long standing Policy of Containment (with respect to the Soviet Union, primarily) with what would later become known as the Bush Doctrine, or the Policy of Preemption.

So, with the Soviet Union becoming the Russian Federation, all of a sudden U.S. Policy makers in power decided that it was time to use the United States Military, as a tool for carrying out imperialistic policies that called for the establishment of the United States as the "preeminent and unchallenged global super power," which was spelled out in both the Defense Planning Guidance and Project for The New American Century, as requiring the United States to gain positive control over a sufficient amount of the world's natural resources -and- the continued regression of any State that sponsored terrorism.

When you put those three (3) things together in their proper sequence: Collapse of the Soviet Union; Opening of the Caspian Sea shelf and Changing from Containment to Preemption; you get the slippery slope that inevitably leads to lies about National Intelligence, Aluminum Tubes, Anthrax, Botulinum Toxin, Sarin and Nuclear Weapons Programs in Iraq. You get crash sites at the Pentagon and Shanksville, PA., that do not contain crash site signatures matching either a Boeing 757, or a Boeing 767. You get 1,368 ft tall buildings in the middle of Manhattan, New York, imploding on themselves into a near perfect linear vertical free fall. You get a jet engine found at Church and Murray Streets, some three (3) blocks away from WTC1 and WTC2, that does not match either the JT9D, or the CF-6, which is what UA175 would have flown with. You get no WMD found in Iraq, and no human remains found in Pennsylvania, by first responders. You get no official investigation by the NTSB and the FBI/Pentagon acting as the NTSB. You get everything that should be up as down, and everything that should be left as right. What's inside becomes what's outside and what should be black and white, turns to cloudy gray.

Basically, if you are an American Citizen, you get hosed down with lies, shadows, slight of hand and years of emotional trauma to work you way through. Unfortunately, the vast majority of Americans have not yet worked their way to clarity on why and how our Foreign Policy with respect to oil producing nations, has been so corrupt ever since the 1953 Iranian coupe de'tat. All the while, since 1953, the United States Government has been lying to the American People about what its true intentions have been in the region.

Our government has always told us that its primary concern was making sure that we had an ally in the region who could essentially put a check on Iran. That was a bald face lie then, and it is a bald face lie right now. The United States of America is not fearful of Iran. What we wanted then is what we want right now, access to Caspian Sea Shelf oil, and either direct, or indirect control over Iraq's oil production.

We have been an enormous destabilizing force in the Middle East - all of it due to oil. We have failed on every imaginable level with respect to building credibility among the Middle Eastern People - all of it due to oil. We have been directly responsible for the death of innocent men, women and children in the Middle East - all of it due to oil. Over 7,000+ (known) U.S. Troops dead in the Middle East - all of it due to oil. U.S. Military basis sprawled all over the Middle East - all of it due to oil.

At this stage, I don't see the need to continue our military presence in Afghanistan and I urge the President to end all ops immediately. At this point, we've created such an intolerable degree of animosity between our troops and the People of Afghanistan, that the only way to repair the damage is to remove all combat troops immediately and engage in as much diplomacy as humanly possible to show good will on the part of the United States. The rank insubordination by a few American Soldiers, has caused significant set-backs to any accomplishments made by the current Administration. The only thing the United States should be engaged in right now with respect to the Afghan government, is whatever financial aid is reasonable, plus the final stage (the end) training of the Afghan Security Forces, so that they can defend themselves as best they can under the circumstances.

Let's be amazingly clear about one fact: The reason we have terrorists in Afghanistan today, is directly linked to our abandonment of Afghanistan, after the Soviets left the region, and our failure to follow through on our original promise to help get the Afghan government on its own two feet, so that it can handle its internal problems on its own. When we abandoned our promise on the ground in Afghanistan, back in the late 80's, we put our finger in the face of the Muslim Brotherhood, that we trained (by the way) and where we hand-picked their leader in Osama bin Laden. Doing so, created a vacuum in leadership which sucked any hope of that country developing on its own.

Why we continue making the same exact mistakes in Afghanistan, time after time, can only be answered by our multi-decade attempts at getting control over Caspian Sea oil. Every single President since Jimmy Carter, in 1979, has been involved one way or another, in perpetuating this problem - right up through today's date. There are no clean hands on either side of the political isle when it comes to Afghanistan. It is by FAR our biggest Foreign Policy blunder and one that we never seem to get right.

It is well past time for this failed policy on Afghanistan to simply come to an end.
 
The biggest Foreign Policy blunder in American history, needs a final solution. Will Obama, or Romney, provide that solution?


The fact of the matter is that both of these wars are illegal and they were initiated on the basis of a near insane foreign policy dictate that to this day, has no defense and is in fact holistically immoral to the core. There was never any justification for invading either Iraq, or Afghanistan, as there has never been.................................................................QUOTE]

Sorry to cut some of your post out. I didn't want my response to take up the entire page.

While I agree with you that we should leave Afghanistan, we had a very good reason to go into Afghanistan. Any theory about why they attacked us ie we left them out to dry, etc is exactly that, a theory. Islamists started hating "infidels" a long time prior to us involving ourselve in Afghanistan during the 80's. I wonder what people like you think we should have done in retaliation to the attacks on 9/11. I think our response was superb. The occupation after the inital response was the mistake. What would you have done?
 
The fact of the matter is that both of these wars are illegal and they were initiated on the basis of a near insane foreign policy dictate that to this day, has no defense and is in fact holistically immoral to the core. There was never any justification for invading either Iraq, or Afghanistan, as there has never been show of proof that anyone from Iraq, or Afghanistan, had actually attacked the United States of America.

PW4000, you begin your screed with the words: "The fact of the matter...". You then end your first paragraph with the highlighted statement which is factually incorrect. For this inconsistency, I will forgo any comment on the rest of your post...except to answer your initial question:

Bush provided the solution...Obama is following his plan...I presume Romney will also.
 
PW4000, you begin your screed with the words: "The fact of the matter...". You then end your first paragraph with the highlighted statement which is factually incorrect. For this inconsistency, I will forgo any comment on the rest of your post...except to answer your initial question:

Bush provided the solution...Obama is following his plan...I presume Romney will also.

Solution? Solution to what? The solution was the initial actions in Afghanistan. The following actions were all mistakes. We should have left Afghanistan 4 months after we got there, continued to hunt Osama covertly, and moved on with our lives. As it is, we are fighting a useless war for a people that don't even want us there. Trust me, I've deployed to both countries. Iraqis wanted us there much more than Afghani's did. We still shouldn't have been there. Afghanis want nothing to do with us. They know we're leaving, they know we won't stay the 20 years required to pacify the Taliban, so they are simply waiting us out and trying not to offend the local Taliban.
 
Solution? Solution to what? The solution was the initial actions in Afghanistan. The following actions were all mistakes. We should have left Afghanistan 4 months after we got there, continued to hunt Osama covertly, and moved on with our lives. As it is, we are fighting a useless war for a people that don't even want us there. Trust me, I've deployed to both countries. Iraqis wanted us there much more than Afghani's did. We still shouldn't have been there. Afghanis want nothing to do with us. They know we're leaving, they know we won't stay the 20 years required to pacify the Taliban, so they are simply waiting us out and trying not to offend the local Taliban.

I think your right..the afghani are scared to death...they know as soon as we leave the taliban take back over...and Kharzai is even more scared...he wont last a day when we leave if he piss' the taliban off....thats why hes been coming out publically the way he has lately.
 
Solution? Solution to what? The solution was the initial actions in Afghanistan. The following actions were all mistakes. We should have left Afghanistan 4 months after we got there, continued to hunt Osama covertly, and moved on with our lives. As it is, we are fighting a useless war for a people that don't even want us there. Trust me, I've deployed to both countries. Iraqis wanted us there much more than Afghani's did. We still shouldn't have been there. Afghanis want nothing to do with us. They know we're leaving, they know we won't stay the 20 years required to pacify the Taliban, so they are simply waiting us out and trying not to offend the local Taliban.

Regardless the conditions, the course was set...Obama is continuing the course...and, I suppose, Romney will continue it as well.

Besides your personal opinions, do YOU have an answer to the OP's question?

Will Obama, or Romney, provide that solution?
 
Besides your personal opinions, do YOU have an answer to the OP's question?

Actually, I do.
1) I think the OP is dead wrong about the proof needed to invade Afghanistan. OBL sent videos out admitting to being the orchestrator of the attack. What more do we need?
2) Again, concerning the OP, Muslims have hated the West a loooooong time prior to our dealings in Afghanistan in the 80's. Stop watching "Charlie Wilson's War" and come into reality. Muslims have hated the West/infidels ever since the Crusades.
3) No, I do not think Obama or Romney will provide the solution. Obama will follow through with the 2014 withdrawal from Afghanistan but he will continue to pour money, time, and "advisors" in there long after ground forces leave. I believe Romney will eliminate the 2014 withdrawal all together and we'll be stuck there for years to come. Even if he does stick to the 2014 withdrawal, he would still leave even more "advisors" in the country than Obama would.
So, in the realm of Afghanistan, Obama (shockingly) would be the better choice.
 
Biggest foreign policy blunder ever? Afghanistan doesn't come close.
 
Actually, I do.
1) I think the OP is dead wrong about the proof needed to invade Afghanistan. OBL sent videos out admitting to being the orchestrator of the attack. What more do we need?
2) Again, concerning the OP, Muslims have hated the West a loooooong time prior to our dealings in Afghanistan in the 80's. Stop watching "Charlie Wilson's War" and come into reality. Muslims have hated the West/infidels ever since the Crusades.
3) No, I do not think Obama or Romney will provide the solution. Obama will follow through with the 2014 withdrawal from Afghanistan but he will continue to pour money, time, and "advisors" in there long after ground forces leave. I believe Romney will eliminate the 2014 withdrawal all together and we'll be stuck there for years to come. Even if he does stick to the 2014 withdrawal, he would still leave even more "advisors" in the country than Obama would.
So, in the realm of Afghanistan, Obama (shockingly) would be the better choice.

Hmmm...

Could you provide some reasoning for your beliefs about Romney? Frankly, I haven't heard him say anything that would indicate your viewpoint is accurate.
 
Hmmm...

Could you provide some reasoning for your beliefs about Romney? Frankly, I haven't heard him say anything that would indicate your viewpoint is accurate.
These are statements from the debates. The situation on the ground is never going to be enough in that country. We are years from Afghan forces taking over. The people want no part of us because they've seen this show before (Russia). And our continued policy of allowing poppy to be grown and collected by the Taliban ensures them unlimited funding for years to come.
ROMNEY: Let me -- let me continue. That is I think we've learned some important lessons in our experience in Afghanistan. I want those troops to come home based upon not politics, not based upon economics, but instead based upon the conditions on the ground determined by the generals
And those generals recommended to President Obama that we should not start drawing our troops down until after the fighting season in 2012. He took a political decision to draw them down faster than that. That is wrong. We should follow the recommendation of the generals and we should now look for the people of Afghanistan to pick up their fight and preserve that liberty that has been so dearly won
But he said, "No, I'm gonna get 'em out early." I think that was a mistake. Our surge troops should have been withdrawn by December of next year, not by DecemberMitt Romney - The War in Afghanistan
In an e-mail last week, a Romney aide said removing troops would still be conditional. “Withdrawal of U.S. forces from Afghanistan under a Romney administration will be based on conditions on the ground as assessed by our military commanders,” the aide said. “Pending full review of conditions on the ground, Governor Romney would abide by the 2014 target for transitioning combat operations recommended by the military commanders.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/18/u...fghan-war-now-more-likely.html?pagewanted=all
 
Back
Top Bottom