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Romney is trying to impress TP and endorses the Ryan Plan

Will Romney's Medicare proposal hurt him?

  • Yes

    Votes: 4 80.0%
  • No

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Mixed Results - explain

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Not sure/other

    Votes: 1 20.0%

  • Total voters
    5

SheWolf

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This shift could help him a bit in the primary season and then work against him in the general election. And that is the basic problem of the Republican Party: they are made up of people whose ideas are so extreme, that they turn off the badly needed category of Independent voters necessary to win in November.
 
I agree with that but I would be a bit more blunt.

I would say that the Republican/Tea Party/ Libertarian party of right wing are a bit of an exclusive group in America today.
Something like a country club, where the poor, the working poor, the unemployed, the lower middle class and anybody that ain't either making a lot of money, have a lot of money, or support those that do are not welcome.
They are shunned , every idea they have is not right every suggestion they have hurts the society of America .
Well, according to the elite class of Republican, Tea Party,libertarian way of thinking.

If the Independents do come out in force this election, now would be a good time for the right wing to listen to the Independent voters, I for one would be hard pressed to count on any promises the right or left make.
So it's either Independent vote or the lesser of two evils.:peace
 
I agree with that but I would be a bit more blunt.

I would say that the Republican/Tea Party/ Libertarian party of right wing are a bit of an exclusive group in America today.
Something like a country club, where the poor, the working poor, the unemployed, the lower middle class and anybody that ain't either making a lot of money, have a lot of money, or support those that do are not welcome.
They are shunned , every idea they have is not right every suggestion they have hurts the society of America .
Well, according to the elite class of Republican, Tea Party,libertarian way of thinking.

If the Independents do come out in force this election, now would be a good time for the right wing to listen to the Independent voters, I for one would be hard pressed to count on any promises the right or left make.
So it's either Independent vote or the lesser of two evils.:peace

Have you actually ever been to a TEA party event, or even studied the platform? I am not a TP member per se, but the notion that they exclude anyone is false. The general platform is less spending, less government, less taxes. Not much past that, and they don't check your ID at the door.

I totally agree that both the democrats and the republicans need to pay the attention to the independents. They win or lose the elections. The farther right of left your leanings, the less apt you are to change your mind. In my view the middle 20% tend to be more knowledgeable and more willing to make decisions based on that knowledge than either side.
 
I agree with that but I would be a bit more blunt.

I would say that the Republican/Tea Party/ Libertarian party of right wing are a bit of an exclusive group in America today.
Something like a country club, where the poor, the working poor, the unemployed, the lower middle class and anybody that ain't either making a lot of money, have a lot of money, or support those that do are not welcome.
They are shunned , every idea they have is not right every suggestion they have hurts the society of America .
Well, according to the elite class of Republican, Tea Party,libertarian way of thinking.

If the Independents do come out in force this election, now would be a good time for the right wing to listen to the Independent voters, I for one would be hard pressed to count on any promises the right or left make.
So it's either Independent vote or the lesser of two evils.:peace

Those three groups are far from interchangable and would all see this move differently. It is also completely unfair to say libertarians have something against the poor.
 
Those three groups are far from interchangable and would all see this move differently. It is also completely unfair to say libertarians have something against the poor.

Libertarians are a pretty varied group in many ways. I would say that the libertarians who clearly identify themselves as RIGHT are indeed against the poor... at least any governmental policies to help them.
 
Libertarians are a pretty varied group in many ways. I would say that the libertarians who clearly identify themselves as RIGHT are indeed against the poor... at least any governmental policies to help them.

I somewhat agree and disagree, but I appreciate that you realize we aren't all the same.
 
Libertarians are a pretty varied group in many ways. I would say that the libertarians who clearly identify themselves as RIGHT are indeed against the poor... at least any governmental policies to help them.
Am I against my child when they grow in years, and I ask them to go to work? Seems like I'm against my child if I don't teach instill in them a good work ethic and a will to work. If my child goes out from our house with no idea what's expected of them in the real world - I've failed them.[

I don't consider myself a libertarian, but I've never met someone who did who would say they're against the poor. I believe that the true libertarian is against the government taking care of the poor forever and creating more. I consider myself a conservative, and my opinion is that if you refuse to work, then you should get nothing.

I'm not saying there shouldn't potentially be a temporary safety net. I'm just saying "give a man a fish, and he'll need more tomorrow; tell a man he's going to starve if he doesn't fish, and he'll learn". Teaching him might be even better.

If people are moving to our country to work, that means there are jobs here that people are refusing to do. Silver spoon syndrome.
 
Have you actually ever been to a TEA party event, or even studied the platform? I am not a TP member per se, but the notion that they exclude anyone is false. The general platform is less spending, less government, less taxes. Not much past that, and they don't check your ID at the door.

I totally agree that both the democrats and the republicans need to pay the attention to the independents. They win or lose the elections. The farther right of left your leanings, the less apt you are to change your mind. In my view the middle 20% tend to be more knowledgeable and more willing to make decisions based on that knowledge than either side.

I have heard and studied TP PLATFORMS.

On the hand they want less spending, less government but are always there when corpoations need bailouts or reserch grants.
less taxes, on the other they want support outsourceing, they support less responsibilty to the rich.

Question; exactly how is less spending, less taxes, less government going to help the unemployed Americans or Americans living on a shoestring budget?
The unemployed have very little money to spend, they pay no taxes
The working poor are mostly getting rebates and have very little left after paying bills
The lower middle class pay very few taxes and after that spending is not a high priority.
The middle class although the meat of tax revenue is an endangerd species
The rich get a tax cut that's like getting paid to pay taxes.

So if America is forced to rise taxes who will suffer?
If there is less jobs there is and will be less consumers who will suffer
Big government, little government who is really conserned here?
The 80 % from the middle class down or the upper 10%, and why?
Answer, more money for the ones and the top and less raises, less jobs and less money for the rest.
 
Those three groups are far from interchangable and would all see this move differently. It is also completely unfair to say libertarians have something against the poor.

All 3 groups have right wing poicies with what used to be Republican members.
Name me a libertarian or a Republican that has stood against the Tea Party.:peace
 
great, after spending a career with increasingly lousy private insurance and high copays, GenXers and millennials can look forward to a voucher that partially funds more lousy private insurance.

to hell with that. if that's where we're at, then the unsustainable private health care system is a failure and needs some serious public competition.
 
All 3 groups have right wing poicies with what used to be Republican members.
Name me a libertarian or a Republican that has stood against the Tea Party.:peace

They don't have to stand against them to not be a part of them. I am libertarian, but not a member of the TP. I want to see less government spending, but what they do take in taxes should be in a tiered, progressive system. I think they should encourage programs for those in need, but I don't think they are responsible enough to manage those programs. I could go on, but there is a real difference between the three.
 
Am I against my child when they grow in years, and I ask them to go to work? Seems like I'm against my child if I don't teach instill in them a good work ethic and a will to work. If my child goes out from our house with no idea what's expected of them in the real world - I've failed them.[

I don't consider myself a libertarian, but I've never met someone who did who would say they're against the poor. I believe that the true libertarian is against the government taking care of the poor forever and creating more. I consider myself a conservative, and my opinion is that if you refuse to work, then you should get nothing.

I'm not saying there shouldn't potentially be a temporary safety net. I'm just saying "give a man a fish, and he'll need more tomorrow; tell a man he's going to starve if he doesn't fish, and he'll learn". Teaching him might be even better.

If people are moving to our country to work, that means there are jobs here that people are refusing to do. Silver spoon syndrome.

What if you child goes out looking for work and he can't find work?

Teach a man to fish in an empty pond he is wasting his time .

If you have a million people fishing in a pond with a thousand fish, WELL?

T he right wing started that work ethic routine back when Reagan had the bright idea to help the rich and money and jobs would tricle down to the average and poor, and voila' the trickle down theory was in effect.

Unfotunatly somebody forgot to tell the rich because the rickle never started all we got was a tiny drip in the late 90's which brought us a small surplus not much didn't last that long.

Some of us out here don't think the rich need anymore help nor should the American corporations deserve American consumer money .
After all they are not responsible for creating jobs in America; why should the consumers of America "which are mostly people who have jobs or have lost jobs" be responsible for their profit sales?:peace
 
They don't have to stand against them to not be a part of them. I am libertarian, but not a member of the TP. I want to see less government spending, but what they do take in taxes should be in a tiered, progressive system. I think they should encourage programs for those in need, but I don't think they are responsible enough to manage those programs. I could go on, but there is a real difference between the three.

I am an Independent I stand against Obama because he is weak, I stand against the Libertarian party for if they are too weak to stand against the ethics of the TP, are they not weak, if the Republicas are too weak to take a stand against the TP are they not weak as well?

So if the government doesn't have enough responsilbility to manage programs , who does?
Bear Sterns
AIG
GMC
FREDDY MAC
FANNY MAE
Maybe we could get the ex manager of ENRON to come out of retirement?:peace
 
I am an Independent I stand against Obama because he is weak, I stand against the Libertarian party for if they are too weak to stand against the ethics of the TP, are they not weak, if the Republicas are too weak to take a stand against the TP are they not weak as well?

So if the government doesn't have enough responsilbility to manage programs , who does?
Bear Sterns
AIG
GMC
FREDDY MAC
FANNY MAE
Maybe we could get the ex manager of ENRON to come out of retirement?:peace


Sure, those a few companies that wouldn't manage it well, but they are a cherry picked list, most of whom would be out of business if it were not for the bailouts.

So I disagree with TP on some issues, that means I need to spend my life fighting them? In that case, I have to go against liberals, democrats, OWSers and everyone else. I don't think I have the energy for that many battles. Ending the Tea Party is not my primary goal in life, but that does not mean I'm the same as them.
 
great, after spending a career with increasingly lousy private insurance and high copays, GenXers and millennials can look forward to a voucher that partially funds more lousy private insurance.

to hell with that. if that's where we're at, then the unsustainable private health care system is a failure and needs some serious public competition.

Agreed, what's next ration slips for gas and clothes?:peace
 
Am I against my child when they grow in years, and I ask them to go to work? Seems like I'm against my child if I don't teach instill in them a good work ethic and a will to work. If my child goes out from our house with no idea what's expected of them in the real world - I've failed them.[

I don't consider myself a libertarian, but I've never met someone who did who would say they're against the poor. I believe that the true libertarian is against the government taking care of the poor forever and creating more. I consider myself a conservative, and my opinion is that if you refuse to work, then you should get nothing.

I'm not saying there shouldn't potentially be a temporary safety net. I'm just saying "give a man a fish, and he'll need more tomorrow; tell a man he's going to starve if he doesn't fish, and he'll learn". Teaching him might be even better.

If people are moving to our country to work, that means there are jobs here that people are refusing to do. Silver spoon syndrome.

i know no person on the progressive side of the aisle who disagrees with hard work, teaching your children solid values and the value of a solid education and job skills.
 
Have you actually ever been to a TEA party event, or even studied the platform? I am not a TP member per se, but the notion that they exclude anyone is false. The general platform is less spending, less government, less taxes. Not much past that, and they don't check your ID at the door.

I totally agree that both the democrats and the republicans need to pay the attention to the independents. They win or lose the elections. The farther right of left your leanings, the less apt you are to change your mind. In my view the middle 20% tend to be more knowledgeable and more willing to make decisions based on that knowledge than either side.


I disagree to an extent...I went to 4 teaparty rallies prior to the nov elections...then their entire platform was stopping obamacare first then no more stimulus...it has morphed into what it was originally designed for...to give more money to the rich...the rest is just rhetoric and bs to get as many working class dumbos as they can to support them and cut their own throats...
 
i know no person on the progressive side of the aisle who disagrees with hard work, teaching your children solid values and the value of a solid education and job skills.

But, people on the progressive side do not agree that other people are capable of these things on their own. For some reason, (it seems to me) progressives think the Federal government can provide these things.
 
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But, people on the progressive side do not agree that other people are capable of these things on their own. For some reason, (it seems to me) progressives think the Federal government can provide these things.

The term PEOPLE takes in million and millions and millions of Americans - each different, each unique and each with their own specific set of issues. Some indeed are capable... most I would guess. Some indeed are not capable ... a much smaller number.
 
Sure, those a few companies that wouldn't manage it well, but they are a cherry picked list, most of whom would be out of business if it were not for the bailouts.

So I disagree with TP on some issues, that means I need to spend my life fighting them? In that case, I have to go against liberals, democrats, OWSers and everyone else. I don't think I have the energy for that many battles. Ending the Tea Party is not my primary goal in life, but that does not mean I'm the same as them.

Well being a party line member or a yes man is not my primary goal in life .
The welfare and progress of America is in my top 5 primary goals.
My other primary goals are personal.
Now just saying that the progress and welfare of America is not about one group, or it shouldn't be.
It's about the welfare and progress of every American in America as well as the government that defends America the corporations that hire Americans the Americans that spend their money on American taxes and American products.

Perhaps if a Libertarian came up with something like that I'd listen., but they won't because to do that they would have to stand up against the Tea Party, and frankly I think the Republicans and Libertarians are more afraid of the Tea P arty than Democrats and independents are.
I have seen a lot of debates Democrat against liberal , Democrat against Democrat, Republican against libertarian a few times, but never any Republican or Libertarian against a TEA PARTY MEMBER no matter what the topic.:peace
 
I have heard and studied TP PLATFORMS.

On the hand they want less spending, less government but are always there when corpoations need bailouts or reserch grants.
less taxes, on the other they want support outsourceing, they support less responsibilty to the rich.

Question; exactly how is less spending, less taxes, less government going to help the unemployed Americans or Americans living on a shoestring budget?
The unemployed have very little money to spend, they pay no taxes
The working poor are mostly getting rebates and have very little left after paying bills
The lower middle class pay very few taxes and after that spending is not a high priority.
The middle class although the meat of tax revenue is an endangerd species
The rich get a tax cut that's like getting paid to pay taxes.

So if America is forced to rise taxes who will suffer?
If there is less jobs there is and will be less consumers who will suffer
Big government, little government who is really conserned here?
The 80 % from the middle class down or the upper 10%, and why?
Answer, more money for the ones and the top and less raises, less jobs and less money for the rest.

Here is the Tea Party platform, extracted from their site:

Nowhere does it say they exclude the poor or any other group, in fact, the Preamble says otherwise.

Preamble: The Tea Party Movement is an all-inclusive American grassroots movement with the belief that everyone is created equal and deserves an equal opportunity to thrive in these United States where they may “pursue life, liberty and happiness” as stated in the Declaration of Independence and guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States.

No one is excluded from participation in the Tea Party Movement. Everyone is welcomed to join in seeking to achieve the Tea Party Movement goals, which are as follows:

1. Eliminate Excessive Taxes - Excessively high taxes are a burden for those exercising their personal liberty to work hard and prosper as afforded by the Constitution. A fiscally responsible government protects the freedom of its citizens to enjoy the fruits of their own labor without interference from a government that has exceeded its necessary size, scope and reach into the lives of its citizens.

2. Eliminate the National Debt - By implementing fiscally conservative policies at all levels of government, progress can be made toward eliminating the U.S. National Debt. Massive increases in the National Debt have created and continue to create a huge burden for the next generation of Americans, thus imperiling the country’s short-term and long-term economic health and prosperity.

3. Eliminate Deficit Spending - All deficit spending must be eliminated immediately. We insist that government representatives at all levels maintain a fiscally responsible budget and balance the books as would be expected of any American business.

4. Protect Free Markets - America’s free enterprise system allows businesses to thrive as they compete in the open marketplace and strive toward ever better services and products. Allowing free markets to prosper unfettered by government interference is what propelled this country to greatness with an enduring belief in the industriousness and innovations of the populace.

5. Abide by the Constitution of the United States - The U.S. Constitution is the supreme law of the land and must be adhered to without exception at all levels of government. This includes the Bill of Rights and other Amendments to the U.S. Constitution and their provisions designed to protect states’ rights and individual liberties.

6. Promote Civic Responsibility - Citizen involvement at the grassroots level allows the voice of the American people to be heard and directs the political behaviors of our representatives at both the local and national level so they, in turn, may be most effective in working to preserve the life, liberty and pursuit of happiness of this country’s citizens.

7. Reduce the Overall Size of Government - A bloated bureaucracy creates wasteful spending that plagues our government. Reducing the overall size, scope and reach of government at both local and national levels will help to eliminate inefficiencies that result in deficit spending which adds to our country’s debt.

8. Believe in the People - The American people, given their guaranteed freedoms, will thrive in a democratic, capitalist environment which allows individuals to strive toward ever greater achievements, innovations and the efficient production of needed and valued goods and services.

9. Avoid the Pitfalls of Politics - American politics is burdened by big money from lobbyists and special interests with an undue influence on the peoples’ representatives. The Tea Party movement is seen as a threat to the entrenched political parties and thus is the continual target of smear campaigns and misrepresentation of its ideals. We choose not to respond to these attacks except to strongly and explicitly disavow any and all hate speech, any and all violence as well as insinuations of violence, and any and all extreme and fringe elements that bring discredit to the Tea Party Movement. We are a peaceful movement and respect other's opinions and views even though they do not agree with our own. We stand by the Tea Party beliefs and goals and choose to focus our energies on ensuring that our government representatives do the same.

10. Maintain Local Independence - The strength and resilience of a grassroots movement is the ability of citizens at the local level to determine their own platforms, agendas and priorities free of an overriding central leadership. Exercising the clearly stated message of the Tea Party movement by its nature involves discourse about which policies and candidates best hold to our stated principles, and these various opinions should flourish and evolve at the local level.

I've pulled the quotes. You can see them at the site if you are interested. Most of them you have heard before. Otherwise, the wording and positions are from the site.

The Tea Party believes in the ability and the responsibility of the individual.
The Tea Party believes in a limited government
The Tea Party does NOT believe in handouts to corporations, businesses, the rich, nor any other groups, other than a leg up when it is needed. They do not support outsourcing, nor do they particularly deny the need for research, or limit it to big business.
The Tea Party believes that the best government is the least possible, and at the lowest level possible.
The Tea Party believes in the rule of law, which is why when they hold a meeting or other gathering, all required fees, bonds, security, sanitation facilities required are provided for, and they pick up after themselves.

Mostly I agree with them. and no, I have not been to a meeting.
 
There is no Tea Party, per se, so of course they don't have a website. There are just a bunch of ad hoc groups, each wanting to claim that they represent "The Tea Party".

I don't think these groups try to exclude anyone, but their agenda clearly benefits corporations and the rich. That's the irony of it. These folks are the pawns of the Koch Bros. and don't even know it.
 
Agreed, what's next ration slips for gas and clothes?:peace

what's next is that younger generations will not be able to afford to retire. ever.
 
Here is the Tea Party platform, extracted from their site:

Nowhere does it say they exclude the poor or any other group, in fact, the Preamble says otherwise.

Preamble: The Tea Party Movement is an all-inclusive American grassroots movement with the belief that everyone is created equal and deserves an equal opportunity to thrive in these United States where they may “pursue life, liberty and happiness” as stated in the Declaration of Independence and guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States.

No one is excluded from participation in the Tea Party Movement. Everyone is welcomed to join in seeking to achieve the Tea Party Movement goals, which are as follows:

1. Eliminate Excessive Taxes - Excessively high taxes are a burden for those exercising their personal liberty to work hard and prosper as afforded by the Constitution. A fiscally responsible government protects the freedom of its citizens to enjoy the fruits of their own labor without interference from a government that has exceeded its necessary size, scope and reach into the lives of its citizens.

2. Eliminate the National Debt - By implementing fiscally conservative policies at all levels of government, progress can be made toward eliminating the U.S. National Debt. Massive increases in the National Debt have created and continue to create a huge burden for the next generation of Americans, thus imperiling the country’s short-term and long-term economic health and prosperity.

3. Eliminate Deficit Spending - All deficit spending must be eliminated immediately. We insist that government representatives at all levels maintain a fiscally responsible budget and balance the books as would be expected of any American business.

4. Protect Free Markets - America’s free enterprise system allows businesses to thrive as they compete in the open marketplace and strive toward ever better services and products. Allowing free markets to prosper unfettered by government interference is what propelled this country to greatness with an enduring belief in the industriousness and innovations of the populace.

5. Abide by the Constitution of the United States - The U.S. Constitution is the supreme law of the land and must be adhered to without exception at all levels of government. This includes the Bill of Rights and other Amendments to the U.S. Constitution and their provisions designed to protect states’ rights and individual liberties.

6. Promote Civic Responsibility - Citizen involvement at the grassroots level allows the voice of the American people to be heard and directs the political behaviors of our representatives at both the local and national level so they, in turn, may be most effective in working to preserve the life, liberty and pursuit of happiness of this country’s citizens.

7. Reduce the Overall Size of Government - A bloated bureaucracy creates wasteful spending that plagues our government. Reducing the overall size, scope and reach of government at both local and national levels will help to eliminate inefficiencies that result in deficit spending which adds to our country’s debt.

8. Believe in the People - The American people, given their guaranteed freedoms, will thrive in a democratic, capitalist environment which allows individuals to strive toward ever greater achievements, innovations and the efficient production of needed and valued goods and services.

9. Avoid the Pitfalls of Politics - American politics is burdened by big money from lobbyists and special interests with an undue influence on the peoples’ representatives. The Tea Party movement is seen as a threat to the entrenched political parties and thus is the continual target of smear campaigns and misrepresentation of its ideals. We choose not to respond to these attacks except to strongly and explicitly disavow any and all hate speech, any and all violence as well as insinuations of violence, and any and all extreme and fringe elements that bring discredit to the Tea Party Movement. We are a peaceful movement and respect other's opinions and views even though they do not agree with our own. We stand by the Tea Party beliefs and goals and choose to focus our energies on ensuring that our government representatives do the same.

10. Maintain Local Independence - The strength and resilience of a grassroots movement is the ability of citizens at the local level to determine their own platforms, agendas and priorities free of an overriding central leadership. Exercising the clearly stated message of the Tea Party movement by its nature involves discourse about which policies and candidates best hold to our stated principles, and these various opinions should flourish and evolve at the local level.

I've pulled the quotes. You can see them at the site if you are interested. Most of them you have heard before. Otherwise, the wording and positions are from the site.

The Tea Party believes in the ability and the responsibility of the individual.
The Tea Party believes in a limited government
The Tea Party does NOT believe in handouts to corporations, businesses, the rich, nor any other groups, other than a leg up when it is needed. They do not support outsourcing, nor do they particularly deny the need for research, or limit it to big business.
The Tea Party believes that the best government is the least possible, and at the lowest level possible.
The Tea Party believes in the rule of law, which is why when they hold a meeting or other gathering, all required fees, bonds, security, sanitation facilities required are provided for, and they pick up after themselves.

Mostly I agree with them. and no, I have not been to a meeting.

There is nothing in that preamble except the same stuff just printed with a better spin.

The preamble I purpose is not declarative it is interogitive, a big differance.

TP says eliminate excessive tax., I'm for that
Question since 9+ % of Americans don't pay tax unemployed and more are going how you going to keep up with Tax revenue for state and federal taxes?

2 eliminate the National debt I'm for that
Question, how is America to do that tax revenue is already streatched budget cuts have been done so How??

3,Eliminate deficit spending, sure but lets be clear ALL DEFICIT SPENDING.
WHERE YOU GOING TO START WITH THE RESERCH GRANTS THE BRIDGES OR THE LOBBYIST?

4 Protect free markets so American business can compete.
Question compete with who??? American products are built by foriegn labor and sometimes use foriegn parts

5 ABIDE BY THE CONSITUTION an excellant idea.
Question;Is that all the Constitution ??

6 Promote civic responsibility. sounds resanable,
Question; should not all including the rich and corporations be equaly responsible in preserving Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness?
To pursure Happiness you must at least have the oppurtunity to do so, happiness without a job lacks it's luster.

7 Reduce the overall size of Government sounds good.
Question reduceing the government would mean reduceing the strengh of the Pentagon would it not?

8 BELIEVE IN THE PEOPLE, words to live by IMO.
Question; Did the hard working, intelligent people as well as College grads leave American business or did American business leave them???

9 Avoid the pitfalls of politics been there done that.
Question; How about avoiding the patisanship and blame game of politics??

10 Maintain local Independence.
QUESTION; HOW to do that? big business and politics left Rural Main street long ago only brought up in election years and pic ops today.

Not in any of the so called preample of the tp did they mention just where they stood on bypartinship, nor did they take a stand for the working class.

On one hand they say politics should listen to the people.
Yet when thousands of protestors hit the streets TP was 1st to say don't listen to these people???

I respect your opinion to agree with mostly agree with TP just as much as you respect my opinion to disagree with all of the TP.:peace
 
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