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What if Ron Paul had his way?

his bias is pretty obvious. We subsidize their defense greatly, we pump millions into their economy indirectly with our troops stations there, and we have given massive amounts of aid to the country.

his username is ironic too me though. Like most nations we do this for, we don't do it for free. We use this as extortion money to ensure they do exactly what we want them to do in agencies like the U.N. or in how they open dialogue with other nations.

Essentially, South Korea is our bitch, many South Koreans have enough pride to see this fact and want the relationship to change dramatically.

And how's that working out for them? With rising industrial giants like Samsung, Hyundai, Kia, etc., you wonder who is who's bitch.
 
houses presumably never lose value either.

your house of cards have been exposed before, they will be exposed again.

Cool, so in your perfect world, you would just save up your cash for retirement and hide it in a perfectly safe place?

Have fun losing all of the benefits of the modern economy and living much worse than you otherwise would. Overall, yes, houses will gain value in the long long term, just as the stock market will. For the stock market, this is virtually guaranteed by technological progress (pushes up GDP at a fairly constant rate with hills and valleys here and there).

Ron Paul wants to bring the US back to the dawn of the 20th Century. Screw that. I like the way the world works today, and once the economy gets better (which it will eventually, regardless of the president), no one will pay attention to some of these very unfounded, very dangerous ideas. For the majority of people, the last few years have been bearable, and we are now past the worst of, mostly due to the efforts of the Fed and central banks around the world.

That is not an endorsement of Obama. I do not think he has done a particularly good job. However, I do not think any president has as big of an effect on the economy as people credit them with. Presidents who hold office during a strongly-growing economy will be seen as good presidents and vice versa, regardless of their actual actions.
 
Half of his policies would be shot down, resulting is us being left with a principally good foreign-policy.
Not much Else.
 
Cool, so in your perfect world, you would just save up your cash for retirement and hide it in a perfectly safe place?

Are you 12 or something? In my world, I would still invest capital,

Ron Paul wants to bring the US back to the dawn of the 20th Century. Screw that. I like the way the world works today, and once the economy gets better (which it will eventually, regardless of the president), no one will pay attention to some of these very unfounded, very dangerous ideas. For the majority of people, the last few years have been bearable, and we are now past the worst of, mostly due to the efforts of the Fed and central banks around the world.

You love living in a nation that borrows from future generations, over consumes and over pollutes. I get it. You are living large. My moral compass doesn’t like it, yours does.
 
Half of his policies would be shot down, resulting is us being left with a principally good foreign-policy.
Not much Else.

this is a hypothetical discussion of the country agreeing with his vision.
 
And how's that working out for them? With rising industrial giants like Samsung, Hyundai, Kia, etc., you wonder who is who's bitch.

This makes no sense to me. In the context of our discussion, huge corporations making money hand over fist means what exactly? Do you have a point at all?
 
based on some of the things you have said in this thread, I don't think you really know what you are talking about

LOL ok man.

this is a perfect example. the Fed isn't propping up failed banks. The FDIC insured depositers, but the bank still goes bottom up

Just watch the movie I linked for you. That will explain to you how the whole system works. You seem rather lost.

FDIC is "insurance" for depositors. The central bank is the lender of last resort for the bank.
 
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Just watch the movie I linked for you. That will explain to you how the whole system works. You seem rather lost.

You claimed fractional reserve lending would go away, I pointed out we used it long before we created the fed.

You said, but how will we stop banks from failing, and I produced a huge list of banks that failed in the last few years

You are out of your element pretending to be something you are not, namely educated on this issue.
 
You claimed fractional reserve lending would go away, I pointed out we used it long before we created the fed.

You said, but how will we stop banks from failing, and I produced a huge list of banks that failed in the last few years

You are out of your element pretending to be something you are not, namely educated on this issue.

No, I think you are the one who is uneducated on the issue... and now you are being rude on top of that!

What I said was that if you were to "end the fed," you would have to end fractional reserve banking. Without the lender of last resort, banks would be vulnerable to bank runs and would no longer be solvent.

You confused depositors with banks, and mentioned the FDIC.

I never said that banks don't fail today. But the picture would be dramatically different without a central bank.

Go read up on the history of the Great Depression. In that case, the Fed decided not to play the role of the lender of last resort. What you ended up with was a domino effect of bank failures due to people running on the bank. That is what happens without an acting central bank.

Had the Fed acted, the Great Depression would never have been.

Do you somewhat understand now?
 
No, I think you are the one who is uneducated on the issue... and now you are being rude on top of that!

What I said was that if you were to "end the fed," you would have to end fractional reserve banking. Without the lender of last resort, banks would be vulnerable to bank runs and would no longer be solvent.

And I explained your fear is silly. If the only way to prevent a bank run is to erode the currency, then you are actually saying that fractual reserve banking is insolvent.

Fortunately, this isn’t so. We can still put into place protections to help ease fears of bank runs

Go read up on the history of the Great Depression. In that case, the Fed decided not to play the role of the lender of last resort.

The fed has admitted to making a huge mistake, they constricted the supply of money which was the most disastrous thing they could of done. Doing nothing would have been better than doing what they actually did do.

So the FED failed to help in anyway. This helps your argument how exactly?
 
You confused depositors with banks, and mentioned the FDIC.

I never said that banks don't fail today. But the picture would be dramatically different without a central bank.

I have no idea what you are trying to claim.

I don’t think you really get how the Fed actually is able to stave off bank runs.

This isn’t magic here. The FED doesn’t create wealth, they dilute it.

Expanding the money supply is an easy and stealthy way of meeting the demands, but they could just go steal the money from everyone directly to achieve the same result. The benefit of the latter is I know exactly how much of my wealth they take.

Taking money from me by inflation reduces the total net goods I can buy with my capital, just as taking it directly out of my wallet reduces the net total of goods I can buy

Once you understand this concept, you will see that the FED isn’t able to do anything we couldn’t do without them in regards to bank runs.
 
And I explained your fear is silly. If the only way to prevent a bank run is to erode the currency, then you are actually saying that fractual reserve banking is insolvent.

Fortunately, this isn’t so. We can still put into place protections to help ease fears of bank runs



The fed has admitted to making a huge mistake, they constricted the supply of money which was the most disastrous thing they could of done. Doing nothing would have been better than doing what they actually did do.

So the FED failed to help in anyway. This helps your argument how exactly?


The Fed doesn't need to erode currency at all to do what it does. It really is not that difficult to understand. They give very short term loans to banks to prevent liquidity crises and then when these loans are paid back (which they are), the money is taken out of circulation. Thus, the net effect is almost zero. Also, the Fed and other central banks tend to try and sterilize their actions, meaning if they buy foreign currency, they will do an equal and opposite action domestically to cancel out the effect on the money supply. The Fed is not some super sinister group of villains working to promote some global agenda. They just don't want the system to collapse.
 
The Fed doesn't need to erode currency at all to do what it does. It really is not that difficult to understand. They give very short term loans to banks to prevent liquidity crises and then when these loans are paid back (which they are), the money is taken out of circulation. Thus, the net effect is almost zero. Also, the Fed and other central banks tend to try and sterilize their actions, meaning if they buy foreign currency, they will do an equal and opposite action domestically to cancel out the effect on the money supply. The Fed is not some super sinister group of villains working to promote some global agenda. They just don't want the system to collapse.

You are debating the wrong person.

We are talking specifically about bank failures. When a bank fails, the failed bank does not get short term loans to prevent liquidity crisis (unless they are super tight with the cronies like Geitner and company)

Peter insists the Fed’s ability to print money is the only way we can prevent bank runs, which means the only way to allow for fractional reserve banking is to admit it doesn’t work and we have to erode currency to make it work.

Please try harder to follow along with the exchange if you want to jump in.
 
You left off eliminate the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Act, amending the Constitution to declare "Life Begins at Conception, and shutting down the FDA, EPA, OSHA, USDA. For starters.
For one, he's against Roe v. Wade and would leave abortion to the states. So no, he wouldn't. And do you know how the amendment process works? The president doesn't have a constitutional role in it.
 
I want to ask a hypothetical question... what if Ron Paul's wish came true... what would the world look like?


More specifically...

- What would be the consequence of "ending the Fed," and returning to a gold standard?

Everyone in Congress would vote against it

- What would be the consequence of withdrawing foreign troops, shutting down foreign bases, and taking a non-interventionist global strategy?

Everyone in Congress would vote against it

- What if we really did cut a trillion dollars from the federal budget, as Paul proposes?

Everyone in Congress would vote against it.


Look at the silly monkey

 
Everyone in Congress would vote against it

then Ron Paul wouldn't get his way making your reply completely idiotic as it pertains to the question in this thread.
 
The question really relies on the fiction that Ron Paul would get "his way". The reality, and I doubt Libertarian children will agree, is that once a person becomes president they have about a dozen staffers ready with binders on foreign policy, domestic issues, etc. They explain to the president "Sir, this is what we can do, this is what we can't". The president nods, and the realizes the disconnect between campaign promises and the real world.
 
What if Ron Paul had his way?



ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !



60 likes
0 dislikes

I've never seen a youtube vote like that, lol!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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- What would be the consequence of "ending the Fed," and returning to a gold standard?
I can see that a lot of people here seem to have a misunderstanding of what the Fed is and actually does. The Federal Reserve is the most secret and powerful agency in the government. They are responsible to no one, and have zero oversight. They are not allowed to be audited, and can create chunks of money to be given out to anyone that they please. The only "oversight" is the periodic testimony of Bernanke, where he only has to answer questions that he wishes to.

I'd like to remind people here that prior to 1913 we had no federal reserve or income tax, and prior to 1973 we were on a gold standard. To suggest that going back to either would make the world implode over night is ridiculous. A central bank like the federal reserve only has one real purpose, to cover the difference between the government's income and expenditures. It's taxation without representation in the clearest of forms.

- What would be the consequence of withdrawing foreign troops, shutting down foreign bases, and taking a non-interventionist global strategy?
We might actually be able to rebuild this once great nation and wouldn't have to worry about terrorism. Terrorism on American shores is a product of decades of imperialism in the middle east. Switzerland seems to be doing just fine.

- What if we really did cut a trillion dollars from the federal budget, as Paul proposes?
Then we might be able to go back to the federal budget from 10 years ago, hardly a disaster. It's not all we'd have to do, but it's a great start.
 
- What would be the consequence of "ending the Fed," and returning to a gold standard?

We would transition to a free banking system. Ron Paul wants to make the Fed weaker and put it out of business. He does not advocate going back to a gold standard. He wants competing currencies, which will either make the dollar stronger or make it obsolete.

- What would be the consequence of withdrawing foreign troops, shutting down foreign bases, and taking a non-interventionist global strategy?
Less conflict. Less terrorism. Unless somebody is outright going to attack us, intervention is not necessary. I don't agree with him 100%, more like 80%.

- What if we really did cut a trillion dollars from the federal budget, as Paul proposes?
Probably an immediate hurt to the economy, but longterm help.
 
Umm, what is with people saying the economy would crash under RP? Generic statements thrown out there do not make any sense. The economy is much more complex.
 
I can see that a lot of people here seem to have a misunderstanding of what the Fed is and actually does. The Federal Reserve is the most secret and powerful agency in the government. They are responsible to no one, and have zero oversight. They are not allowed to be audited, and can create chunks of money to be given out to anyone that they please. The only "oversight" is the periodic testimony of Bernanke, where he only has to answer questions that he wishes to.

The Fed was already audited. Governors are appointed by the Federal government, most importantly the Chairman. It's never been done but if the actions of the chairman got noticeably out of line with reality, the President would be able to revoke his chairmanship. The Fed is more transparent today than it ever has been in it's history. Only in the past few decades has the Fed released meeting minutes; Bernanke is the first chairman to hold a press conference after every FOMC and the Fed has just recently initiated a new communications policy that will increase the Fed's transparency even further. The concept of an apolitical central bank is necessary for it to function correctly. The thought of monetary policy being decided by the idiocy of Congress is terrifying.

I'd like to remind people here that prior to 1913 we had no federal reserve or income tax, and prior to 1973 we were on a gold standard. To suggest that going back to either would make the world implode over night is ridiculous. A central bank like the federal reserve only has one real purpose, to cover the difference between the government's income and expenditures. It's taxation without representation in the clearest of forms.

Right, and look how the world has changed since then. You really think the gold standard prior to 1973 is something we could return to? Please look at the recent M1 aggregates, monetary BASE, currency in circulation, total debt outstanding etc. Even a return to a gold standard at an absurdly low exchange rate would wipe out the possibility for any meaningful credit growth as we would be subject to the quantity of a metal that is mined out of the ground by private mining companies. Regardless, there isn't enough gold in the world to justify the current levels of global currencies. Asset prices would collapse overnight, and the majority of the world that uses the dollar as a reserve currency would see unprecedented currency devaluations. If we returned to a gold standard, the public would be able to offset any attempts by the government to increase currency and credit by giving both back to the government in return for gold. The constant removal of currency from circulation would cause credit to tighten substantially and the general price level of goods and services to fall. The effect would be massive deflation and significantly reduced economic activity.

You also seem to be forgetting this. A gold standard would not remove federal manipulation of currency. The federal government could still, at will, change convertibility rates, manipulate national gold supply, and pass executive orders such as the one linked above.

The Fed's primary purpose is price and interest rate stability. I support monetarism, like the beautiful man in your avatar, and believe we need more hawks on the board of the Fed but Paul's cries for a reversion to commodity-backed currency only speaks to his age and his out-of-date ideas.

We might actually be able to rebuild this once great nation and wouldn't have to worry about terrorism. Terrorism on American shores is a product of decades of imperialism in the middle east. Switzerland seems to be doing just fine.

I generally detest the notion that American "imperialsim" is the cause of terrorism in the United States, but I agree with Paul's idea of reducing militairistic interventionism. However, the United States has a strong national interest in maintaining social stability across the globe by disallowing radical regimes that engage in flagrant human rights abuses and foreign terrorism to form. Comparing the United States to Switzerland in terms of foreign policy shows that you don't believe in American exceptionalism in geopolitical politics. I do.

Then we might be able to go back to the federal budget from 10 years ago, hardly a disaster. It's not all we'd have to do, but it's a great start.

You can't just go 'back to the federal budget from 10 years ago'. You need legal, structural changes to government that Paul would have no control over. I agree that is something we need to do, but Paul is just pandering to conservatives when he says he will cut $1 trillion from the federal budget in one year. If we ever want to meaningful reduce the growth rate in federal spending it will take large majorities to accomplish entitlement reform.
 
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The Fed was already audited. Governors are appointed by the Federal government, most importantly the Chairman. It's never been done but if the actions of the chairman got noticeably out of line with reality, the President would be able to revoke his chairmanship. The Fed is more transparent today than it ever has been in it's history. Only in the past few decades has the Fed released meeting minutes; Bernanke is the first chairman to hold a press conference after every FOMC and the Fed has just recently initiated a new communications policy that will increase the Fed's transparency even further. The concept of an apolitical central bank is necessary for it to function correctly. The thought of monetary policy being decided by the idiocy of Congress is terrifying.
-Yes, it gets "audited" to make sure that it is following regulations, like "That includes everything from bank supervision to consumer issues to payment systems."1
What that audit under the GAO doesn't cover is : "The GAO can’t review most of the Fed’s monetary policy actions or decisions, including discount window lending (direct loans to financial institutions), open-market operations and any other transactions made under the direction of the Federal Open Market Committee. It also can’t look into the Fed’s transactions with foreign governments, foreign central banks and other international financing organizations."1 Which is undoubtedly the meat and potatoes of the Fed's undertakings.

- Why would a president ever revoke a chairman's chairmanship? He does every President such amazing favors. They artificially stimulate the economy especially in election years to provide a false sense of progress.2

- Bernanke's testimonies before the Congressional subcommittee are a joke. He doesn't HAVE to answer a damn thing he doesn't want to. 3

Right, and look how the world has changed since then. You really think the gold standard prior to 1973 is something we could return to? Please look at the recent M1 aggregates, monetary BASE, currency in circulation, total debt outstanding etc. Even a return to a gold standard at an absurdly low exchange rate would wipe out the possibility for any meaningful credit growth as we would be subject to the quantity of a metal that is mined out of the ground by private mining companies. Regardless, there isn't enough gold in the world to justify the current levels of global currencies. Asset prices would collapse overnight, and the majority of the world that uses the dollar as a reserve currency would see unprecedented currency devaluations. If we returned to a gold standard, the public would be able to offset any attempts by the government to increase currency and credit by giving both back to the government in return for gold. The constant removal of currency from circulation would cause credit to tighten substantially and the general price level of goods and services to fall. The effect would be massive deflation and significantly reduced economic activity.

You also seem to be forgetting this. A gold standard would not remove federal manipulation of currency. The federal government could still, at will, change convertibility rates, manipulate national gold supply, and pass executive orders such as the one linked above.

The Fed's primary purpose is price and interest rate stability. I support monetarism, like the beautiful man in your avatar, and believe we need more hawks on the board of the Fed but Paul's cries for a reversion to commodity-backed currency only speaks to his age and his out-of-date ideas.
- That is the exact problem. We've created an unsustainable system that would be extremely difficult to move back to a gold standard, that doesn't mean that it's not the right answer. Right now under a fiat money system, there is absolutely nothing backing this monopoly money that we call the US Dollar. The value of the dollar is whatever the hell they say it is, and they can manipulate it to any degree that they wish. Going back to a gold standard without removing the Federal Reserve would be worthless and would change nothing. Both actions along with others must be undertaken, and yes it will be very painful, but much better for all of us in the end.

- I love when people cry about the horrible dangers of deflation. Yes, that would be so awful if the value of our savings suddenly became worth a damn. I am well aware of the short term economic consequences of deflation, but you must remember that the dollar has lost 93% of it's value since 1913. A penny used to be worth something, now it's a nuisance. We'd hardly suffer if our purchasing power suddenly adjusted to counteract it's inflated value.

- Just because it's the Fed's "purpose" to promote price and interest rate stability, doesn't mean they're doing it.

- About Executive Order 6102... Don't even get me started on that bastard FDR. Just because one of our presidents managed to literally rob Americans blind doesn't mean that gold is a bad idea. I mean, it's genious, diabolical even, making it illegal to own gold buillion, with a harsh punishment of 10 years in prison and or 10k in fines, then buy all the gold from the American public at $20/ounce, just to turn around and peg it at $35/ounce. He in my opinion is the worst president in American history, but my reasons for that could fill an entire thread.

I generally detest the notion that American "imperialsim" is the cause of terrorism in the United States, but I agree with Paul's idea of reducing militairistic interventionism. However, the United States has a strong national interest in maintaining social stability across the globe by disallowing radical regimes that engage in flagrant human rights abuses and foreign terrorism to form. Comparing the United States to Switzerland in terms of foreign policy shows that you don't believe in American exceptionalism in geopolitical politics. I do.
- I think history speaks for itself. We have a vicious cycle of propping regimes up in the middle east just to come back a decade or two later to fight them. It's always "bringing democracy and peace" to the middle east, when it's little more than simple imperialism. Look at Iran, we have bases in 11 nearby countries surrounding them.4 Are they assholes? Absolutely. But do they have a reason to be worried? Absolutely. All of this while our own society rots away.

- I personally with my own eyes have seen how wasteful we are in Afghanistan, and how un-winnable a war in Afghanistan is. The Taliban simply want us out of their country, and to be honest, we'd want the same. (though they're still assholes)

- American exceptionalism? Ha, no, you're right, I don't think that we're so damn superior to every country or that we have the God given task to police the entire world. It's absolutely ludacris and we are really paying for it.



You can't just go 'back to the federal budget from 10 years ago'. You need legal, structural changes to government that Paul would have no control over. I agree that is something we need to do, but Paul is just pandering to conservatives when he says he will cut $1 trillion from the federal budget in one year. If we ever want to meaningful reduce the growth rate in federal spending it will take large majorities to accomplish entitlement reform.
- I agree that Ron Paul may be overplaying the power that the US president would actually have with such intentions, but it nevertheless is a step in the right direction. And yes, we can just go back to the budget of 10 years ago, but some people are going to have to lose their precious governmental programs. Boo hoo.

Sources:
1. What Would a Federal Reserve Audit Show? - Real Time Economics - WSJ
2. http://www.cfainstitute.org/learnin...s/robert_johnson_presidential_term_sample.pdf
3. Bernanke says no to where the money went - YouTube
4. http://static7.businessinsider.com/image/4ee6562eecad04150d00003f/us-bases.jpg (We have bases in the red countries)
 
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We would have World War III under Paul. Social programs and the fed would be reduced to too small of a level and all hope for progress would be halted for the next 4-8 years.
 
We would have World War III under Paul. Social programs and the fed would be reduced to too small of a level and all hope for progress would be halted for the next 4-8 years.

So you associate war with Ron Paul, and hope and progress with social programs and the Fed? Interesting...
 
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