• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

OWS ~ The Progressive's Primary

Catawba

Catawba

Disappointed Evolutionist
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 10, 2009
Messages
27,254
Reaction score
9,350
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Several months ago, I saw Ralph Nader being interviewed and he spoke of the need for progressives to primary Obama. He correctly noted (IMO), that without progressives in the 2012 debate, their would not be a voice in either party for many important progressive issues.

As OWS sprang up and grew, first nationwide, and then worldwide, it became apparent that OWS was providing a progressive primary process, in lieu of the traditional primary means of changing public debate.

As a political cynic, I am somewhat hopeful (because of the OWS) that 2012 could be a pivotal year of change finally away from 30 years of Reagonomics.

So, on the one side, we have the conservatives promising to continue the Reaganomics creed of de-regulation and cutting taxes for the rich,

gop_debate_2011_11_22_.jpg


and now we have the OWS expanding the public debate about the concentration of income, wealth, and power at the top!

etminan20111112101927590.jpg
 
I don't see a connection between the OWS movement and any call to primary Obama. Can you provide evidence of this?
 
I support the process and have no problem with them providing a primary challenge, but do you really think that's good for the left wing as a whole? Right now the republican primaries are in-fighting and putting people off. That is a boon to your party. Does fragmenting the left wing help?
 
in order for the OWS to be influential in elections, they would have to take on government and other parties .. and they are too busy battling the private sector to bother themselves with politics.
 
Mycroft said:
I don't see a connection between the OWS movement and any call to primary Obama. Can you provide evidence of this?
Click to expand...

Nadar's point was that without progressives to primary the moderate Obama, we would have no one to stimulate debate on progressive issues during the 2012 presidential campaign. OWS is filling that void nicely by focusing publlc debate on progressive issues such cutting the unaffordable tax breaks for the wealthy, reestablishing the firewall between investment banks and commercial bands that we lost in 1999, and cutting wasteful spending on the military/industrial complex.
 
Keridan said:
I support the process and have no problem with them providing a primary challenge, but do you really think that's good for the left wing as a whole? Right now the republican primaries are in-fighting and putting people off. That is a boon to your party. Does fragmenting the left wing help?
Click to expand...

Yes, I think it is healthy for progressives to challenge conservatives, regardless of party.
 
Catawba said:
Nadar's point was that without progressives to primary the moderate Obama, we would have no one to stimulate debate on progressive issues during the 2012 presidential campaign. OWS is filling that void nicely by focusing publlc debate on progressive issues such cutting the unaffordable tax breaks for the wealthy, reestablishing the firewall between investment banks and commercial bands that we lost in 1999, and cutting wasteful spending on the military/industrial complex.
Click to expand...

the OWS is not filling that void... at all.
 
Thrilla said:
in order for the OWS to be influential in elections, they would have to take on government and other parties .. and they are too busy battling the private sector to bother themselves with politics.
Click to expand...

The OWS doesn't intend to be a splinter political group like the tea party. Their purpose, like other mass non-violent civil disobedience in our history (Civil Rights Movement, Women's Rights, and the anti-war protests), is to bring about an increased public awareness and debate to provide the public will necessary to make the needed changes.
 
Catawba said:
The OWS doesn't intend to be a splinter political group like the tea party. Their purpose, like other mass non-violent civil disobedience in our history (Civil Rights Movement, Women's Rights, and the anti-war protests), is to bring about an increased public awareness and debate to provide the public will necessary to make the needed changes.
Click to expand...

it's a social movement, not a political movement.... .as evident by them ignoring politics and political figures/entities.

we are talking about primaries here... elections... election debates... the OWS is absent from all of it, they are too busy occupying public lands and getting into skirmishes with the police.

they really aren't here to promote debate.. they are here to do exactly what they are doing.. promoting their list of demands.
the OWS is not very similar to our earlier movements.. earlier movements purposefully sought to remain within the law.. the OWS has purposefully sought to break laws ( which is exactly why they don't get the public sympathy earlier movements did)
earlier movements allowed authorities to screw the pooch, the OWS screwed the pooch and then got authorities to come in and unscrew the pooch.
 
Catawba said:
Nadar's point was that without progressives to primary the moderate Obama, we would have no one to stimulate debate on progressive issues during the 2012 presidential campaign. OWS is filling that void nicely by focusing publlc debate on progressive issues such cutting the unaffordable tax breaks for the wealthy, reestablishing the firewall between investment banks and commercial bands that we lost in 1999, and cutting wasteful spending on the military/industrial complex.
Click to expand...

Oh, I get it...I think.

You are not saying that OWS is promoting a primary challenge against Obama...right? Okay.

Now, if you think OWS is having a real effect on "public debate", I'd say you are engaging in wishful thinking. From what I've seen, OWS is doing more to focus public debate on their offensive and violent actions more than any of the myriad issues they seem to come up with. Furthermore, at the national political level, there seems to be a general disregard for any of their issues...except for general support from the Democrats and general disapproval from the Republicans.

I think you are giving OWS far more credit than they have earned.
 
Thrilla said:
the OWS is not filling that void... at all.
Click to expand...

That depends on you perspective of what OWS is trying to accomplish ~

"Robert Reich: Whatever happens to it, the Occupy Wall Street movement has already changed the tune of the public debate.

For the first time in more than half a century, a broad cross-section of the American public is talking about the concentration of income, wealth, and political power at the top.

Last week's Congressional Budget Office report on widening disparities of income in America was hardly news -- it was already well known that the top 1 percent now gets 20 percent of the nation's income. That's up from 9 percent in the late 1970s. But it's the first time such news made the front pages of the nation's major newspapers.

And look at public opinion. A recent New York Times/CBS News poll found that an astounding 66 percent of Americans say the nation's wealth should be more evenly distributed.

Income disparity matters | Marketplace from American Public Media
 
Mycroft said:
Oh, I get it...I think.

You are not saying that OWS is promoting a primary challenge against Obama...right?
Click to expand...

Nope, you don't got it. OWS is creating the public debate of progressive issues not being focused on either by the incumbent or any of the challengers, as Progressive primary challengers to Obama might have done, if there had been any.
 
Catawba said:
Nope, you don't got it. OWS is creating the public debate of progressive issues not being focused on either by the incumbent or any of the challengers, as Progressive primary challengers to Obama might have done, if there had been any.
Click to expand...

Maybe you didn't read the rest of my post, eh?

I don't think OWS is creating much public debate...except in respect to their offensive and violent activities. They certainly aren't creating ANY debate amongst the national figures...on any side.
 
Mycroft said:
Maybe you didn't read the rest of my post, eh?

I don't think OWS is creating much public debate...except in respect to their offensive and violent activities. They certainly aren't creating ANY debate amongst the national figures...on any side.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I read your opinion, thanks. I think I'll go with the majorities in the polls and the observation of the noted economist I quoted.

As he observed, "For the first time in more than half a century, a broad cross-section of the American public is talking about the concentration of income, wealth, and political power at the top."

"A recent New York Times/CBS News poll found that an astounding 66 percent of Americans say the nation's wealth should be more evenly distributed."

That's good enough for me!
 
Catawba said:
Yeah, I read your opinion, thanks. I think I'll go with the majorities in the polls and the observation of the noted economist I quoted.

As he observed, "For the first time in more than half a century, a broad cross-section of the American public is talking about the concentration of income, wealth, and political power at the top."

"A recent New York Times/CBS News poll found that an astounding 66 percent of Americans say the nation's wealth should be more evenly distributed."

That's good enough for me!
Click to expand...

That wasn't due to OWS. That was due to Obama's class warfare.

OWS is a joke...with no punchline. In other words...a fail.
 
Yay! three pointless ad homs in a row that say nothing more than you guys are pooping your pants angry and can't express why. Way to enrich debate.

:lamo
 
poweRob said:
Yay! three pointless ad homs in a row that say nothing more than you guys are pooping your pants angry and can't express why. Way to enrich debate.

:lamo
Click to expand...

well, according to the OP, the OWS can be attributed with this, the promotion of the pubic debate...:lol:
 
Thrilla said:
well, according to the OP, the OWS can be attributed with this, the promotion of the pubic debate...:lol:
Click to expand...

I think they've brought some things to the floor that were being ignored before basically. There is an OCCUPY Amendment that was introduced into congress by Rep. Ted Deutch that is an amendment to remove corporate person hood. Heard a lot of bitching about it before but no congressman doing much about it until the Occupy noise was made. Wealth disparity wasn't talked about near as much. There is also a bill introduced that reinstates Glass/Steagal Act since the OWS movement started. Not saying they did it but these kinds of things were not even anywhere near a newspaper until the occupy movement started making noise about them.
 
poweRob said:
I think they've brought some things to the floor that were being ignored before basically. There is an OCCUPY Amendment that was introduced into congress by Rep. Ted Deutch that is an amendment to remove corporate person hood. Heard a lot of bitching about it before but no congressman doing much about it until the Occupy noise was made. Wealth disparity wasn't talked about near as much. There is also a bill introduced that reinstates Glass/Steagal Act since the OWS movement started. Not saying they did it but these kinds of things were not even anywhere near a newspaper until the occupy movement started making noise about them.
Click to expand...

the bills to reinstate glass steagal came about before the OWS came along.... and Ted Deutch, the OWS, and anyone else that is opposed to corporate personhood are certifiable morons.
i'll take lessons in racial sensitivity from David Duke before I entertain another mental midgets mindless yammerings about corporate personhood.:lol:

the OWS certainly had the potential to engage the public in a productive debate... they have made some bad choices that have precluded that from happening to a substantial level... i'll give them props on the wealth disparity angle, though.... too bad it's largely been overshadowed by their other idiot demands and their shenanigans.
 
poweRob said:
Yay! three pointless ad homs in a row that say nothing more than you guys are pooping your pants angry and can't express why. Way to enrich debate.

:lamo
Click to expand...

I think this helps explain the fear expressed by some of the OWS protesters:

 
Keridan said:
I support the process and have no problem with them providing a primary challenge, but do you really think that's good for the left wing as a whole? Right now the republican primaries are in-fighting and putting people off. That is a boon to your party. Does fragmenting the left wing help?
Click to expand...
You are wrong about the Republican primaries putting people off. This is a normal political process that people expect.
 
Either statement is too general. The Republican in-fighting and pop-squating in Congress has certainly turned some people off. Others have conceeded to the ridiculous.

Anyways, back to OWC... while I do give these people some props for actually caring and getting off their couch, it seems terribly misguided.
Those people deserve an equal voice in government, but it's their strategy I question. You would think they would occupy Capitol Hill. Good God, there is where most the crooks are employed. Or occupy the ports (the trade with China), or the boarder with Mexico... that's where your jobs went. Go occupy your guidance office, the people that told you we should all have service-support jobs.
Go occupy rehab. Most employeers have a drug-free policy. Go occupy a voter registration position. Go occupy your Congressman's inbox. There are thousands of better things to occupy than a park.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom