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this is not by the people for the people.

ewm90

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Please read this link to understand this topic Salon.com Buddy Roemer
How can this happen? how did we get here?

This go's against very thing we stand for. If I was a republican I would boycott this election.

Integrity is a absolute thing. Ether you have
integrity fully or its going out every where. When there is smoke there is fire when it comes to Integrity.

If this was the democratic party I would be mad maybe even out there protesting, even if I did not like the candidate because trust is every thing. Trust is earned not just given.

--

I understand there are strick regulations for how can and cant be at a debate.

You must be grosly rich.

You must you must have a tuns of money coming in from out side interests.


 
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Approximately half of all members of Congress are already millionaires - the top 1% is overrepresented!
 
I'm a big time liberal but Roemer is a Republican I could very well vote for. I like the man. Too bad he isn't in the debates.
 
Give'em hell, Buddy. I'm about as liberal as they come, but I'd give serious consideration to voting for him on this issue alone. It's a travesty that he has been excluded from every debate.
 
You must be grosly rich.

You must you must have a tuns of money coming in from out side interests

You must have some level of actual public awareness and support.

Otherwise every ****ing yahoo in the world could say "YOU HAVE TO PUT ME IN THE DEBATE" and we do a disservice to the American people where we end up having a 2 hour debate where you hear 30 differently people talk for 3 minutes each.
 
You must have some level of actual public awareness and support.

Otherwise every ****ing yahoo in the world could say "YOU HAVE TO PUT ME IN THE DEBATE" and we do a disservice to the American people where we end up having a 2 hour debate where you hear 30 differently people talk for 3 minutes each.

I think the fact that he's a former governor and four-term Congressman boosts him WAY out of the "some yahoo" category. None of the debate-approved candidates can match Roemer's combination of state and national government, plus business experience.

I think most Americans didn't know Rick Santorum from a hole in the wall before the bataan debate march started.
 
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I think the fact that he's a former governor and four-term Congressman boosts him WAY out of the "some yahoo" category.

True, I don't believe Roemer is "some yahoo". However, on his own efforts and grass roots campaigning he can't get enough of a support infastructure to even register as a blip worthy enough to get into the debates. That's on him. Ron Paul is by no means establishment but showed its absolutely possible to get the necessary support through ground roots methods to get entry into the debates.

Lowering the requirements to allow him in, even though HE may not be a yahoo, opens the door to having to let yahoos in to form consistency since the basis for debates typically is percentage of support.

None of the debate-approved candidates can match Roemer's combination of state and national government, plus business experience.

Those aren't he requirements to enter the debate. If experience was a requirement to get into the debates Barack Obama likely wouldn't be our President right now and the Republican field would've been John Huntsman vs Mitt Romney this year.

I think most Americans didn't know Rick Santorum from a hole in the wall before the bataan debate march started.

And yet he had enough polling support in the states the debates were in that he was able to get onto them. Guess who didn't? Buddy Roemer. So he couldn't even get enough support to poll as well a a guy who Americans didn't know "from a hole in the wall". Thanks for proving my point.
 
True, I don't believe Roemer is "some yahoo". However, on his own efforts and grass roots campaigning he can't get enough of a support infastructure to even register as a blip worthy enough to get into the debates. That's on him. Ron Paul is by no means establishment but showed its absolutely possible to get the necessary support through ground roots methods to get entry into the debates.

Lowering the requirements to allow him in, even though HE may not be a yahoo, opens the door to having to let yahoos in to form consistency since the basis for debates typically is percentage of support.



Those aren't he requirements to enter the debate. If experience was a requirement to get into the debates Barack Obama likely wouldn't be our President right now and the Republican field would've been John Huntsman vs Mitt Romney this year.



And yet he had enough polling support in the states the debates were in that he was able to get onto them. Guess who didn't? Buddy Roemer. So he couldn't even get enough support to poll as well a a guy who Americans didn't know "from a hole in the wall". Thanks for proving my point.

I could be wrong, but I think you're putting the cart before the horse. Guys like Santorum, Huntsman, and Cain had negligible polling support before the debates started. Several of them were able to make a run at it *because* they were able to get in the debates and get their message out. Paul is a bit of a special case because he's been running for over a decade. I just don't get how a guy like Cain, who has never won an election in his life, gets in the debates, when a guy like Roemer, who's a former governor and four-term Congressman can't get on the stage even once.
 
I could be wrong, but I think you're putting the cart before the horse. Guys like Santorum, Huntsman, and Cain had negligible polling support before the debates started. Several of them were able to make a run at it *because* they were able to get in the debates and get their message out. Paul is a bit of a special case because he's been running for over a decade. I just don't get how a guy like Cain, who has never won an election in his life, gets in the debates, when a guy like Roemer, who's a former governor and four-term Congressman can't get on the stage even once.

"this is not by the people for the people. "
And that pretty much sums up the argument. The "people" are not allowed for strange organizational or structural reasons to participate. Money talks and everybody else walks. Everybody agrees but we can't seem to fix it. It just gets back to the status quo maintaining the status quo. Relative to much of history, the current world's status quo is not all that bad, so some activities must be OK even if we don't approve. Obams's SOTU reflected possible new directions that got media attention because of Occupy Wall Street. Is that our best shot?
 
I believe the first few debates the rule was you had to be polling at 3% in either New Hampshire or Iowa...which Santorum, Huntsman, and Cain all were. There were some where it was that you had to be polling over 3% in the state itself. I'd note, Huntsman was not able to participate in one in Iowa for just that reason and while he was my #1 pick far and away I fully agreed with that decision. There were others where a private entity invited individuals to attend the debate...in which case they can use whatever metric they'd want.

I don't really buy into nor care about these ridiculous appeals to emotions that get thrown out about "by the people for the people" and other stuff like that. The PEOPLE are largely responsable for the acceptance of the political atmosphere we live in where its far more a popularity race than anything else. Not to mention that the VAST majority of people I've ever seen arguing about this issue tend to be...1) people who aren't even part of the party the primary is aimed at whining about how its done and 2) almost never see the put forth an ALTERNATIVE method but rather just go "My guy should be alowed to debate, its not FAIR!"

What's an alternative system, and how would it honestly be better and have less complaints then we have now? Require government experience to get rid of the Cain type people? You'll have people bitch that there's no constitutional requirement someone has to have been a politician to run. Have executive experience? All your fans of legislative folks would go up in arms. Have "Good" experience? Without a measurable that's an entirely arbitrary and vague condition. Simply being on the ballot in the state? We'd likely see a huge influx of people getting onto the ballot simply for the oppertunity to get on live television.

I'm not necessarily saying that I'm against expanding debates or finding a new format. What I am is saying is unless you're presenting me with a suggestion of HOW it should be changed and WHY it would be an improvement...and those things aren't just based on emotional rhetoric or based on things that are arbitrary definitions like "Fair"...then its not exactly swaying me.

Is the system perfect? Absolutely not. But without any alternative it just seems people want to bitch because the imperfection leaves out THEIR candidate but would be fine with it being imperfect if THEIR guy was in. Tough.
 
I believe the first few debates the rule was you had to be polling at 3% in either New Hampshire or Iowa...which Santorum, Huntsman, and Cain all were. There were some where it was that you had to be polling over 3% in the state itself. I'd note, Huntsman was not able to participate in one in Iowa for just that reason and while he was my #1 pick far and away I fully agreed with that decision. There were others where a private entity invited individuals to attend the debate...in which case they can use whatever metric they'd want.

I don't really buy into nor care about these ridiculous appeals to emotions that get thrown out about "by the people for the people" and other stuff like that. The PEOPLE are largely responsable for the acceptance of the political atmosphere we live in where its far more a popularity race than anything else. Not to mention that the VAST majority of people I've ever seen arguing about this issue tend to be...1) people who aren't even part of the party the primary is aimed at whining about how its done and 2) almost never see the put forth an ALTERNATIVE method but rather just go "My guy should be alowed to debate, its not FAIR!"

What's an alternative system, and how would it honestly be better and have less complaints then we have now? Require government experience to get rid of the Cain type people? You'll have people bitch that there's no constitutional requirement someone has to have been a politician to run. Have executive experience? All your fans of legislative folks would go up in arms. Have "Good" experience? Without a measurable that's an entirely arbitrary and vague condition. Simply being on the ballot in the state? We'd likely see a huge influx of people getting onto the ballot simply for the oppertunity to get on live television.

I'm not necessarily saying that I'm against expanding debates or finding a new format. What I am is saying is unless you're presenting me with a suggestion of HOW it should be changed and WHY it would be an improvement...and those things aren't just based on emotional rhetoric or based on things that are arbitrary definitions like "Fair"...then its not exactly swaying me.

Is the system perfect? Absolutely not. But without any alternative it just seems people want to bitch because the imperfection leaves out THEIR candidate but would be fine with it being imperfect if THEIR guy was in. Tough.

Okay, let's forget about the first debates. You want to talk about New Hampshire? At the time of the New Hampshire debate Roemer was polling ahead of Rick Perry in New Hampshire. Perry was invited to the New Hampshire debate and Roemer was not. Why?
 
"this is not by the people for the people. "
And that pretty much sums up the argument. The "people" are not allowed for strange organizational or structural reasons to participate. Money talks and everybody else walks. Everybody agrees but we can't seem to fix it. It just gets back to the status quo maintaining the status quo. Relative to much of history, the current world's status quo is not all that bad, so some activities must be OK even if we don't approve. Obams's SOTU reflected possible new directions that got media attention because of Occupy Wall Street. Is that our best shot?
There is no campaign less inclusive than the Democrat campaign. Hell you guys can't even get one other candidate in the game. Talk about not by or for the people. :roll:
 
Okay, let's forget about the first debates. You want to talk about New Hampshire? At the time of the New Hampshire debate Roemer was polling ahead of Rick Perry in New Hampshire. Perry was invited to the New Hampshire debate and Roemer was not. Why?

No clue. Link to the poll? I'll happily go research the debate in question and see what their requirements for acceptance was.

-edit-

Okay, looked into it.

The last NH debate was Jan 7

The poll that Roemer surpassed Perry was Jan 9

The Election was Jan 10

I'm looking for more information right now but it seems like the poll where he went in the lead came AFTER the debates

-edit 2-

Looking further into it, it should also be noted...as I ALREADY said previously...some debates in Iowa and NH had the requirement that a candidate had to be polling above 3% in one state or the other. Perry polled over 3% in Iowa, but not in NH. Roemer polled under 3% in both places. So if the debate was one with the "Either or" requirement that could also explain Perry's invitation.

-edit 3-

Found the rules for the debate

In an effort to provide viewers the best opportunity to hear from the candidates, the co-sponsors of the ABC News, Yahoo!, WMUR debate at Saint Anselm College on Jan. 7, 2012 have agreed on a set of criteria for a candidate’s participation. The candidates have been informed of these criteria, which are the same criteria ABC News applied during the 2008 election cycle.

In order for a candidate to meet the standard of eligibility to participate in the debate, they must either:
1) Achieve 5 percent or higher in a poll of likely NH Republican primary voters conducted by UNH Survey Center, Harvard/Saint Anselm NHIOP, or any polling organization on the list below, conducted between Nov. 1, 2011 and Jan. 6, 2012;

- OR -

2) Achieve 5 percent or higher in a primary trial heat of registered Republican voters in any of the national polls designated on the list below, conducted between Nov. 1, 2011 and Jan. 6, 2012;

- OR -

3) Place first, second or third in the Iowa Republican caucuses.

Polling organizations include: ABC News, AP, Bloomberg, CBS, CNN, FOX, Gallup, NBC News, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, and the Washington Post

Link

So people had three ways to get in. Poll over 5% in the state even once, poll over 5% even once nationally, or come in in the top 3 in Iowa.

So Perry qualified because he's rated at 5% on the national polls sometime between Novemeber 1st and Jan 6th. Roemer didn't.

Even if you removed the 5% in the national poll requirement you'd still not have Roemer in the debate because he was only polling at 2% in New Hampshire at his highest.
 
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Well if 3% is the rule why was Ron Pall in the debate?


No clue. Link to the poll? I'll happily go research the debate in question and see what their requirements for acceptance was.

-edit-

Okay, looked into it.

The last NH debate was Jan 7

The poll that Roemer surpassed Perry was Jan 9

The Election was Jan 10

I'm looking for more information right now but it seems like the poll where he went in the lead came AFTER the debates

-edit 2-

Looking further into it, it should also be noted...as I ALREADY said previously...some debates in Iowa and NH had the requirement that a candidate had to be polling above 3% in one state or the other. Perry polled over 3% in Iowa, but not in NH. Roemer polled under 3% in both places. So if the debate was one with the "Either or" requirement that could also explain Perry's invitation.

-edit 3-

Found the rules for the debate



Link

So people had three ways to get in. Poll over 5% in the state even once, poll over 5% even once nationally, or come in in the top 3 in Iowa.

So Perry qualified because he's rated at 5% on the national polls sometime between Novemeber 1st and Jan 6th. Roemer didn't.

Even if you removed the 5% in the national poll requirement you'd still not have Roemer in the debate because he was only polling at 2% in New Hampshire at his highest.
 
Well if 3% is the rule why was Ron Pall in the debate?

Did you read my post? It was plainly listed. I'll help you out. Ron Paul was able to be in the debate because he qualified for at least one of the three requirements. Those requirements, once more, were (paraphrasing):

1. Over 5% in a New Hampshire poll

2. Over 5% in a National Poll

3. Finish top 3 in Iowa

If you qualified for any ONE of those three options, you were in. Ron Paul, by the way, qualified for all three. He polled as high as 21% prior to the debate in NH. He polled as high as 12.8% Nationally prior to the debate. And he finished 3rd in Iowa.

That's why Ron Paul was able to attend that debate.
 
I am dislexic so bare with me. I don't all way read everything correctly.

I see, did He meet all of these requirement for all of the debates?

Menny of the candidates have dipped to one percent or lower at one time yet still in the debates.


I am not as verst in polatics as you seem to be yet, I still think some thing is off with the handling of how's in the debate pervinting roomer from being in debates.

Menny of the " liberal" media dose say he is as qoulifyed as some of the people in the debate and he is not being let in the debates for a resign that is not completely clear.

Now I have a lot of distrust for all "corporate media" what i mean is media owned by a corporation with mission statements that don't have to do with what jernalisom standards. Now having said that they do say some things that they do point to some things are accorit.


Did you read my post? It was plainly listed. I'll help you out. Ron Paul was able to be in the debate because he qualified for at least one of the three requirements. Those requirements, once more, were (paraphrasing):

1. Over 5% in a New Hampshire poll

2. Over 5% in a National Poll

3. Finish top 3 in Iowa

If you qualified for any ONE of those three options, you were in. Ron Paul, by the way, qualified for all three. He polled as high as 21% prior to the debate in NH. He polled as high as 12.8% Nationally prior to the debate. And he finished 3rd in Iowa.

That's why Ron Paul was able to attend that debate.
 
I am dislexic so bare with me. I don't all way read everything correctly.

No problem. I understand on that. My apologies then, I wasn't aware.

I see, did He meet all of these requirement for all of the debates?

Its hard to tell you, in part because different debates have different rules. TYPICALLY, the rules for debates have to do with polling numbers...usually a stable threshold in that state and/or nationally. I forget the specific debate but I know for a fact there was a debate or two in Iowa whose rules stated the person had to have a 3% polling number in NH, Iowa, or nationally because I researched it when Huntsman first got in (he was my big pick). I know for a fact one debate in Iowa required above either 3 or 5% in Iowa alone, because Huntsman wasn't allowed at that one.

I'd need to go back to each and every debate and check the polls before them for each one to tell you for sure what they all were. I just don't have the free time to do that right now. What I can tell you is that by and large, from all the various one off times I've looked, that generalized polling percentage requirement has been the rules.

Menny of the candidates have dipped to one percent or lower at one time yet still in the debates.

Indeed, but many of them are like the New Hampshire one I quoted originally. I paraphrased the second time, but to go more specific....they gave a specific range (The one I quoted was from Nov 1 to the date of the debate invites) that the person needed to have one poll over the required number. Which meant if they were say....at 8% at one point but dropped under 5% they still got an invite because they were over the threshold within the time frame.

Other instances, like Huntsman in Iowa, the rules allowed for the polling numbers in NH to matter as well as those in Iowa.

Buddy Roemer hasn't popped over 3% nationally, if he even has gotten close to that. He hasn't gotten over 3%, let alone 5%, to my knowledge in any of the states that have hosted debates thus far.

I am not as verst in polatics as you seem to be yet, I still think some thing is off with the handling of how's in the debate pervinting roomer from being in debates.

Hobby and educational thing for me...its understandable :) And trust me...I get you. You have a guy you like and you're miffed he's not in the debates. I understand that. The issue is that you have to set down SOME kind of rules to govern who can be in the debates. And however you set the rules its always going to end up leaving someone out that wants to be in on it.

Its a two way street. Yes, you need some kind of media attention to get interest in you up because of name recognition. At the same time though, why should you be able to take time away from people who the majority of the public are interested in simply because you're running? That's why generally most of these things require a small, but noticeable, amount of support FIRST before you then get into the debates. If you can't get a grass roots movement going enough to get even 5% of the support during these things then its arguable that you shouldn't be taking time away from people who the sizable majority of the public is actually interested in learning about and supporting.

Menny of the " liberal" media dose say he is as qoulifyed as some of the people in the debate and he is not being let in the debates for a resign that is not completely clear.

Yes, many liberal commentators like to suggest how the republican should run their primary....typically in regards to candidates that champion a few ideas the left likes or who would criticize the majority of republicans, turning the Republican primary debate into one aimed at attacking Republicans. They speak opinions based on emotional pleas such as "Will of the people" or broad conspiracies, but rarely actually put forth a reasonable, rational argument as to how debate rules should be set up in regards to attendance.
 
No clue. Link to the poll? I'll happily go research the debate in question and see what their requirements for acceptance was.

-edit-

Okay, looked into it.

The last NH debate was Jan 7

The poll that Roemer surpassed Perry was Jan 9

The Election was Jan 10

I'm looking for more information right now but it seems like the poll where he went in the lead came AFTER the debates

-edit 2-

Looking further into it, it should also be noted...as I ALREADY said previously...some debates in Iowa and NH had the requirement that a candidate had to be polling above 3% in one state or the other. Perry polled over 3% in Iowa, but not in NH. Roemer polled under 3% in both places. So if the debate was one with the "Either or" requirement that could also explain Perry's invitation.

-edit 3-

Found the rules for the debate



Link

So people had three ways to get in. Poll over 5% in the state even once, poll over 5% even once nationally, or come in in the top 3 in Iowa.

So Perry qualified because he's rated at 5% on the national polls sometime between Novemeber 1st and Jan 6th. Roemer didn't.

Even if you removed the 5% in the national poll requirement you'd still not have Roemer in the debate because he was only polling at 2% in New Hampshire at his highest.

Thanks for the good reasearch. I didn't realize that the poll Roemer cited came after the fact.

I understand that there has to be some selection process to keep these things manageable. My preference would be give a free pass, at least for the first few rounds, to any former governor or multi-term Congressman or single+ term Senator.

I'm thinking the Dems must have had a different system in '08. Hard to believe that cranky old bastard, Gravel, had any kind of popular support before the debates kicked off (or after). But he was entertaining and a refreshing break from the usual overpolished pols.
 
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