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Ron Paul's Foul Old Newsletters Back in the News

If anyone is not familiar with this excellent site, I highly advise you go there to get a primer on libertariansim.

Libertarianism Makes You Stupid

There is even a special section on libertarians and civil rights. And just to be clear, we are talking about civil rights for African Americans as was known in the popular historical term THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT lest one be confused with civil liberties issues which are not racially based.

a small section for all


Libertarianism and civil-rights laws - a case study

One of the seamiest and ugliest aspects of Libertarianism is its support of turning back the civil-rights clock to pre-1964 legal situation for businesses. "I am not making this up". They're very explicit about it:
Consequently, we oppose any government attempts to regulate private discrimination, including choices and preferences, in employment, housing, and privately owned businesses. The right to trade includes the right not to trade -- for any reasons whatsoever; the right of association includes the right not to associate, for exercise of the right depends upon mutual consent. That's "rights" according to Libertarianism. Whites-only lunch counters, "No Jews or dogs" hotels, "we don't serve your kind here", "No Irish need apply", "This is man's job", etc. All this is a "right of association" in Libertarian theology. Such a weird position is not just the purview of some position-writers in a corner, but a surprisingly common trait of Libertarians. It's one of the surest way of identifying one, if they justify such a reactionary position from abstract considerations.

It must be stressed that a) Libertarians ARE NOT racists, sexists, etc. and b) The above is not meant to comment either way on the much more controversial affirmative-action debate. Libertarians can go to town whenever they're called racist, sexist, and so on for the above (gee, how could anyone ever get that idea?), proclaiming their great personal but private commitment to equality. Of course, they never have to do anything much in this regard since events have passed them by. But they want make sure you know they fully support the ideals, even if they think that all the past decades legal effort should be repealed as immoral and unprincipled. They also love to switch the debate to affirmative action, because that's far more contentious than anti-discrimination. But the position's very plain. Drinking from the wrong water fountain would presumably be "initiation of force", allowing retaliation of force to eject the malefactor.

There is more, much more but you have to go and read the entire article.

And perhaps now we can get back to the topic of the Paul newsletters, their horrid content, and who is responsible for such ugliness.
 
WOAH!!!!! Soembody really got sensitive there. Must have had far more than just one raw nerve exposed.

And you accuse me of baiting!!!! .... lets see now ... in one post

a) ignorant bastard
b) weak little mind
c) you are a fool
d) poor teacher
e) fool

And this from a person who classifies himself as an adult? And all in just five lines no less! When one goes out on a limb such as you just did and then saws it off themselves, not much more is needed to be said.

Nope, there's not.
 
If anyone is not familiar with this excellent site, I highly advise you go there to get a primer on libertariansim.

Libertarianism Makes You Stupid

There is even a special section on libertarians and civil rights. And just to be clear, we are talking about civil rights for African Americans as was known in the popular historical term THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT lest one be confused with civil liberties issues which are not racially based.

a small section for all




There is more, much more but you have to go and read the entire article.

And perhaps now we can get back to the topic of the Paul newsletters, their horrid content, and who is responsible for such ugliness.

This is stupid. Prominent libertarians like Paul only wish to repeal one, single provision of the CRA- a provision that is about as useless today as it was in 1964. Business owners, regardless of what the CRA dictates on paper, continue to reserve the right to refuse service to anyone. In hundreds of businesses that I have personally walked into, I have seen that sign in places such as Dennys, drug stores, and other restaurants and storefronts.

This is a complete non-issue. What would be the likely reaction if a person did indeed bar people of color from entering their store? The most likelihood of outcomes would be a public backlash that would culminate with either a changed policy or a bankrupted company. People do not tolerate racism in the same fashion and quantity that existed in the Jim Crow South (a system of segregation legislated and enforced by GOVERNMENT). There may be tiny little pockets of truly segregated towns in rural America. But have you ever driven through rural America (especially in the deep south). De-facto segregation exists in some close-minded communities no matter what we do to stop it. Segregation is even considered acceptable in some groups (Orthodox Judaism, Native Americans, Amish, etc.) This is not to say that libertarians are racist, which is an utterly ridiculous charge. Instead, it is more consistent with the idea of liberty. Paul may not be gay and may not like the gay lifestyle, but he'll vote to allow states the right to define marriage in their own way (and he personally believes the government should not be involved at all). Voting to legalize drugs doesn't mean you're a crack-smoking doper who enjoys the drug-addled lifestyle. Instead, it means you stand for liberty and are willing to accept and tolerate the diverse makeup of a free society. "We may not like what they do, but they should be free to do it" is a strong libertarian sentiment that applies to all civil liberties (and logically, there should not be a distinction between civil liberties and civil rights).
 
This is exactly why Ron Paul running on a national ticket for President would be a complete and total disaster and his supporters and he try to nuance this very issue. I wonder how many Americans would accept the rational that "standing for liberty" means allowing racial discrimination in public places?

We had this very debate over fifty years ago. The nation has moved on....... at least most of us have.
 
This is exactly why Ron Paul running on a national ticket for President would be a complete and total disaster and his supporters and he try to nuance this very issue. I wonder how many Americans would accept the rational that "standing for liberty" means allowing racial discrimination in public places?

We had this very debate over fifty years ago. The nation has moved on....... at least most of us have.

As Milton Friedman once said, "A society that puts equality before freedom will get neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both." Standing for liberty entails a lot of negative consequences. It means you have to let your neighbor sodomize his male partner and allow them to marry in their own community. It means allowing your neighbor to smoke pot or do hard drugs if he/she so wishes to do so. A free market is a free market, not a market based on forced trade. You don't force trade on people. If A doesn't want to trade with B, then C doesn't have the right to hire D to injure A in order to compensate B. Would you be OK with the idea of forcing Jewish business owners to sell to white supremacist skinheads wearing swastikas armbands? Would you be OK with the idea of punishing store owners who refuse service to disruptive customers? So far, you have yet to include any exemptions in your worldview of forced trade. One of the great benefits of a free market is the ability to not trade with others, not just the ability to form mutual agreements. There is a whole lot of unintended consequences of forcing people to do business with the entire public simply because they're positioned in a commercial setting. We have the right to boycott companies. I imagine you wouldn't agree with punishing boycotts if they served a purpose (regardless of how stupid or trivial that purpose may be). If you're willing to let the consumer discriminate according to market options, you should also let the other side be able to discriminate in their own fashion. That is the face of liberty. It's not always pretty, but it's important to uphold the entire principle of liberty lest we completely debase it to the point where it commands no significance.
 
we had this debate in the Sixties. We decided that the right to discriminate based on racial bigotry was not a right we wanted to protect - even under the guise of what some would call 'liberty'.
 
we had this debate in the Sixties. We decided that the right to discriminate based on racial bigotry was not a right we wanted to protect - even under the guise of what some would call 'liberty'.

The government has an obligation to serve everyone equally. There is nothing in the constitution (or in the idea of freedom) that dictates an obligation by all to serve all. Discrimination according to risk, according to preference, according to price, according to quality, etc. occur naturally every day. When you say (if you say) that you're most attracted to Latina women, you are discriminating against all non-Latina women in the case of sexual partners.

Just answer the scenario I proposed above and I'll be happy. An orthodox Jewish family owns a kosher restaurant in a largely Jewish neighborhood. Men who skinheads, steel-toed boots, and swastakisa tattoed on their bodies walk into the restaurant and prepare to sit down for a lunch. Let's presume that the grandfather who originally founded the restaurant is a holocaust survivor and the neo-Nazis were not acting aggressively or being disruptive. Would be your official response if that Jewish family decided they did not wish to serve those men because of their ideological background? Since it is not a "race" issue, perhaps you will be completely fine with such discrimination. If that is your response, then let me completely destroy the concept of race as a biological trait. Race is a SOCIAL construct, exactly like ideologues. It is not morally right to discriminate for the wrong reasons, but that doesn't mean it should be illegal. A person selling their body for money or ingesting harmful drugs may not be acting morally, but that doesn't give society the right to punish and restrict their way of life...so long as what they do does not directly harm a third party.

In the case of the neo-Nazis in the Jewish restaurant, it would be the right of the owners to discriminate based on ethnic bigotry- that bigotry being the hateful convictions held by the potential customers. You shouldn't force anyone to trade with anyone else. That is enslavement. African-American businesses should have the right to turn down racist skinheads as well. You would sympathize in those cases, yet it poses a contradiction on your part.
 
The SC has stricken down crazily drawn majority-minority districts on equal protection grounds. They can pass strict scrutiny, but it's a pretty high bar.

The skinhead analogy is inapposite. Racial discrimination by business owners was outlawed under the Commerce Clause.
 
The SC has stricken down crazily drawn majority-minority districts on equal protection grounds. They can pass strict scrutiny, but it's a pretty high bar.

The skinhead analogy is inapposite. Racial discrimination by business owners was outlawed under the Commerce Clause.

The Commerce Clause dictates no such ruling. And would you care to elaborate on WHY the skinhead analogy is inapposite? In the case that I just described, the Jewish business owners could be sued and fined for such acts of discrimination. It is an act of discrimination that neither you or I will oppose, but legally the provision of the CRA outlawing discrimination in private businesses could be applied to such groups (like the Neo-Nazis) who enter a private store on public grounds and are refused service.

Have you seen any of the "We Reserve the Right to Refuse Service to Anyone" signs? Isn't that a clear violation of the CRA? It is, but restricting that right to refuse service is a violation of personal freedom and property rights.
 
So Ron Paul flip-flopped on the death penalty.

All changes in opinion ever are not flip-flopping.

Flip-flopping is being on whatever side of the issue suits you best at a given moment.

What Ron Paul just did there is called "changing ones mind." He admitted it as such, gave his reasons for doing so, and that was that.

If you don't change your mind about a thing or two over your life time, you're stubborn to the point of intentional ignorance. It is not a virtue to be obstinately stuck on a single position for 20, 40, 60 years if you are given good reason to re-consider. That is foolishness.
 
I care about as much about this as Obama's relationship with Jeremiah Wright, which is to say, not at all.

Agreed. These are the type of useless political games that our corporate media enjoys pushing upon us. I do not believe that Ron Paul is a racist for one second. However, I do believe that a fringe group of the far right (Lew Rockwell types) are bigots and they will attach themselves to Paul. When you are an outside the box type of candidate like Ron Paul, you will also attract your fair share of nuts. However, I would argue people who equate social programs to tyranny are themselves nuts.
 
I'll give you that. I'll also argue that "progressives" or "social liberals" can be as racist, xenophobic, and ethnocentric as the next person. Take my mother, for instance. She will cry her eyes out after watching Mississippi Burning for the 100th time, yet will condemn ALL Japanese people as conniving, thieving, back-stabbing "nips" (her word, not mine). She'll also stereotype the entire Filipino culture as "money-grubbing" and the entire Muslim culture as fanatical. The greatest liberal president of the 20th century, FDR, brought back to America something that had been abolished more than 70 years prior: slavery.

I would love to see you offer some evidence for such a bold claim.
 

I don't care.

I'm tired of the PATRIOT Act. I'm tired of FISA. I'm tired of NDAA 2012. I'm tired of SOPA.

Now, I favor business regulations, welfare, and executive departments.

But I'm also tired of Representatives and Senators lining their pockets at the cost of my civil liberties and civil rights.

And if the Republicans aren't going to do anything about it and if the Democrats aren't going to do anything about it then I'm going to pick Ron Paul to do something about it.

I'd rather enjoy my rights, liberties, and freedoms and have the whole system fall than otherwise.
 
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It's called the forced internment of more than 110,000 people of Japanese descent - 2/3 of which were citizens.

And that move by FDR was perhaps the single worst thing he did in his twelve years as US President. It is a terrible negative mark on his otherwise stellar record and there is no decent excuse to be offered for it.

I would however refrain from the temptation of engage in hyperbolic exaggeration by calling it a return to slavery. It was not that. It was the forced imprisonment of people who had committed no crime and a denial of basic rights and due process. That cannot be minimized nor should it.
 
Libertarians can not be racist. Its that simple, yes it is.

Racists don't think they are racists either. The claim is nonsense.
 
The government has an obligation to serve everyone equally. There is nothing in the constitution (or in the idea of freedom) that dictates an obligation by all to serve all. Discrimination according to risk, according to preference, according to price, according to quality, etc. occur naturally every day. When you say (if you say) that you're most attracted to Latina women, you are discriminating against all non-Latina women in the case of sexual partners.

Just answer the scenario I proposed above and I'll be happy. An orthodox Jewish family owns a kosher restaurant in a largely Jewish neighborhood. Men who skinheads, steel-toed boots, and swastakisa tattoed on their bodies walk into the restaurant and prepare to sit down for a lunch. Let's presume that the grandfather who originally founded the restaurant is a holocaust survivor and the neo-Nazis were not acting aggressively or being disruptive. Would be your official response if that Jewish family decided they did not wish to serve those men because of their ideological background? Since it is not a "race" issue, perhaps you will be completely fine with such discrimination. If that is your response, then let me completely destroy the concept of race as a biological trait. Race is a SOCIAL construct, exactly like ideologues. It is not morally right to discriminate for the wrong reasons, but that doesn't mean it should be illegal. A person selling their body for money or ingesting harmful drugs may not be acting morally, but that doesn't give society the right to punish and restrict their way of life...so long as what they do does not directly harm a third party.

In the case of the neo-Nazis in the Jewish restaurant, it would be the right of the owners to discriminate based on ethnic bigotry- that bigotry being the hateful convictions held by the potential customers. You shouldn't force anyone to trade with anyone else. That is enslavement. African-American businesses should have the right to turn down racist skinheads as well. You would sympathize in those cases, yet it poses a contradiction on your part.

Many Paul supporters go to the most extreme contortions to explain why they want to return to legalizing denying housing, food, voting and employment to African-Americans. What they are defending is white-only restrooms, white-only restaurants, white-only neighborhoods and white-only employment lines of a white-only government.
 
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In the case of the neo-Nazis in the Jewish restaurant, it would be the right of the owners to discriminate based on ethnic bigotry- that bigotry being the hateful convictions held by the potential customers. You shouldn't force anyone to trade with anyone else. That is enslavement. African-American businesses should have the right to turn down racist skinheads as well.

Tolerating a universal right of business owners to discriminate against potential customers is a lose-lose proposition. It undermines the economic basis of conducting business, including profit, by injecting conflicting parameters. It undercuts the principle of equal opportunity.

Consider two situations. First, discrimination by the majority against a minority group. Second, discrimination by a minority group against the majority. The former case is very damaging to the minority because most of the leverage rests with the majority. The minority has few alternatives. Bargaining power rests with suppliers/sellers not the customer. In contrast, discrimination against the majority has a lesser impact on the majority, because the majority possesses the leverage from having a chance to conduct business with itself. Bargaining power rests with the customer (majority).

Indeed, Federalist No. 10 is no accident. The Founders understood the inherent danger that existed with factions and that such a faction could even be comprised of a majority. That's one of the strong arguments they made for Republican government. Civil Rights laws, even as they slightly infringe on a narrow right of discrimination in a limited number of circumstances, enhances the overall freedom of the public at large, because discrimination infringes on the freedoms of those who are targeted.

In Federalist No. 51, written by James Madison or Alexander Hamilton, the argument for protecting civil rights was sharpened:

If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself. A dependence on the people is, no doubt, the primary control on the government; but experience has taught mankind the necessity of auxiliary precautions. This policy of supplying, by opposite and rival interests, the defect of better motives, might be traced through the whole system of human affairs, private as well as public...

It is of great importance in a republic not only to guard the society against the oppression of its rulers, but to guard one part of the society against the injustice of the other part. Different interests necessarily exist in different classes of citizens. If a majority be united by a common interest, the rights of the minority will be insecure... Whilst all authority in it will be derived from and dependent on the society, the society itself will be broken into so many parts, interests, and classes of citizens, that the rights of individuals, or of the minority, will be in little danger from interested combinations of the majority. In a free government the security for civil rights must be the same as that for religious rights... In a society under the forms of which the stronger faction can readily unite and oppress the weaker, anarchy may as truly be said to reign as in a state of nature, where the weaker individual is not secured against the violence of the stronger; and as, in the latter state, even the stronger individuals are prompted, by the uncertainty of their condition, to submit to a government which may protect the weak as well as themselves; so, in the former state, will the more powerful factions or parties be gradnally induced, by a like motive, to wish for a government which will protect all parties, the weaker as well as the more powerful... In the extended republic of the United States, and among the great variety of interests, parties, and sects which it embraces, a coalition of a majority of the whole society could seldom take place on any other principles than those of justice and the general good; whilst there being thus less danger to a minor from the will of a major party, there must be less pretext, also, to provide for the security of the former, by introducing into the government a will not dependent on the latter, or, in other words, a will independent of the society itself.


The Civil Rights laws, which in effect 'control the effects of faction' to use Madison's words from Federalist No. 10 are not only constitutional, they are also consistent with the role of government as envisioned by the Founders. Republican government had a basic responsibility to protect civil rights. Republican government, though the powers granted to it in the Constitution, offered the strongest prospect for doing so.

Paul likes to label himself as a "constitutionalist." However, Paul's ideology is vastly different from what the Founders had in mind when devising the Constitution given the existence of their writings e.g., the Federalist papers. Indeed, Paul's ideology would amplify the concerns raised by Tocqueville that the American form of government might yet result in a "tyranny of the majority."

In sum, civil rights were conceived as a basic obligation of government by the United States' Founders. The Civil Rights laws were necessary to fulfill that obligation. Furthermore, Paul's interpretation of the Constitution is his own opinion. That opinion differs quite markedly from the opinions expressed by those who drafted the Constitution and argued for its adoption.
 
This is exactly why Ron Paul running on a national ticket for President would be a complete and total disaster and his supporters and he try to nuance this very issue. I wonder how many Americans would accept the rational that "standing for liberty" means allowing racial discrimination in public places?

We had this very debate over fifty years ago. The nation has moved on....... at least most of us have.

I've read the entire blog to date. And though you were unacceptably berated by a fellow libertarian which you rose above (kudos to you), I'd like to continue the conversation, quite a bit more civilly, if you're willing. Because I don't think you're intentionally passing along false information, but in many things that you say you represent the intent of the libertarian party falsely.

i.e. "the rational that "standing for liberty" means allowing racial discrimination in public places?" - that's not the rational at all. replace 'public' with 'private' and you'll be spot on, but the difference is huge. As far as public places, i.e. tax-payer supported courthouse, or the post office, or the local parks and their water fountains, busses, etc then their can be no separation due to race. All men are created equal. We're truly not trying to provide a backdoor to racism. Racism is unacceptable. But so is the intrusion of the government into our private property legislating our moral compasses. There is a way to have the best of both worlds: no racism and no national government intervention. Local governments and/or state governments could deny those 'rights' to private company owners. I don't think many libertarians would have a qualm over that fundamentally. They could argue that it's an intrusion on the rights, blah blah, but they cannot deny that it is the right of the state and local governments to create such laws. The issue isn't just semantics. The progression in the size of national government needs to be fought every step of the way.
 
I've read the entire blog to date. And though you were unacceptably berated by a fellow libertarian which you rose above (kudos to you), I'd like to continue the conversation, quite a bit more civilly, if you're willing. Because I don't think you're intentionally passing along false information, but in many things that you say you represent the intent of the libertarian party falsely.

i.e. "the rational that "standing for liberty" means allowing racial discrimination in public places?" - that's not the rational at all. replace 'public' with 'private' and you'll be spot on, but the difference is huge. As far as public places, i.e. tax-payer supported courthouse, or the post office, or the local parks and their water fountains, busses, etc then their can be no separation due to race. All men are created equal. We're truly not trying to provide a backdoor to racism. Racism is unacceptable. But so is the intrusion of the government into our private property legislating our moral compasses. There is a way to have the best of both worlds: no racism and no national government intervention. Local governments and/or state governments could deny those 'rights' to private company owners. I don't think many libertarians would have a qualm over that fundamentally. They could argue that it's an intrusion on the rights, blah blah, but they cannot deny that it is the right of the state and local governments to create such laws. The issue isn't just semantics. The progression in the size of national government needs to be fought every step of the way.

Fred - thank you for the kind words. I think the difference here is that some see a blurring of lines that others see as clear walls and dividers between what is truly public and what is truly private. Let us take the private business that I just patronized a few moments ago. It is a bakery in my small town and I sometimes stop there near the end of my daily run to bring home a bagel or bread. They are open to the public. They have a sign that tells all WELCOME. They have another sign which announces what hours they are open to the public. They sit on a public road and off a public sidewalk. Yes, it is privately owned and not publicly owned. However, they could not be in business if they were not in a public area and they have announced that they are open to the public with their signs.

So I think these lines are not as clear or as delineated as some may paint them to be.

You talks about rights. And in this case what we have is a balance of different rights and our society made a determination that one trumps another. Reasonable people can disagree with that and that is fine. But that was done as a society and as a people and that is part of our system.
 
Tolerating a universal right of business owners to discriminate against potential customers is a lose-lose proposition. It undermines the economic basis of conducting business, including profit, by injecting conflicting parameters. It undercuts the principle of equal opportunity.

Consider two situations. First, discrimination by the majority against a minority group. Second, discrimination by a minority group against the majority. The former case is very damaging to the minority because most of the leverage rests with the majority. The minority has few alternatives. Bargaining power rests with suppliers/sellers not the customer. In contrast, discrimination against the majority has a lesser impact on the majority, because the majority possesses the leverage from having a chance to conduct business with itself. Bargaining power rests with the customer (majority).

Indeed, Federalist No. 10 is no accident. The Founders understood the inherent danger that existed with factions and that such a faction could even be comprised of a majority. That's one of the strong arguments they made for Republican government. Civil Rights laws, even as they slightly infringe on a narrow right of discrimination in a limited number of circumstances, enhances the overall freedom of the public at large, because discrimination infringes on the freedoms of those who are targeted.

In Federalist No. 51, written by James Madison or Alexander Hamilton, the argument for protecting civil rights was sharpened:

If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself. A dependence on the people is, no doubt, the primary control on the government; but experience has taught mankind the necessity of auxiliary precautions. This policy of supplying, by opposite and rival interests, the defect of better motives, might be traced through the whole system of human affairs, private as well as public...

It is of great importance in a republic not only to guard the society against the oppression of its rulers, but to guard one part of the society against the injustice of the other part. Different interests necessarily exist in different classes of citizens. If a majority be united by a common interest, the rights of the minority will be insecure... Whilst all authority in it will be derived from and dependent on the society, the society itself will be broken into so many parts, interests, and classes of citizens, that the rights of individuals, or of the minority, will be in little danger from interested combinations of the majority. In a free government the security for civil rights must be the same as that for religious rights... In a society under the forms of which the stronger faction can readily unite and oppress the weaker, anarchy may as truly be said to reign as in a state of nature, where the weaker individual is not secured against the violence of the stronger; and as, in the latter state, even the stronger individuals are prompted, by the uncertainty of their condition, to submit to a government which may protect the weak as well as themselves; so, in the former state, will the more powerful factions or parties be gradnally induced, by a like motive, to wish for a government which will protect all parties, the weaker as well as the more powerful... In the extended republic of the United States, and among the great variety of interests, parties, and sects which it embraces, a coalition of a majority of the whole society could seldom take place on any other principles than those of justice and the general good; whilst there being thus less danger to a minor from the will of a major party, there must be less pretext, also, to provide for the security of the former, by introducing into the government a will not dependent on the latter, or, in other words, a will independent of the society itself.


The Civil Rights laws, which in effect 'control the effects of faction' to use Madison's words from Federalist No. 10 are not only constitutional, they are also consistent with the role of government as envisioned by the Founders. Republican government had a basic responsibility to protect civil rights. Republican government, though the powers granted to it in the Constitution, offered the strongest prospect for doing so.

Paul likes to label himself as a "constitutionalist." However, Paul's ideology is vastly different from what the Founders had in mind when devising the Constitution given the existence of their writings e.g., the Federalist papers. Indeed, Paul's ideology would amplify the concerns raised by Tocqueville that the American form of government might yet result in a "tyranny of the majority."

In sum, civil rights were conceived as a basic obligation of government by the United States' Founders. The Civil Rights laws were necessary to fulfill that obligation. Furthermore, Paul's interpretation of the Constitution is his own opinion. That opinion differs quite markedly from the opinions expressed by those who drafted the Constitution and argued for its adoption.

The purpose of the constitution is to limit the size of the federal government (obvious). The bargaining power of the people which you so clearly laid out is exactly what Ron Paul and libertarians ARE trying to protect. I often hear these well laid out arguments and feel like we're on the same side; that we have the same intents. It's how we achieve those intents that we differ so much.

Unless the powers are written into the constitution, the powers lie with the people and the state. It's within the state and local government that the bargaining power of each individual is the greatest. Where inevitable factions that do occur at ALL levels of government will have the least impact. We are in the greatest danger when these factions have absolute power over the entire national government. So even when a 'good' faction of eliminating racism controls the national government, I have to fight it. Because if/when the tide turns to a more negative outcome, I don't want the national government to have so much power.

I want to avoid the tyranny of the majority as do you. But it will and does happen. I'd prefer it to happen at the state level than the federal level, however, where it can be more easily over-turned. All of this being said, I've always been on the line when it comes to Civil Rights Laws at the national level. The only reason that I tend to push it towards the states is to prevent the slide down the slippery slope. But I do fear what could happen in some states...
 
The purpose of the constitution is to limit the size of the federal government (obvious).

I only have a minute now but I wanted to post regarding your opening sentence. The Preamble tells us what the purpose of the Constitution is

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

That goes well beyond the idea that it is to limit the size of the federal government.
 
The purpose of the constitution is to limit the size of the federal government (obvious). The bargaining power of the people which you so clearly laid out is exactly what Ron Paul and libertarians ARE trying to protect. I often hear these well laid out arguments and feel like we're on the same side; that we have the same intents. It's how we achieve those intents that we differ so much.

I don't doubt Paul's sincerity. The means differ. Clearly, also there are overlaps between what the Founders envisioned and what Paul desires, but there are also differences. A role for government in protecting civil rights is one such area of difference.

Unless the powers are written into the constitution, the powers lie with the people and the state. It's within the state and local government that the bargaining power of each individual is the greatest. Where inevitable factions that do occur at ALL levels of government will have the least impact.

The extent of the Federal Government's powers lie between Article I, Section 8 and Article I, Section 9, not Article I, Section 8 exclusively. Indeed had the powers resided only in Section 8, Section 9 would have been unnecessary.

In Federalist No. 45, Madison wrote:

If the new Constitution be examined with accuracy and candor, it will be found that the change which it proposes consists much less in the addition of NEW POWERS to the Union, than in the invigoration of its ORIGINAL POWERS. The regulation of commerce, it is true, is a new power; but that seems to be an addition which few oppose, and from which no apprehensions are entertained. The powers relating to war and peace, armies and fleets, treaties and finance, with the other more considerable powers, are all vested in the existing Congress by the articles of Confederation. The proposed change does not enlarge these powers; it only substitutes a more effectual mode of administering them. The change relating to taxation may be regarded as the most important; and yet the present Congress have as complete authority to REQUIRE of the States indefinite supplies of money for the common defense and general welfare, as the future Congress will have to require them of individual citizens; and the latter will be no more bound than the States themselves have been, to pay the quotas respectively taxed on them.[/quote]

From well before the nation's Constitution to the present (and undoubtedly well into the future, as well), the debate over the extent of the federal government's role in providing for the "general welfare" will continue. The Constitution is written to allow for flexibility in that area. At the same time, it also contains explicit language aimed at protecting certain basic rights, among others. The Bill of Rights is not all-inclusive. The Founders recognized that many other rights existed and were, in fact, worried that a Bill of Rights could create the perception that the basic rights were limited to those specified in the Bill of Rights.

The bottom line is that both in the case of enumerated powers (balanced out by Article I, Section 9) and the Bill of Rights, the lists were examples. They were not all-inclusive. Not surprisingly, the U.S. Supreme Court, the ultimate arbiter of a law's constitutionality, has consistently ruled toward the more flexible idea that neither the powers listed nor rights specified are all-inclusive. Instead, society continues to debate the role of the federal government and such debate is healthy. Too little authority is not healthy. Too much is not healthy. Striking the balance is key and no consensus exists on the optimal balance, hence the debate goes on.

We are in the greatest danger when these factions have absolute power over the entire national government. So even when a 'good' faction of eliminating racism controls the national government, I have to fight it. Because if/when the tide turns to a more negative outcome, I don't want the national government to have so much power.

Power concentrated in the hands of a few is a major problem, inside and outside of government. The Founders understood and recognized the dangers of concentrated power. Hence, they tried to create robust checks-and-balances, among other things.

Also, it should be noted that the Civil Rights law aims to protect equal opportunity. It does not aim to impose constraints on such matters as private thought. Enlightened societies, though, seek to instill virtues such as tolerance. Tolerance is consistent with the basic premise that one should not seek to undermine another's individual freedom so long as that person does not use his freedom to infringe on one's own freedom. That is a classical liberal idea and a good one (IMO).

I want to avoid the tyranny of the majority as do you. But it will and does happen. I'd prefer it to happen at the state level than the federal level, however, where it can be more easily over-turned. All of this being said, I've always been on the line when it comes to Civil Rights Laws at the national level. The only reason that I tend to push it towards the states is to prevent the slide down the slippery slope. But I do fear what could happen in some states...

I don't doubt your motives whatsoever. The unfortunate reality is that when it came to the issue of Civil Rights, reliance on the States did not lead to a wholly satisfactory outcome some 180 years after the Constitution was adopted. Hence, consistent with what Madison and Hamilton envisioned with respect to the importance of Civil Rights (they equated them as equal to religious rights, which are protected in the First Amendment), the federal government ultimately adopted a law to protect civil rights on a nationwide basis.
 
I don't doubt Paul's sincerity. The means differ. Clearly, also there are overlaps between what the Founders envisioned and what Paul desires, but there are also differences. A role for government in protecting civil rights is one such area of difference.



The extent of the Federal Government's powers lie between Article I, Section 8 and Article I, Section 9, not Article I, Section 8 exclusively. Indeed had the powers resided only in Section 8, Section 9 would have been unnecessary.

In Federalist No. 45, Madison wrote:

If the new Constitution be examined with accuracy and candor, it will be found that the change which it proposes consists much less in the addition of NEW POWERS to the Union, than in the invigoration of its ORIGINAL POWERS. The regulation of commerce, it is true, is a new power; but that seems to be an addition which few oppose, and from which no apprehensions are entertained. The powers relating to war and peace, armies and fleets, treaties and finance, with the other more considerable powers, are all vested in the existing Congress by the articles of Confederation. The proposed change does not enlarge these powers; it only substitutes a more effectual mode of administering them. The change relating to taxation may be regarded as the most important; and yet the present Congress have as complete authority to REQUIRE of the States indefinite supplies of money for the common defense and general welfare, as the future Congress will have to require them of individual citizens; and the latter will be no more bound than the States themselves have been, to pay the quotas respectively taxed on them.

From well before the nation's Constitution to the present (and undoubtedly well into the future, as well), the debate over the extent of the federal government's role in providing for the "general welfare" will continue. The Constitution is written to allow for flexibility in that area. At the same time, it also contains explicit language aimed at protecting certain basic rights, among others. The Bill of Rights is not all-inclusive. The Founders recognized that many other rights existed and were, in fact, worried that a Bill of Rights could create the perception that the basic rights were limited to those specified in the Bill of Rights.

The bottom line is that both in the case of enumerated powers (balanced out by Article I, Section 9) and the Bill of Rights, the lists were examples. They were not all-inclusive. Not surprisingly, the U.S. Supreme Court, the ultimate arbiter of a law's constitutionality, has consistently ruled toward the more flexible idea that neither the powers listed nor rights specified are all-inclusive. Instead, society continues to debate the role of the federal government and such debate is healthy. Too little authority is not healthy. Too much is not healthy. Striking the balance is key and no consensus exists on the optimal balance, hence the debate goes on.



Power concentrated in the hands of a few is a major problem, inside and outside of government. The Founders understood and recognized the dangers of concentrated power. Hence, they tried to create robust checks-and-balances, among other things.

Also, it should be noted that the Civil Rights law aims to protect equal opportunity. It does not aim to impose constraints on such matters as private thought. Enlightened societies, though, seek to instill virtues such as tolerance. Tolerance is consistent with the basic premise that one should not seek to undermine another's individual freedom so long as that person does not use his freedom to infringe on one's own freedom. That is a classical liberal idea and a good one (IMO).



I don't doubt your motives whatsoever. The unfortunate reality is that when it came to the issue of Civil Rights, reliance on the States did not lead to a wholly satisfactory outcome some 180 years after the Constitution was adopted. Hence, consistent with what Madison and Hamilton envisioned with respect to the importance of Civil Rights (they equated them as equal to religious rights, which are protected in the First Amendment), the federal government ultimately adopted a law to protect civil rights on a nationwide basis.


I've not even read all of the federalist papers. Only a few actually. Your being so well-versed on them as to pick out the relevant points is impressive.

I am against limitless national power and I believe we would all agree. And though we could argue over whether or not the constitution is all-inclusive (or perhaps gone too far already) in what the ideal government ought to do or debate the definition of general welfare, I think the true problem lies when we amend the constitution via SCOTUS. What would be the point of the 10th amendment if the interpretations of the many clauses in article 1 section 8 could be stretched to be all encompassing? I may even support an amendment to the constitution giving Congress the ability to legislate Civil Rights privately and publicly.

The line that is most striking in your response is the explanation that enlightened societies instill virtues such as tolerance. Instill is not the same as legislate. Redistribution of wealth via legislation is not the same as promoting charitable contributions via tax deductions. One is instilling virtues. The other is denying a person their rights. More to the topic of Civil Rights: tolerance is important. To legislate it to support civil rights is on the border of being intolerant of those with different views (though it's on the line because those view are obviously wrong to me). Which is why an amendment would be ideal. So that the right of the government is black and white (no pun intended).
 
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Yes, but seeing as Paul is a republican, I have a sneaking suspicion it was because of personal convictions not political gain.

Paul is a RINO, not a republican. watch him be the bitter little boy who takes his bat and ball home and run as an Independent when he does not fare well anywhere other than Iowa. He will be the single factor in Obama being re-elected because he will split the vote. He is a nasty Troll.
 
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