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Colbert's Super PAC Add

Do you support limiting freedom of the press for the same reasons you support limiting freedom of speech? Why not?

I believe the govt has a compelling interest in ensuring free and open debate. I believe the govt should have the power to limit speech whenever it interferes with that.



Big deal, so do I. That's not a limit on the media's right to speech though. Do you support that too?

How far are you going to stretch the limits of the Constitution beyond absurdity?

Again, the courts have ALREADY found that the govt does have a compelling interest in ensuring a free and open debate. I am not stretching anything with that point. The only place where I am changing existing law is when I suggest the govt should not recognize the rights of groups.
 
Again, you claimed

Okay, this has broken down enough. Let's get back on track.

You say the government has a compelling state interest that justifies limiting the speech of groups, right?

So exactly what is that interest and why?
 
I believe the govt has a compelling interest in ensuring free and open debate. I believe the govt should have the power to limit speech whenever it interferes with that.

See, I think that's absolutely insane. But let's go with it for a minute - give me a real world example of how you think that applies to Super PACs, etc. and why.

(Don't forget to tell us how it would apply to the media too, which are groups too, by the way. Oh, and political parties - no speech for those groups either, right?)

Again, the courts have ALREADY found that the govt does have a compelling interest in ensuring a free and open debate. I am not stretching anything with that point.

Yes you are. You're using an incredibly vague justification when any real court rulings were MUCH more specific than that - if they actually said that at all.
 
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To express your opinion about a candidate, even if you spend money to advertise that opinion, is not giving the candidate anything. It's expressing your opinion. If speaking about the candidate helps (or hurts) him, that's fine. That's the POINT, in fact. It's not corrupt to speak your mind about a candidate. It's ridiculous to say that.

True, it's not corrupt to speak your mind about a candidate. However, the hope is that the one spouting the commentary is, in fact, speaking the truth. The problem here is the information disseminated by the PACs and SuperPACs ISN'T the candidate him/herself. It's the PAC or SuperPAC! And as we've already seen, they don't always tell the truth. Case and point, look at what happened w/Newt Gingrich's campaign in Iowa? (Can't believe I'm actually defending him here.)

Newt has complained continuously that the ads Mitt Romney's SuperPAC have put out contain atleast four inaccuracies. You'd think all Newt has to do is put out his own add that sets the record straight, but that's hard to do when you don't have alot of advertising dollars like your opponent. Making matters worse, your opponent DOES NOT have control over the SuperPAC nor its ads. This outlines the problem candidates have when they come under attack by SuperPACs. And it doesn't have to be just one SuperPAC. It could be several of them attacking one candidate and there's nothing he can do about it because MILLIONS of dollars go into these entities to spent on a federal campaign WITHOUT requiring the candidate's consent. That means that although the PAC/SuperPAC is exercising it's free speech rights, only another PAC/SuperPAC with the financial where with all has the capability to diffuse the misinformation. Now, let's talk about how this misinformation affects the general public.

Remember the "dealth panels" from the healthcare reform debates? How many people STILL believe this to be true? Granted, this didn't come from a PAC or SuperPAC, but imagine if you will a constant barrage of "misleading advertisements" directed at one candidate constantly throughout the primaries? Imagine how many people will believe what's espoused to be true? As we're keenly aware, "say it enough times, eventually the lie becomes the truth", i.e., socialist, marxist, nationalist - contrary to the evidence presented. It's not difficult to mislead the public because most of us don't take the time to learn the truth for ourselves. Most would rather just sit back and let someone else "tell them" what to think about this or that. All you have to do is listen to talk radio to figure this out. (Just using it as an example; not knocking the format in and of itself because there are some good talk-jocks out there.)

The point is there's a lack of accountability with PACs and SuperPAC and this definitely leads to fooling the public into believing things that just aren't true.

For more info on PACs/SuperPACs, see this Wikipedia article. Also, as an aside, here's a list of donors from Mitt Romney's "Restore Our Future" PAC. Notice the donor dates.
 
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Okay, this has broken down enough. Let's get back on track.

You say the government has a compelling state interest that justifies limiting the speech of groups, right?

So exactly what is that interest and why?

There's really no point in repeating the same answers over and over again, when your response never rises above the level of "is not!"
 
"What these two entertainers have accomplished over the past few weeks, exposing dishonesty and hypocrisy through humor while at the same time actually educating viewers about the corrupting influence of money in politics (thus understanding the absurdity of it all), can only be described as comedic genius.

Beginning with the Supreme Court's “Citizens United” decision that allowed Mitt Romney to proudly say to a group of semisupporters, “Corporations are people, too, my friend …” and leading up to the insulting (yet legal) practice of allowing Super PACs to say whatever they want about candidates as long as they don't “coordinate” with actual candidates, Stewart and Colbert have implemented a visual strategic exercise of enlightening voters (mainly viewers younger than 30) on how ridiculous and downright undemocratic the entire process really is.

To believe Romney's Super PAC (Restore Our Future), formed and run by his former personal lawyer, is not coordinating with Romney over ad content is like believing Rob Katz makes every Vail Resorts decision based solely upon the wants and needs of Vail Resorts employees first and the good of the community second (with stockholders way down the line).

What an insulting joke."

Vail Daily columnist Richard Carnes: Super PACs are super insulting | VailDaily.com
 
True, it's not corrupt to speak your mind about a candidate. However, the hope is that the one spouting the commentary is, in fact, speaking the truth. The problem here is the information disseminated by the PACs and SuperPACs ISN'T the candidate him/herself. It's the PAC or SuperPAC! And as we've already seen, they don't always tell the truth. Case and point, look at what happened w/Newt Gingrich's campaign in Iowa? (Can't believe I'm actually defending him here.)

The government can't regulate truth, especially in politics.

Newt has complained continuously that the ads Mitt Romney's SuperPAC have put out contain atleast four inaccuracies. You'd think all Newt has to do is put out his own add that sets the record straight, but that's hard to do when you don't have alot of advertising dollars like your opponent.

Oh, come on. He can do it in a debate! Or call a news conference. Or put it on his website. Or all of these things.

Making matters worse, your opponent DOES NOT have control over the SuperPAC nor its ads. This outlines the problem candidates have when they come under attack by SuperPACs. And it doesn't have to be just one SuperPAC. It could be several of them attacking one candidate and there's nothing he can do about it because MILLIONS of dollars go into these entities to spent on a federal campaign WITHOUT requiring the candidate's consent.

Tough!

It's not the candidate's speech or money! Since when do candidates have to have total control over what is said about them!

That means that although the PAC/SuperPAC is exercising it's free speech rights, only another PAC/SuperPAC with the financial where with all has the capability to diffuse the misinformation.

Not really. Not that it matters.
Now, let's talk about how this misinformation affects the general public.

No.

You may not consider how "misinformation" affects the public. That is not something the government may consider when deciding to regulate speech. The people will decide. The government may not decide it knows better. It's your kind of patronizing thinking that was EXACTLY why the First Amendment was adopted.
 
There's really no point in repeating the same answers over and over again, when your response never rises above the level of "is not!"

You have yet to tell me how you think there's a compelling interest in limiting SuperPACs, etc. The best you could come up with was inciting violence. No such threat exists with SuperPACs. So you haven't offered an answer at all.
 
The government can't regulate truth, especially in politics.
No one said they could! But the government can set the rules on how money that is injected into politics specifically to buy media advertising space doesn't lead to "false advertising". The "false advertising" is those aspects of a political ad that are not true.

Oh, come on. He can do it in a debate! Or call a news conference. Or put it on his website. Or all of these things.

Tackling each of the above point-by-point...

Debates. As we've seen throughout these 19 GOP debates (and counting), not all of the candidates get a fair share of the minutes. Santorum and Ron Paul are still in this GOP race, but you and I both know they have not received anywhere near the amount of talk-time as Mitt Romney or Newt Gingrinch. Of course, your counter-argument will be "well, they're not the front runners" or "they're not the candidates the people are interested in". Really? Seems to me people voted for Santorum and Paul voted during the Iowa, NH, and SC caucuses, and will likely do so again. They may not be receiving as many votes as Romney or Gingrinch, but they've received the appropriate amount of votes to qualify as legitimate GOP candidates. Thus, they share the stage with the two front runners. And yet, they don't receive nearly the amount of face time as the other two.

News Conference. We both know that only works provided the candidates say or do something the media considers to be "news worthy". Case and point: How many press conferences did Herman Cain conduct until he was "forced" to drop out of the race? And under what circumstances did he hold said news conferences? If you're being honest about it, you'll know that no news outlet will cover a candidate's press conference unless he has something of importance to say. And usually that "something important" can be attributed to some accusation that's been made against him, i.e., Herman Cain's womanizing and subsequent fall from grace. But you are correct in one sense - if the candidate is fortunate enough to be in a position where he/she can get before the news cameras for whatever reason while on the campaign trail, he/she should take every opportunity to address those issues and set the record straight. To be clear, Herman Cain had more face time in front of the cameras outside the debate arenas than any of the other candidate. He had plenty of opportunities to "set the record straight". Not :spin: it, not lie to weasle his way out of it. Just set the record straight. So, how'd that work out for him? Did he tell the truth? Did he set the record straight?

Websites. You'd better be able to update your site routinely. Otherwise, it does you no good to have a site filled with inaccuracies. Put simply: A political website is only as effective as the content it contains at any given time. So, if I'm looking for relevent information about you, your policies, your achievements, your plans for the future, your position on issues I care about, your website had better address these such matters. If not, it's really not going to do the candidate any good.

Other things. You mean like direct-mail? Cost money to run an effective direct-mail campaign. Just ask the Architect, Karl Rove himself. He'll tell you. That's how he got started in the business of political compaigning. (And yes! It IS a business for him. Ever heard of the "Rove + Company"?)

Tough!

It's not the candidate's speech or money! Since when do candidates have to have total control over what is said about them!

Again, you miss the point. The line of communications are purposely "blurred" between the candidate and the PAC/SuperPAC that supports him. These entities ARE an extension of the candidate but in an indirect way. The idea behind PACs was to keep the politician safe from being unduly influenced by money that fed into his political advertising campaign. If money flowed into this "advertising company" - because all a PAC really does is advertise on behalf of the candidate - and the "PAC" isn't required to inform the candidate who made the contribution or how they intend to use the funds in an ad campaign, the PAC could say whatever it wanted about the opposing candidate and claim automony while the candidate him/herself gets to claim "plausable deniability". The two "don't talk to each other," the "PAC" isn't required to publish who the donors are" except under specific guidelines (See FEC rules). The public is kept in the dark until they start digging into matters for themselves. And as I've already pointed out, by the time most people come around to realizing they've been dupped, it's usually too late.

Total control should be necessary. After all, it is the candidate's career in politics that's on the line. I would think they'd want to be able to "approve or disapprove of this message". The funny thing here is folks talk about honesty and integrity concerning their candidates, yet we allow this to happen? :confused: Unbelievable!! :doh

Not really. Not that it matters.

So, just so everyone understands this, it's okay for Newt Gingrinch to complain about the negative attack ads Romney's "ad campaign" puts out, but it's not okay if he turns around and receive a $10 million dollar check from a wealthy Los Vegas contributor so that Newt could do what? Run similar negative ads against his primary opponent, Mitt Romney? As was the case with Herman Cain, let's see if Newt's ads "sets his record straight". You Republican voters should be paying attention to that, not whether or not Newt strikes back!!

No.

You may not consider how "misinformation" affects the public. That is not something the government may consider when deciding to regulate speech. The people will decide. The government may not decide it knows better. It's your kind of patronizing thinking that was EXACTLY why the First Amendment was adopted.

Why not? I'm part of the greater society, part of the voting public. Why shouldn't I argue against how my vote might be manipulated because I may not get to hear what the other candidate has to say because the more well financied candidate via his PAC/SuperPAC connections are drowning out their opponent? Does not the public deserve to hear both sides?

You spoke of the alternate forms of communication the candidates could use. I've outline how those communications methods may not be as effective if the opposing candidate isn't well financed. You can't claim "wealth" helps the candidate on the one hand but turn a blind eye to how the lack of same hurts both the opposing candidate's chances of winning an election through various forms of media while it also prevents the public from learning more about the opposing candidate. It's one thing if these candidates RAISED advertising dollars on their own; it's quite another when the wealthiest contributor is able to do it for them. But I digress...

Until this post, I have NOT stated what I believe the government should do concerning misleading ads from PACs during campaigns. I HAVE said something should be done to ensure false and misleading ads don't overwhelme a campaign.
 
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Okay, this has broken down enough. Let's get back on track.

You say the government has a compelling state interest that justifies limiting the speech of groups, right?

So exactly what is that interest and why?

Huh?? I already said it multiple time. The interest is in ensuring a free and open debate because such a debate strengthens our democracy
 
See, I think that's absolutely insane. But let's go with it for a minute - give me a real world example of how you think that applies to Super PACs, etc. and why.

(Don't forget to tell us how it would apply to the media too, which are groups too, by the way. Oh, and political parties - no speech for those groups either, right?)

Again, it would apply when a group uses financial pressures to prevent someone else from expressing an opinion the group disagrees with. In the case of the media, it would apply if the media corp refuses to air an ad due solely to its' content



Yes you are. You're using an incredibly vague justification when any real court rulings were MUCH more specific than that - if they actually said that at all.

No, I'm not. The courts have ALREADY found that the govt does have a compelling interest in ensuring a free and open debate. I am not stretching anything with that point.
 
You have yet to tell me how you think there's a compelling interest in limiting SuperPACs, etc. The best you could come up with was inciting violence. No such threat exists with SuperPACs. So you haven't offered an answer at all.

That was dishonest. I have given numerous examples. Putting your hands on your ears and shouting "LA LA LA!" is not a legitimate response
 
No one said they could! But the government can set the rules on how money that is injected into politics specifically to buy media advertising space doesn't lead to "false advertising". The "false advertising" is those aspects of a political ad that are not true.

Sorry, but that's the same thing.

Why not? I'm part of the greater society, part of the voting public. Why shouldn't I argue against how my vote might be manipulated because I may not get to hear what the other candidate has to say because the more well financied candidate via his PAC/SuperPAC connections are drowning out their opponent? Does not the public deserve to hear both sides?

I mean you can't use the government to enforce your views by limiting speech. Because of the First Amendment. You can complain about it all you want.
 
That was dishonest. I have given numerous examples. Putting your hands on your ears and shouting "LA LA LA!" is not a legitimate response

No, you haven't.

If you think you have, simply direct me to them. I have yet to see any.
 
Sorry, but that's the same thing.



I mean you can't use the government to enforce your views by limiting speech. Because of the First Amendment. You can complain about it all you want.

No, it's not the same, and no one is calling for "the govt to enforce" their views
 
Again, it would apply when a group uses financial pressures to prevent someone else from expressing an opinion the group disagrees with. In the case of the media, it would apply if the media corp refuses to air an ad due solely to its' content

Um, well, okay. But that's not really the issue of this thread.

No, I'm not. The courts have ALREADY found that the govt does have a compelling interest in ensuring a free and open debate. I am not stretching anything with that point.

You are stretching. The courts have most certainly not said that the government can do whatever it wants to ensure free and open debate, including limiting all speech in all circumstances.

You have to be specific about what you think should be done, not just offer vague generalities.
 
No, it's not the same, and no one is calling for "the govt to enforce" their views

I don't know exactly what you want. You aren't making it clear. Whatever it is, the government may not limit speech in order to make sure that political speech is "true" in its view. That's unconstitutional. It also may not limit speech to ensure "free and open debate" which is an oxymoron anyway.

Okay? So whatever you have to say, go ahead.
 
Um, well, okay. But that's not really the issue of this thread.

Umm, it is directly related to the point I've been making since I first posted in this thread. You have been claiming that a group could never do anything that worked against a free and open debate. Now you're saying that my example that proves you wrong is irrelevant? :lamo

This is not the first time you've claimed that my response to your argument was irrelevant. It's getting boring. IMO, you'd be better off addressing the points instead of declaring responses to YOUR arguments "irrelevant"




You are stretching. The courts have most certainly not said that the government can do whatever it wants to ensure free and open debate, including limiting all speech in all circumstances.

You have to be specific about what you think should be done, not just offer vague generalities.

Now you're just posting fiction. I never said "the govt can do whatever it wants". I gave you specific examples. Even you couldn't deny that. You said, and I quote

Um, well, okay
(see above)
 
I don't know exactly what you want. You aren't making it clear. Whatever it is, the government may not limit speech in order to make sure that political speech is "true" in its view. That's unconstitutional. It also may not limit speech to ensure "free and open debate" which is an oxymoron anyway.

Okay? So whatever you have to say, go ahead.

You're not understanding does not justify you making such an accusation. And if I've been unclear (and I don't think that's the case. You've repeatedly ignored whats been said) that also is not an excuse for you to make such an accusation

ANd what I have to say has already been said. Multiple times.

It's obvious that you are either unwilling or incapable of understanding. I have said, MANY TIMES, that the ONLY reason the govt could limit speech would be "in order to ensure a free and open debate". For you to continue to think that means I said "the govt can do whatever it wants" proves that I have no reason to expect that you will ever understand
 
Umm, it is directly related to the point I've been making since I first posted in this thread. You have been claiming that a group could never do anything that worked against a free and open debate. Now you're saying that my example that proves you wrong is irrelevant? :lamo

I never said a group couldn't possibly do that. I'm saying you need to make a really really good case for how speech can possibly do that.

Now you're just posting fiction. I never said "the govt can do whatever it wants". I gave you specific examples.

I will look for them.

EDIT: I looked again.

You do a great job of explaining all the challenges of communication, for a candidate or anyone else.

You don't even come close to giving any example that actually justifies the government coming in and limiting speech.

If you think so, explain specifically why. Just listing why it's hard to communicate sometimes doesn't cut it. Not even close.
 
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It's obvious that you are either unwilling or incapable of understanding. I have said, MANY TIMES, that the ONLY reason the govt could limit speech would be "in order to ensure a free and open debate".

Fine. WTF does that actually mean? It's really vague.

What is the policy you support? What speech, if any, would you limit, and why? How would doing so ensure open and free debate?
 
I never said a group couldn't possibly do that. I'm saying you need to make a really really good case for how speech can possibly do that.



I will look for them.

EDIT: I looked again.

You do a great job of explaining all the challenges of communication, for a candidate or anyone else.

You don't even come close to giving any example that actually justifies the government coming in and limiting speech.

If you think so, explain specifically why. Just listing why it's hard to communicate sometimes doesn't cut it. Not even close.

Fine. WTF does that actually mean? It's really vague.

What is the policy you support? What speech, if any, would you limit, and why? How would doing so ensure open and free debate?


You have asked these very same question multiple times, and I have answered them each time you asked. Now, I'll just repeat what I said earlier

what I have to say has already been said. Multiple times.

It's obvious that you are either unwilling or incapable of understanding. I have said, MANY TIMES, that the ONLY reason the govt could limit speech would be "in order to ensure a free and open debate". For you to continue to think that means I said "the govt can do whatever it wants" proves that I have no reason to expect that you will ever understand
 
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You have asked these very same question multiple times, and I have answered them each time you asked. Now, I'll just repeat what I said earlier

You have never given a good answer.

You're welcome to direct me the post where you think you did.

If you're just going to do this though, don't bother.
 
You have never given a good answer.

You're welcome to direct me the post where you think you did.

If you're just going to do this though, don't bother.

You have asked these very same question multiple times, and I have answered them each time you asked.
 
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