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Where They Stand: The Republican Candidates on the Issues (Simplified)

Because our inability to pass a good law is not a justification for passing a bad law. ObamaCare contributes to the factors that are destroying the healthcare industry in our country.

My point is that just saying it's a "bad" law isn't an argument. What is it about the law that's worse than what we have now? Can you come up with at least one thing?
 
My point is that just saying it's a "bad" law isn't an argument. What is it about the law that's worse than what we have now? Can you come up with at least one thing?
Well, from a conservative perspective, it crosses a line that it is beyond this one issue. To preserve the constitutional limits to government is more important than any benefits it might for healthcare compared to the status quo.
 
Well, from a conservative perspective, it crosses a line that it is beyond this one issue. To preserve the constitutional limits to government is more important than any benefits it might for healthcare compared to the status quo.

Holy ****, can y'all try to be specific? What provision crosses which line?
 
The individual mandate. I did mention this originally.

Right, and as I mentioned before, the individual mandate was originally devised by conservatives and justified on the basis of personal responsibility.



The Republican argument against the mandate boils down to, "we came up with the idea because it promotes personal responsibility, but now Obama supports it, so we have to oppose it."
 
The argument is fairly solid. You can quibble about the fact that healthcare is different, but in general it seems at least a very strong position to me. That is if you care about retaining limits to federal government power. The history is irrelevant. Conservatives are perfectly capable of making an argument that has nothing in common with the one you have devised. Indeed, conservatives don't even have to be members of the Republican party.
 
The argument is fairly solid. You can quibble about the fact that healthcare is different, but in general it seems at least a very strong position to me. That is if you care about retaining limits to federal government power. The history is irrelevant. Conservatives are perfectly capable of making an argument that has nothing in common with the one you have devised. Indeed, conservatives don't even have to be members of the Republican party.

I guess I haven't heard an argument actually framed. I just see conclusory statements that the mandate isn't conservative.

My position is that, if someone is actually walking the personal responsibility walk, and he can afford health insurance, then he has health insurance and this should be a non-issue as to being forced to do something. Now, the purpose of the mandate isn't just to jerk people around for the fun of it. In fact the purpose is to support the provision that prohibits health insurance companies from denying coverage for preexisting conditions. If you support that provision, as the majority of Americans do, then you have to have some means of preventing people from skating by until something happens, and then purchasing insurance. Allowing that to occur is tantamount to saying that it's okay to freeload on people who are being responsible and providing for their own care.
 
I guess I haven't heard an argument actually framed. I just see conclusory statements that the mandate isn't conservative.

My position is that, if someone is actually walking the personal responsibility walk, and he can afford health insurance, then he has health insurance and this should be a non-issue as to being forced to do something. Now, the purpose of the mandate isn't just to jerk people around for the fun of it. In fact the purpose is to support the provision that prohibits health insurance companies from denying coverage for preexisting conditions. If you support that provision, as the majority of Americans do, then you have to have some means of preventing people from skating by until something happens, and then purchasing insurance. Allowing that to occur is tantamount to saying that it's okay to freeload on people who are being responsible and providing for their own care.
But the problem is that if the federal government can use the commerce clause to legislate for inaction then it can pretty much use it for anything.
 
Where they stand. Anywhere you want them to until AFTER the election!
 
The Health Care Bill that was passed is just the first step in the door. With a corporate owned Congress it was the best we could get.

We now have a chance to clean out Congress and get a new group that will do the right thing.Then they may pass Universal. It has taken 70 years to get anything passed,and if you watched the show on CSpan you know who balked at passing the Single Payer.

Are you willing to get rid of your Congress person? Are they working for you, or are they just living on the Lobby gravy train?
The choice is up to each of us.
 
Just to have English as our Official Language (finally) would make me jump and vote Romney in a New York minute!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GO MITT!
 
But the problem is that if the federal government can use the commerce clause to legislate for inaction then it can pretty much use it for anything.

They can already use it for pretty much anything. Nothing new here. The Founding Fathers required private citizens to purchase military supplies out of their own pocket books over 200 years ago.
 
They can already use it for pretty much anything. Nothing new here. The Founding Fathers required private citizens to purchase military supplies out of their own pocket books over 200 years ago.
As far as I know you cannot use that clause to legislate for non-action or doing anything you want right now. Otherwise there are already no limits to federal government power.
 
As far as I know you cannot use that clause to legislate for non-action or doing anything you want right now. Otherwise there are already no limits to federal government power.

The limit is whether there is a "rational basis" to believe that the measure affects interstate commerce. The bar is extremely low, and has been for almost 100 years. Commerce Clause - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
How is it different than any other tax?
But it isn't a tax, originally. I know Obama decided it should be argued that way, because of the huge import of using the commerce clause. But it, originally, used the commerce clause and fined inaction through this, something quite new.
 
Because our inability to pass a good law is not a justification for passing a bad law. ObamaCare contributes to the factors that are destroying the healthcare industry in our country.

I think you really need to study the origins of our nation's health care system before you attempt to make the argument that the reforms that are currently in place need to be repealled. Believe me, what we now have under ObamaCare is preferable to the status quo. Now, would I have liked to have seen universal health care passed? Yes, because under such a system everyone would be paying into the health care system similar to what we currently due under Medicare. (BTW, the CLASS Act was the closest thing we had going towards UHC only it could never work as long as: 1) we still have Medicaid and Medicare in place; and 2) as long as young adults were allowed to come under their parent's insurance plan until reaching age 26.)

I would ask those who would rather see ObamaCare repealled really start to ask their GOP presidential hopefuls exactly what they'd replace the reforms with? Not one single GOP candidate has ever stated even slightly what they'd replace ObamaCare with. Yet, you have two candidates whose ideas on health care mirror at their core the essence of the individual mandate:

Romney = RomneyCare
Gingrich = a health care bond
All others = ? or at least they lean towards allowing health savings accounts which happen to be included in ObamaCare

I've stated in the Health Care forum and I'll echo it here: ObamaCare even with the individual mandate is the closest thing we'll get to UHC. And since most Americans already have health insurance either through their employer, their state (Medicaid), the fed (Medicare or the VA if you're a retired or disabled veteran), I really don't see what all the fuss is about concerning the individual mandate.

As for the GOP candidates themselves, I really want people to really think about the positions each candidate represents as outlined in the OP. Not one of the candidates have the interest of the "People" in mind. Everyone one of them would change the tax code, for example, to be more in favor of corporations or the wealth-class, not the working-class. Haven't we had enough of crony capitalism? Has not the deck been stacked enough in favor the corporate interest? None of the tax initiatives proposed by any of the GOP candidates would help the middle-class. NONE! And yet people will go out and vote for these people knowing full weel that none of the tax initiatives they've proposed actually work. Doubt me? Consider the fact that we've been under the Bush tax code structure now for atleast the last EIGHT YEARS and look at the state of the economy before Obama came into office.

Folks, you really need to get your heads out of the clouds where "supply-side economics" is concerned - because every GOP candidate supports this false taxation strategy - and really come to better understand the false argument of "marginal tax rates" as these candidates and their anti-tax sober rattlers, i.e., Grover Norquist, articulates them.

They argue "smaller government" yet the only federal agencies any of them would end are EPA, Dept. of Education and Dept. of Energy? Now ask yourself why? Why push to end these agencies now instead of when GW Bush was in office or Reagan for that matter? There's a clear agenda here, folks, and it has nothing to do with the perceived ineffectiveness of these agencies.

If you really want to better understand the state of our nation's economy and how we got to this point over the last 30-40 years, I'd encourage reading:

"Bad Money," by Kevin Phillips; or,
"The Big Con," by Jonathan Chait
 
They can already use it for pretty much anything. Nothing new here. The Founding Fathers required private citizens to purchase military supplies out of their own pocket books over 200 years ago.

The only thing that made this "mandate" different from the insurance mandate is the fact that no one who purchased weapons or provisions for being part of the Militia had to pay taxes on the items they bought. But then again, neither do individuals who fail to purchase health insurance but can afford to do so under ObamaCare. They'll pay a tax penalty, but if you read the law where the taxing provision is concerned no one will be pursued in earnest if they don't pay it (i.e., no jail time, no wage garnishments; you simply file your taxes and whatever "penalty" you own gets deducted accordingly same as if you "owe" federal income taxes).

Again, if you already have health insurance, I really don't see where this is a problem.
 
If you really want to better understand the state of our nation's economy and how we got to this point over the last 30-40 years, I'd encourage reading:


"Bad Money," by Kevin Phillips; or,
"The Big Con," by Jonathan Chait

You hit the nail on the head.

And I'll add to the reading list:

"Repbublic, Lost: How Money Corrupts Congress--and a Plan to Stop It," by Lawrence Lessig.
 
The only thing that made this "mandate" different from the insurance mandate is the fact that no one who purchased weapons or provisions for being part of the Militia had to pay taxes on the items they bought. But then again, neither do individuals who fail to purchase health insurance but can afford to do so under ObamaCare. They'll pay a tax penalty, but if you read the law where the taxing provision is concerned no one will be pursued in earnest if they don't pay it (i.e., no jail time, no wage garnishments; you simply file your taxes and whatever "penalty" you own gets deducted accordingly same as if you "owe" federal income taxes).

Again, if you already have health insurance, I really don't see where this is a problem.

True, but beyond that the mandate is nothing but an ass backwards tax incentive. What they could have done instead was increase the marginal tax rate of the lowest bracket by x% (where x% totals $675 or whatever the fine is) and then make health insurance premiums deductible to the extent that the deduction offset the tax increase. Poof! Now there is no mandate, but you have exactly the same tax incentive to purchase health care insurance.
 
You hit the nail on the head.
And I'll add to the reading list:
"Repbublic, Lost: How Money Corrupts Congress--and a Plan to Stop It," by Lawrence Lessig.
The only way to really stop it is for the People to get smart and realize that not one of the GOP hopefuls have the Peope's interest at heart. NONE! Again, listen to their promises. Listen to what they say concerning job growth, taxation, health care reform. Listen very carefully to their foreign policy agency and how wreckless they all are. The only one who would disengage from around the world is Ron Paul, but while I do support his position on America not being the police of the world, I don't support his policy of isolationism. I think that's dangerous in itself.

But again listen to what they say then really think about how we got involved in Iraq in the first place. Think about how Russia got their asses handed to them militarily and economically by staying engaged in a war they shouldn't have been involved in. (They invaded another country just as Germany invaded Poland. Atleast we're fighting in Afghanistan to defend against being attacked by an organization based in country. In short, our fight is justified; theirs wasn't.) Listen to how all but Ron Paul would engage Iran militarily. Haven't we had enough fighting for the last decade? I mean, we're done with Lybia, just left Iraq and are two years removed from leaving Afghanistan and they'd put us right back on a war-footing if they could (less Paul). And how much did the War in Iraq cost again? IT'S MADNESS!!! Absolutely madness what these GOP candidates are campaigning on. But people are buying the obsurdity.
 
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The only way to really stop it is for the People to get smart and realize that not one of the GOP hopefuls have the Peope's interest at heart. NONE! Again, listen to their promises. Listen to what they say concerning job growth, taxation, health care reform. Listen very carefully to their foreign policy agency and how wreckless they all are. The only one who would disengage from around the world is Ron Paul, but while I do support his position on America not being the police of the world, I don't support his policy of isolationism. I think that's dangerous in itself.

But again listen to what they say then really think about how we got involved in Iraq in the first place. Think about how Russia got their asses handed to them militarily and economically by staying engaged in a war they shouldn't have been involved in. (They invaded another country just as Germany invaded Poland. Atleast we're fighting in Afghanistan to defend against being attacked by an organization based in country. In short, our fight is justified; theirs wasn't.) Listen to how all but Ron Paul would engage Iran militarily. Haven't we had enough fighting for the last decade? I mean, we're done with Lybia, just left Iraq and are two years removed from leaving Afghanistan and they'd put us right back on a war-footing if they could (less Paul). And how much did the War in Iraq cost again? IT'S MADNESS!!! Absolutely madness what these GOP candidates are campaigning on. But people are buying the obsurdity.

Lessig's belief, and it's one that I share, is that the only way to stop the madness is to take the money out of politics. Unfortunately, thanks to some whacky SC decisions, that will require a constitutional amendment. And because Congress is highly unlikely to cut off its own money supply, it will have to come up through the states. That's also quite improblable, but maybe not impossible. This is one thing that liberals, conservatives, libertarians, and everyone in between should be able to agree on.
 
This year? Absolutely no one. We need to repeal ObamaCare and then put healthcare on the backburner until we've got the economy and the budget to try something more effective.

You realize health care reform has been on the back burner since I've been alive, some 53+ years. Putting it on the back burner, especially if republicans are elected means no reform at all. And certianly not UHC. If the issue matters to you at all, you vote for people likley to move it forward and not backward. This redorm is not perfect, far from it, but moving backward does not help in any way. Improve it, work to make the proer changes, but move it forward.

BTW, proper healthcare reform can help the economy. If you really want to help business, have UHC and remove it from the work place.
 
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