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Ron Paul - Anti-gay, anti-women, abortion is murder.

In response to a different message, I don't believe that 40% of women believe a girl/woman should be banned an abortion in the instance of rape and incest.

Only 15% of Americans believe abortion should be banned in all instances.

http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm


"Life begins at conception" bans all abortions. So it is a particularly relevant issue in relation to Ron Paul in relation to voters.
 
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As a moderately pro-choice person, I don't see anything inherently anti-libertarian about being pro-life. If you take the position of Paul and Ikari, the fetus is a living person with the same rights as anyone else. The mother might have a right to liberty, but this would not justify her killing her 3 year-old if she felt she couldn't handle him or her. The same principle applies within the womb. Personally, I think there is a difference between a zygote and a eight-month-old fetus, but the other side's position is not inherently authoritarian.

However, Paul's position on abortion does match mine in one respect, leave it up to the states. There was no Constitutional basis for the Roe v Wade decision. The Court used the concept of substantive due process to justify their ruling. Substantive due process is a way of using the 14th Amendment to conjure rights almost out of thin air, and while liberals may like it for legalizing abortions, the same exact procedure was used to strike down minimum wage laws and other state-level economic regulations that liberals favor. I may favor legalized abortions and oppose minimum wage laws, but I also value the Constitution. If you can accept the Court making up Constitutional rights that you like, you must also accept them doing so with Constitutional rights that you do not believe exist
 
Paul's position on abortion does match mine in one respect, leave it up to the states.

I picked out just one line of your message because the subject of abortion is the biggest example of a 100% Ron Paul flipflop. For decades since Roe V Wade, Representative Paul claimed that the federal government had no jurisdiction over abortion either way so as a "strict constitutionalist" the federal government including the federal courts could have laws on the topic of abortion.
This did not sit well with the Republicans in his district and particularly with national Republicans as abortion became the core issue of the Evangelicals. So Ron Paul did a 100% reversal on himself - meaning also the on the constitution. Now Ron Paul's stance is that abortion IS a issue for the Federal government. His exact words:

"On the right-to-life issue, I believe, I’m a real stickler for civil liberties. It’s academic to talk about civil liberties if you don’t talk about the true protection of all life. So if you are going to protect liberty, you have to protect the life of the unborn just as well.

I have a Bill in congress I certainly would promote and push as president, called the Sanctity of Life Amendment. We establish the principle that life begins at conception. And someone says, ‘oh why are you saying that?’ and I say, ‘well, that’s not a political statement -- that’s a scientific statement that I’m making
!“

Source: Speeches to 2008 Conservative Political Action Conference Feb 7, 2008

In short, Ron Paul flip-flopped now claim the abortion issues is up to the federal government to decide the issue.
 
Begun? Joko's been doing this for a month at least if not longer. His hatred and spin against Ron Paul is like a crazy bizzaro world Ron Paul fan.

Why does criticism = "hate" in your mind?
 
I picked out just one line of your message because the subject of abortion is the biggest example of a 100% Ron Paul flipflop. For decades since Roe V Wade, Representative Paul claimed that the federal government had no jurisdiction over abortion either way so as a "strict constitutionalist" the federal government including the federal courts could have laws on the topic of abortion.
This did not sit well with the Republicans in his district and particularly with national Republicans as abortion became the core issue of the Evangelicals. So Ron Paul did a 100% reversal on himself - meaning also the on the constitution. Now Ron Paul's stance is that abortion IS a issue for the Federal government. His exact words:

"On the right-to-life issue, I believe, I’m a real stickler for civil liberties. It’s academic to talk about civil liberties if you don’t talk about the true protection of all life. So if you are going to protect liberty, you have to protect the life of the unborn just as well.

I have a Bill in congress I certainly would promote and push as president, called the Sanctity of Life Amendment. We establish the principle that life begins at conception. And someone says, ‘oh why are you saying that?’ and I say, ‘well, that’s not a political statement -- that’s a scientific statement that I’m making
!“

Source: Speeches to 2008 Conservative Political Action Conference Feb 7, 2008

In short, Ron Paul flip-flopped now claim the abortion issues is up to the federal government to decide the issue.

this has already been explained to you as to how it fits in with a view that one of the federal government's main job is the protection and proliferation of freedom and liberty.
 
JOKO - I read Jason's comments on page 2 of this topic where he clarifies your accusations. Could you please respond to him? Are the incidences he sites what you are referring to? In which case, you are just being intentionally misleading. If those aren't the cases you are basing your accusations on, then please site the votes you are referring to. Your integrity is being called into question.
 
With only the exception of one moderator recently and one other Paul supporter, otherwise Ron Paul supporters do not respond to issue challenges. A few may cite Ron Paul's statement or a link to a video as some fasion of proof.

Ron Paul flipflopped over his history on the topic of abortion and more than once. Yet no Ron Paul supporter has yet to admit Ron Paul did so.

In general, if I cite sources, which usually I do, the only response of Paul's supporters is either 1.) then ignore it or 2.) divert to a different topic.

The other matter is Ron Paul can exactly 100k% contradict himself - and his supporters basically say "yes, master" to it. Ron Paul authoring and voting for the Partial Birth Abortion ban (a federal law) and proposing the FEDERAL government declare that "life begins at conception" is the most absolute anti-abortion federal law possible - as it would convey full civil, legal and human rights to the fetus. In the same statement in which he advocated the federal goverment taking an absolute and no exceptions stance against abortion - then says he thinks states should decide abortion issues.

That is an absolute 100% absurd contradiction and the most fundamental of lies. Yet to his followers his claiming the federal government should totally decide the abortion issues - saying that is because he believes the federal government should have no authority whatsoever - see that as making perfect sense because Ron Paul said it.

There is no rational discussion with a cult groupie and it is that manner of reasoning for many (not all) Ron Paul supporters. They will distort any logic and any collection of facts to make Ron Paul exactly who each one of them wish him to be.

So why should I bother to re-state links and reasoning to topics over and voer to just be diverted and otherwise ignored. I have no obligation to prove up my integrity to anyone anyway.
 
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Begun? Joko's been doing this for a month at least if not longer. His hatred and spin against Ron Paul is like a crazy bizzaro world Ron Paul fan. They're amazingly similar save for he hates Paul rather than loves him.

He also falls into the standard fallacy that pro-choicers tend to do, which is to assume their view is the only CORRECT view and that anyone who views differently HATES WOMEN. They must think there are a **** ton of self hating women out there.

That was spot-on.

:damn
 
With only the exception of one moderator recently and one other Paul supporter, otherwise Ron Paul supporters do not respond to issue challenges. A few may cite Ron Paul's statement or a link to a video as some fasion of proof.

Ron Paul flipflopped over his history on the topic of abortion and more than once. Yet no Ron Paul supporter has yet to admit Ron Paul did so.

In general, if I cite sources, which usually I do, the only response of Paul's supporters is either 1.) then ignore it or 2.) divert to a different topic.

So why allow topics to just be diverted and otherwise ignored. I have no obligation to prove up my integrity to anyone.

My support is for RP based on what I know of RP. I have no ego-stake in RP's record, however, and if he weren't the politician that I believe him to be, I would want to know it before I vote for him. I was simply asking a favor, which I assume wouldn't be too difficult (if you had such strong accusations against Paul, I'd assume you'd easily be able to back them up). So between your current comment and Jason's response, for which you refuse to respond to because you don't think anyone would listen (which of course begs the question why you bothered to create this topic...), I'm going to have to say you're stumped and just spreading rumors.

Which the question then becomes, what are you so afraid of that you are intentionally misleading people? In what way is RP threatening you?
 
I picked out just one line of your message because the subject of abortion is the biggest example of a 100% Ron Paul flipflop. For decades since Roe V Wade, Representative Paul claimed that the federal government had no jurisdiction over abortion either way so as a "strict constitutionalist" the federal government including the federal courts could have laws on the topic of abortion.
This did not sit well with the Republicans in his district and particularly with national Republicans as abortion became the core issue of the Evangelicals. So Ron Paul did a 100% reversal on himself - meaning also the on the constitution. Now Ron Paul's stance is that abortion IS a issue for the Federal government. His exact words:

"On the right-to-life issue, I believe, I’m a real stickler for civil liberties. It’s academic to talk about civil liberties if you don’t talk about the true protection of all life. So if you are going to protect liberty, you have to protect the life of the unborn just as well.

I have a Bill in congress I certainly would promote and push as president, called the Sanctity of Life Amendment. We establish the principle that life begins at conception. And someone says, ‘oh why are you saying that?’ and I say, ‘well, that’s not a political statement -- that’s a scientific statement that I’m making
!“

Source: Speeches to 2008 Conservative Political Action Conference Feb 7, 2008

In short, Ron Paul flip-flopped now claim the abortion issues is up to the federal government to decide the issue.

From a legal standpoint, what would this have actually done? It may establish that life begins at conception, but that does not mean that it would be automatically protected. People can be legally killed in some circumstances such as: self-defense, pulling life support on a loved one, and executions. The law could not do anything to illegalize abortion. It was a moral declaration and nothing more.

As for the partial-birth abortion act, I personally see a big difference betweeen destroying a fetus that is a few months in and destroying a being that is almost completely born. One could make a case that the 14th Amendment's protections extend to partial birth abortees and not other ones.
 
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My support is for RP based on what I know of RP. I have no ego-stake in RP's record, however, and if he weren't the politician that I believe him to be, I would want to know it before I vote for him. I was simply asking a favor, which I assume wouldn't be too difficult (if you had such strong accusations against Paul, I'd assume you'd easily be able to back them up). So between your current comment and Jason's response, for which you refuse to respond to because you don't think anyone would listen (which of course begs the question why you bothered to create this topic...), I'm going to have to say you're stumped and just spreading rumors.

Which the question then becomes, what are you so afraid of that you are intentionally misleading people? In what way is RP threatening you?

He wrote in another thread that Paul voted for the Iraq war and now against it (joko's flip-flop argument).... that should say enough. Most people know at the least that Ron voted against the Iraq war resolution in 2002.

btw im back home. :-D
 
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Say something enough times and people believe it. But Ron Paul doesn't vote as he says.

How many times has Ron Paul said the federal government should stay out of marriage? YET Congress is in essence the government for Washington DC, and Ron Paul voted that as a federal order gays are banned from adopting children.

WORTH REPEATING: Ron Paul voted to ban gays from adopting children.

How's that for non-federal intervention? The federal government will ban you from adopting children?

Ron Paul supports "Don't ask, Don't tell," meaning known gays removed from the military. In his logic was some drivel about how rights come from "the Creator" and then rambles of in his opposition to separation of church-and-state.

Although Ron Paul raged against Rowe V Wade claiming the federal government has no jurisdiction over abortion for decades, he turned around and sponsored legislation to outlaw abortions and now - seeking the Republican nomination - declares that life begins at conception and that any state that wants to outlaw ALL abortions may do so.

Ron Paul claims that abortion is CRIMINAL MURDER and wants citizenship rights to BEGIN AT CONCEPTION.

The reason he has that view is because the government staying out of people's lives doesn't apply to women. Or gays. When it comes to children. If you're gay, he says the government SHALL ban you from children and if you are a woman you are banned from not having children. The most radical of all when it comes to government control over having - or not - children. This, in his view, is singularly the government's decision based upon his religious beliefs, that he wants and attempts over and again to make federal law in any way possible. On this, Ron Paul is the ultimate government control freak. Total government power. Over being a parent or not.

Why does anyone like Ron Paul? - Ashley F. Miller - Open Salon

Why does anyone like Ron Paul? - Ashley F. Miller - Open Salon

Despite the fact that he thinks the education department should be dismantled, he also thinks that public funds should pay for private Christian educations and supports a constitutional amendment in favor of school prayer. Again, not a libertarian stance at all. So while he claims the government spends too much, he thinks that paying the expenses of Christian schools should be by the government.

Not Jewish Schools. Not Muslim or Buddhist schools. Christian schools.
He has a somewhat complex view on abortion in that he, like murder, should be tried and controlled at the state level, not the federal one. That said, he has voted repeatedly for national bills that promote the pro-life cause and introduced a bill that would say that life begins at conception.

This conveys all legal and citizenship rights to the fetus. Thus, an abortion would be premediated first degree murder in his view, though he wants states to prosecution. In many, that means the death penalty. It also means there could be NO exceptions allowing abortion including rape or the life of the mother as the fetus has equal full legal and citizen rights.

He voted not to authorize embryonic stem cell research multiple times.

He has a 0% by NARAL, meaning he votes 100% against abortion rights.

He voted yes on the Stupak Amendment to prevent health insurance companies from offering abortion coverage.

Voted to prevent funding from going to schools that make the morning after pill available and to provide funding for abstinence only education.

He cosponsored a bill to take funds from a needy family benefit program to go to support non-governmental groups that counsel people not to have abortions.

Again, how is this not federal interference? What is Libertarian about any of that? Where is constraint on the federal government? The right of individuals to decide rather than government?

Yep, he is a conflicted man. He thinks he is a libertarian, but he still wants control of your bodily functions including your bedroom, your uterus and your urine. (although I do think he is a bit more "liberal" on drug issues) like a Republican.
 
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This is cherry-picking issues to deter liberals and independents from identifying with Paul. Here is a much broader picture of Paul. He's not my cup of tea, but he is far better qualified than most of the GOP field IMO. YMMV
Ron Paul on the Issues
 
He wrote in another thread that Paul voted for the Iraq war and now against it (joko's flip-flop argument).... that should say enough. Most people know at the least that Ron voted against the Iraq war resolution in 2002.

btw im back home. :-D

He flipflopped on Afghanistan. He acknowledged in the debate he had done so, but claimed that everyone had tricked him or he hadn't actually read the resolution (like he didn't read his own newsletters?)

However, if I wrote Iraq it was my mistake.
 
He flipflopped on Afghanistan. He acknowledged in the debate he had done so, but claimed that everyone had tricked him or he hadn't actually read the resolution (like he didn't read his own newsletters?)

However, if I wrote Iraq it was my mistake.

Perhaps you can quote that then? I've asked you for evidence a few times and you have ignored it. Perhaps if you wish to continue these accusations and attacks on Ron Paul you can at least back up a few of them?
 
Calling the September 11, 2001, attacks an act of "air piracy", Paul introduced the Marque and Reprisal Act of 2001.

Letters of marque and reprisal, authorized by article I, section 8 of the Constitution, would have targeted "specific terrorist suspects" instead of invoking war against a foreign state. Paul reintroduced this legislation as the Marque and Reprisal Act of 2007. He voted with the majority for the original Authorization for Use of Military Force Against "Terrorists" within Afghanistan.

It was pretty much to kill Bin Laden inside Afgan when he was there. Paul wants for the troops to come home. No clear purpose as to why we're there i believe.
 
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Perhaps you can quote that then? I've asked you for evidence a few times and you have ignored it. Perhaps if you wish to continue these accusations and attacks on Ron Paul you can at least back up a few of them?

Ron Paul acknowledged it himself in the debate. However, his supporters tend to each create Ron Paul in their own image and ignore anything that contradicts that image. In general, I have provided more links and documentation than anyone else on these topics. Ron Paul supporters ignore those they can not respond and instead cherry pick ones they claim there is no proof of.
 
,
Calling the September 11, 2001, attacks an act of "air piracy", Paul introduced the Marque and Reprisal Act of 2001.

Letters of marque and reprisal, authorized by article I, section 8 of the Constitution, would have targeted "specific terrorist suspects" instead of invoking war against a foreign state. Paul reintroduced this legislation as the Marque and Reprisal Act of 2007. He voted with the majority for the original Authorization for Use of Military Force Against "Terrorists" within Afghanistan.

It was pretty much to kill Bin Laden inside Afgan when he was there. Paul wants for the troops to come home. No clear purpose as to why we're there i believe.

This is another flipflop of Ron Paul. In that Act, he specifically called for the taking of Osama Bin Laden "dead or alive" and he did not specify any limitations on which country that would be:

Language from the Act he proposed:

"...to employ all means reasonably necessary to seize outside the geographic boundaries of the United States and its territories the person and property of Osama bin Laden, of any al Qaeda co-conspirator, and of any conspirator with Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda who are responsible for the air piratical aggressions and depredations perpetrated upon the United States of America on September 11, 2001, and for any planned future air piratical aggressions and depredations or other acts of war upon the United States of America and her people."

"...for the capture, alive or dead, of Osama bin Laden or any other al Qaeda conspirator responsible for the act of air piracy upon the United States on September 11, 2001, under the authority of any letter of marque or reprisal issued under this Act."

Ron Paul in his Act wanted to use mercenaries, not troops. However, the only geographic limitation his act imposed was outside the territories of the United States.

When it turned out to ultimately be "dead," Ron Paul criticized the action saying he would not have done it if he were President. In his view, because he was in Pakistan, Bin Laden was in a safe haven - like kids playing chase and Pakistan is Bin Ladin's safe "home base?" That is a complete reversal of his prior proposed ACT of taking Bin Laden "dead or alive" ANYWHERE but within the USA and USA territories. Pakistan is neither.

Ron Paul's political history across time as a career politician is one of continuous flip-flopping.
 
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Ron Paul acknowledged it himself in the debate. However, his supporters tend to each create Ron Paul in their own image and ignore anything that contradicts that image. In general, I have provided more links and documentation than anyone else on these topics. Ron Paul supporters ignore those they can not respond and instead cherry pick ones they claim there is no proof of.

Ron Paul voted for The Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists (Pub.L. 107-40, 115 Stat. 224, enacted September 18, 2001 = the basis of military action in Afghanistan.

Ron Paul supporters will often try to deny the truth about Paul. When presented, they will then shift or ignore. Ron Paul's later explanation is that he didn't think the President would do what he did in Afghanistan and that he had been tricked to voting for it. He said that in the last debate also.

THIS is what Ron Paul voted for, exactly:

This joint resolution may be cited as the 'Authorization for Use of Military Force'.




Section 2 - Authorization For Use of United States Armed Forces(a) IN GENERAL- That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.

(b) War Powers Resolution Requirements-

(1) SPECIFIC STATUTORY AUTHORIZATION- Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution."


Texas Republican Representative Ron Paul voted to give W Bush total and unrestricted power to use any and all military action against any country on earth and any and all military power anyway the President wanted against ANY country, ANY organization and ANY person.

NOW he claims he was always against the war and some of his supporters accept that as accurate. They rage, furiously deny it ever happened and demand proof - even when Paul himself acknowledged in the recent debates.
 
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,

This is another flipflop of Ron Paul. In that Act, he specifically called for the taking of Osama Bin Laden "dead or alive" and he did not specify any limitations on which country that would be:

Language from the Act he proposed:

"...to employ all means reasonably necessary to seize outside the geographic boundaries of the United States and its territories the person and property of Osama bin Laden, of any al Qaeda co-conspirator, and of any conspirator with Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda who are responsible for the air piratical aggressions and depredations perpetrated upon the United States of America on September 11, 2001, and for any planned future air piratical aggressions and depredations or other acts of war upon the United States of America and her people."

"...for the capture, alive or dead, of Osama bin Laden or any other al Qaeda conspirator responsible for the act of air piracy upon the United States on September 11, 2001, under the authority of any letter of marque or reprisal issued under this Act."

Ron Paul in his Act wanted to use mercenaries, not troops. However, the only geographic limitation his act imposed was outside the territories of the United States.

When it turned out to ultimately be "dead," Ron Paul criticized the action saying he would not have done it if he were President. In his view, because he was in Pakistan, Bin Laden was in a safe haven - like kids playing chase and Pakistan is Bin Ladin's safe "home base?" That is a complete reversal of his prior proposed ACT of taking Bin Laden "dead or alive" ANYWHERE but within the USA and USA territories. Pakistan is neither.

Ron Paul's political history across time as a career politician is one of continuous flip-flopping.

This would be a better argument had Paul's bill passed. Since it didn't, one could still consider Pakistan to not be a safe haven.
 
The OP has clearly shown that he is perfectly willing to simply make stuff up concerning Paul so I have no idea why anyone would even bother debating anyone like that.
 
The OP has clearly shown that he is perfectly willing to simply make stuff up concerning Paul so I have no idea why anyone would even bother debating anyone like that.

Your's is the most typical final response of Ron Paulites and this the typical evolution of debating Ron Paul.

1. Ron Paul supports flood threads and messages of his platitudes and praises, while viciously sneering and attacking other Republicans.
2. When flipflops, bizarre stances and extreme unpopular stances of Ron Paul are presented in response, they declare it all a lie demanding proof - citing Ron Paul's campaign materials themselves.
3. When links are provided to backup the claims against Paul, they claim all those sources are lying and are all part of the grand conspiracy against their hero Ron Paul.
4. When then actual Bills presented by Ron Paul himself, actual votes Ron Paul cast, Ron Paul's own words verbatum, and the verbatum language of his Bills and those he voted for, they then totally ignore all those absolute facts and then just go back to #1, claiming it all false and refusing to discuss it.

While there are exceptions of course, most Ron Paul hardcore supporters are for him as cult followers of a religous cult leader akin to a faith healer. It can be documented that faith healer is a fraud, that the people supposedly healed really were just ringers put on by the ministry, and even picking up the secret radio communications between the faith healer and the actors plotting it all out, but most the congregation will still remain 100% loyal, even more militantly so, and put their cult leader minister than into the persecuted Christ-role.

All those elements exist in the Ron Paul campaign, including his Christ-persecution claims for which he and his followers continually claim he is being persecuted, that everyone is prejudiced against him and that there is a vast conspiracy against their cult leader. Sadly, there is something in human dna for which a certain percentage of people MUST find someone to the unquestioned leader of their counter-culture flock for which they desperately and absolutely much devote their life to being then one of the sheep of that flock.

Again, not all favoring Ron Paul are of such nature, but the majority of hardcore followers are. The sequence of this debate is just one of dozens and dozens of such evolutions in 2008 and 2012 I've seen on forums.
 
Your's is the most typical final response of Ron Paulites and this the typical evolution of debating Ron Paul.

1. Ron Paul supports flood threads and messages of his platitudes and praises, while viciously sneering and attacking other Republicans.
2. When flipflops, bizarre stances and extreme unpopular stances of Ron Paul are presented in response, they declare it all a lie demanding proof - citing Ron Paul's campaign materials themselves.
3. When links are provided to backup the claims against Paul, they claim all those sources are lying and are all part of the grand conspiracy against their hero Ron Paul.
4. When then actual Bills presented by Ron Paul himself, actual votes Ron Paul cast, Ron Paul's own words verbatum, and the verbatum language of his Bills and those he voted for, they then totally ignore all those absolute facts and then just go back to #1, claiming it all false and refusing to discuss it.

While there are exceptions of course, most Ron Paul hardcore supporters are for him as cult followers of a religous cult leader akin to a faith healer. It can be documented that faith healer is a fraud, that the people supposedly healed really were just ringers put on by the ministry, and even picking up the secret radio communications between the faith healer and the actors plotting it all out, but most the congregation will still remain 100% loyal, even more militantly so, and put their cult leader minister than into the persecuted Christ-role.

All those elements exist in the Ron Paul campaign, including his Christ-persecution claims for which he and his followers continually claim he is being persecuted, that everyone is prejudiced against him and that there is a vast conspiracy against their cult leader. Sadly, there is something in human dna for which a certain percentage of people MUST find someone to the unquestioned leader of their counter-culture flock for which they desperately and absolutely much devote their life to being then one of the sheep of that flock.

Again, not all favoring Ron Paul are of such nature, but the majority of hardcore followers are. The sequence of this debate is just one of dozens and dozens of such evolutions in 2008 and 2012 I've seen on forums.

This coming from the person that choose to ignore jasonxe's post (#14) in it's entirety.
 
Ron Paul certainly isn't perfect, but he's steadily libertarian.
 
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