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Cain campaign has biggest online fundraising day

What does Herman Cain harassing women in the 90s have to do with liberals?
Before I see any more evidence, I believe they are all made up. I mean the fourth accusation suddenly came up. This is just getting ridiculous.
 
i think you are underestimating conservatives loathing for Romney. a non-Conservative Republican would be a disaster for the party and the country - Conservatives would be pulled into defending Romney, negating their ability to push the kind of fiscal reforms that are needed to avoid a collapse. In 2008, I wanted Obama to win for the same reason - let the Democrats own liberal failure so that Republicans can offer Conservative alternatives. If Republicans offer liberal failure, then there is no alternative.

so the question is; what is more important - the next four years? or the next forty?

I am really starting to suspect you are right about the level of dislike. He was, a year ago, at 22 %, he has never topped 25 % and is at about 24 % now. His support level never changes. With the weal field he is facing in the primary, you would expect him to get more support from somewhere, but it never comes. Using RCP, if you add undecideds to Gingrich, he would be in second place ahead of Romney. It really makes me question all my assumptions when looking at the poll data and trying to predict what will happen. If I was to make a guess right now, I would guess Cain probably has about the best chance if he can get some early states(and he leads in some, and is neck in neck in Florida, which would be huge for him).

:shrug: well we'll see. If he is guilty of the charges, then that is absolutely what he should do. But I'll admit I believe him when he says that he and his campaign have just handled this badly. But :shrug: again we'll see.

Guilt at this point doesn't much matter. He cannot prove his innocence, and the last thing he wants is the women to actually be allowed to discuss what happened. That would be big, front page, negative news of the sort he does not want. Nor can he really attack the women, that just looks bad.
 
the economy is not doomed to success by any means, and your depiction is flawed. at our current rate of job creation, we effectively never replace the millions of jobs we have lost. meanwhile, the next President will be confronted with exploding budgets and (if he is reelected) the bankruptcy of Medicare. The Euro is doomed, American consumers have deleveraging to go through yet, the housing market has further to fall, the Middle East is going to spin further into inchoate volatility, and at some point someone is going to decide not to be the last guy at the table when the bill comes due, and they will start selling dollars. we have a very narrow window of opportunity to avoid a very tough decade and a half or so.

Job creation will rise, the cycle will continue just as it always does.

As the economy improves(which it will do, just as it always does), Medicare funding will improve too with the growing tax revenue. Further, no one is saying Medicare should not be worked on to make it more cost effective.

I understand the need for doom and gloom going into the election, but really, this is just sad.
 
I am really starting to suspect you are right about the level of dislike. He was, a year ago, at 22 %, he has never topped 25 % and is at about 24 % now. His support level never changes. With the weal field he is facing in the primary, you would expect him to get more support from somewhere, but it never comes. Using RCP, if you add undecideds to Gingrich, he would be in second place ahead of Romney. It really makes me question all my assumptions when looking at the poll data and trying to predict what will happen. If I was to make a guess right now, I would guess Cain probably has about the best chance if he can get some early states(and he leads in some, and is neck in neck in Florida, which would be huge for him).

If Cain can win some states, he has to sweep and sweep early - Romney and Perry both have the funds to keep going for a long time. If Cain sweeps early and Perry is left with nothing, striking a deal for a VP slot (which I am not sure I really see as a plausibility, but it's a possibility), then his resources become Cain's resources and the game could be won. But Gingrich is rising too - and if Cain goes down over this sexual harrassment issue, he is poised to pick up the support. One of the benefits of all your baggage being known is that it's hard to get hit with something like this, and who knows? Gingrich could become the notRomney. Really its' an interesting race - too bad there's so much riding on it.

As for Romney - yeah. We've seen multiple other candidacy's spike and then implode; none of it to Romney's benefit. Those voters are not going to fall into Romney's camp - it just looks like they are going to keep arguing amongst themselves over who is the best notRomney of the rest.

It's always tempting to expound from your own experience and opinions, but consider this: you've seen me post my opinions about Ron Paul, the Gold Standard, the cataclysm that would follow any implementation of his proposed foreign policy, etc. If Romney is the Republican candidate and Ron Paul runs as a libertarian; I am voting for Paul. My willingness to vote for Romney is only microscopically distinguishable from my willingness to vote for Obama.

Guilt at this point doesn't much matter. He cannot prove his innocence, and the last thing he wants is the women to actually be allowed to discuss what happened. That would be big, front page, negative news of the sort he does not want. Nor can he really attack the women, that just looks bad.

that depends - drudge is reporting that one of the women (who does not wish to be named) is a Democrat who works in politics. If it looks like a smear job on Cain, this rebounds in his favor.
 
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As for Romney - yeah. We've seen multiple other candidacy's spike and then implode; none of it to Romney's benefit. Those voters are not going to fall into Romney's camp - it just looks like they are going to keep arguing amongst themselves over who is the best notRomney of the rest.
Problem is, there is no good notRomney, and Romney is terrible. With all of these allegations (probably false) I think Cain will have a hard time winning.

If Romney wins, then I think it is better to just let Obama win the election. I hope Paul runs as an independant-. The presidency is not that important, and a President Romney will be just as unpopular and he will make sure Democrats win the 2014 congress elections. Which will force him to implement much left wing politics, then a Democrat is going to become President in 2016, and America economic freedom will be in rapid decline.
 
Job creation will rise, the cycle will continue just as it always does.

'the cycle' is a creation of artificial signal distortion, and "job creation will rise"? to what? we're not even treading water - we need to add 150,000 jobs net every single month just to keep up with population growth. what macroeconomic impacts do you see improving? Greece is going to save itself and the Euro? Italy, Spain and Portugal will do the same? China will suddenly become a nation of consumers and import our goods? American consumers and businesses will wake up tomorrow to find bank error in their favor and our massive amounts of leverage have all been wiped out?

it is economically possible to spur a massive growth spurt in this nation. unfortunately, it's not politically possible.

As the economy improves(which it will do, just as it always does), Medicare funding will improve too with the growing tax revenue. Further, no one is saying Medicare should not be worked on to make it more cost effective.

that is correct - the House passed a budget that dealt with that very issue. problem: neither Obama or Romney are willing to take the political heat for performing necessary alterations. and we are at the point now where it does not matter if FICA taxes increase in the next few years. the baby boomers are going to retire and stop paying FICA and start drawing benefits. it is already too late to avoid having to dramatically alter our entitlement system to seriously reduce expenditures.

I understand the need for doom and gloom going into the election, but really, this is just sad.

this has nothing to do with the election, and I frankly seriously doubt the ability of anyone running for the Presidency to be able to pull off avoiding this trainwreck (hence my Mitch Daniels obsession earlier this year); this is the direction we have been headed in for some time.
 
If Cain can win some states, he has to sweep and sweep early - Romney and Perry both have the funds to keep going for a long time. If Cain sweeps early and Perry is left with nothing, striking a deal for a VP slot (which I am not sure I really see as a plausibility, but it's a possibility), then his resources become Cain's resources and the game could be won. But Gingrich is rising too - and if Cain goes down over this sexual harrassment issue, he is poised to pick up the support. One of the benefits of all your baggage being known is that it's hard to get hit with something like this, and who knows? Gingrich could become the notRomney. Really its' an interesting race - too bad there's so much riding on it.

As for Romney - yeah. We've seen multiple other candidacy's spike and then implode; none of it to Romney's benefit. Those voters are not going to fall into Romney's camp - it just looks like they are going to keep arguing amongst themselves over who is the best notRomney of the rest.

It's always tempting to expound from your own experience and opinions, but consider this: you've seen me post my opinions about Ron Paul, the Gold Standard, the cataclysm that would follow any implementation of his proposed foreign policy, etc. If Romney is the Republican candidate and Ron Paul runs as a libertarian; I am voting for Paul. My willingness to vote for Romney is only microscopically distinguishable from my willingness to vote for Obama.

Cain is actually working on a southern strategy. He is not worrying much about the early states(though he will do enough to stay competitive), then hoping to pull the southern states where he is already very strong. It could work. If he can get Iowa and SC, and at least come in a strong second in Florida, he has momentum and alot of primaries coming in states where he is strong and campaigning almost alone right now.

that depends - drudge is reporting that one of the women (who does not wish to be named) is a Democrat who works in politics. If it looks like a smear job on Cain, this rebounds in his favor.

That would be a legitimate point if it had been the two women who settled coming forward. That is not the case.
 
Cain is actually working on a southern strategy. He is not worrying much about the early states(though he will do enough to stay competitive), then hoping to pull the southern states where he is already very strong. It could work. If he can get Iowa and SC, and at least come in a strong second in Florida, he has momentum and alot of primaries coming in states where he is strong and campaigning almost alone right now.

if he can pull off Iowa and SC he's won the first two of three primary contests (and everyone knows Romney will win NH, so he get's no bump from it), and at that point I would say that it's his race to lose.


huh. a real no-kidding Cain v Obama campaign. that would be interesting.

That would be a legitimate point if it had been the two women who settled coming forward. That is not the case.

:shrug: i'll admit i've deliberately ignored obsessing about the specifics of this until we actually get some facts out there. not my usual m.o., agreeably :)
 
if he can pull off Iowa and SC he's won the first two of three primary contests (and everyone knows Romney will win NH, so he get's no bump from it), and at that point I would say that it's his race to lose.


huh. a real no-kidding Cain v Obama campaign. that would be interesting.



:shrug: i'll admit i've deliberately ignored obsessing about the specifics of this until we actually get some facts out there. not my usual m.o., agreeably :)

I have not really been paying attention, I just happened to notice it in a thread here.
 
the economy is not doomed to success by any means, and your depiction is flawed. at our current rate of job creation, we effectively never replace the millions of jobs we have lost. meanwhile, the next President will be confronted with exploding budgets and (if he is reelected) the bankruptcy of Medicare. The Euro is doomed, American consumers have deleveraging to go through yet, the housing market has further to fall, the Middle East is going to spin further into inchoate volatility, and at some point someone is going to decide not to be the last guy at the table when the bill comes due, and they will start selling dollars. we have a very narrow window of opportunity to avoid a very tough decade and a half or so.

Woh, step away from the ledge, guy! :lol:

We are treading water in terms of unemployment at the moment but that is set to improve next year and in succeeding years. Budgets don't have to explode, assuming that Congress eventually faces reality and is willing to raise taxes and cut spending. The housing market will come back over the next 2-4 years and that will be a big part of the long-term recovery. The Euro is certainly not doomed, even if Greece goes through a controlled default. The ME is not going to be a major problem. Self interest will insure that the oil keeps flowing no matter who's turning the valves.

It's always darkest before the dawn.
 
Woh, step away from the ledge, guy!

see, it's funny. just like everyone was laughing at us a few years back when we were predicting the crack up of the eurozone.

We are treading water in terms of unemployment at the moment but that is set to improve next year and in succeeding years.

based on rosy scenario assumptions? we were told the same thing last year and the same thing the year before that - as though Washington had a magic "make the economy better" button and just hadn't gotten around to pushing it, but had definitely put pushing the button on it's calendar of things to get around to.

I agree we can see strong growth, but the necessary alterations to cause us to actually go through a period of strong economic growth are politically extremely unlikely.

Budgets don't have to explode, assuming that Congress eventually faces reality and is willing to raise taxes and cut spending.

1. you won't get more revenue by raising nominal tax rates. you get it by increasing growth. nominal income tax rates have varied wildly over the last half century or so, but have demonstrated very little actual direct connection to revenues, and only moderate indirect connection to revenues through the mechanism of their ability to effect.... growth.

2. the spending that will be cut (not "should be cut". "will be cut" - one way or the other) has to be significant, which means it has to come from medicare and social security, and it has to come from medicare soon. do you see democrats leaping on board with this, or do you see them riding this ship all the way down to the bottom of the sea? because frankly, we had one golden, moment of beautiful possibility when the Simpson-Bowles Commission came out with their report.... and Democrats uniformly wrecked it.

The housing market will come back over the next 2-4 years and that will be a big part of the long-term recovery.

the housing market has further to fall, and as baby boomers retire and look to downsize their living accommodations, we will be left with a significant glut for years.

The Euro is certainly not doomed, even if Greece goes through a controlled default.

the Euro is doomed for the simple enough reason that Greece (and Italys', and Spains', and Portugals', and others) deficits are demographically structural rather than the product of poor budgeting. Germany (which has now passed a balanced budget amendment) is not likely to commit national suicide in order to help them hang on another 10-15 years.

The ME is not going to be a major problem

sure. Iran going nuclear and establishing regional hegemony in concordance with the Chinese efforts in the area will have no ill effects whatsoever. all those nations that just became more democratic will also be more peaceful, because if there is one thing we know about the arab population in the middle east, it is it's deep desire to live in brotherly friendship with Israel... who is armed with nukes.

and who, in turn, won't let Iran go nuclear, which means unless the US is able to do something, there is probably going to be military strikes, and possibly going to be another war. Except now the parties are potentially playing with nukes and the one actor capable of keeping them apart is pulling back because he doesn't like playing world police anymore.

Self interest will insure that the oil keeps flowing no matter who's turning the valves.

sure, and that oil will flow... directly to China. whose self interest dictates that it will ensure this happens. with europe in shambles, Israel, Egypt, and Iran all playing mexican standoff, the US withdrawing due to budgetary constraints, and China pursuing a mercantilist foreign policy; who exactly is going to be stopping rogue pirates from attacking the oil trade? Oil from the ME will spike in price and lower in supply, meaning the US will either turn to domestic sources ricky ticky, or watch its' economy collapse further.

It's always darkest before the dawn.

agreed. the post-collapse world could see the final destruction of the notion that we can successfully run a corporatist welfare state; the America that rises from the ashes will face a weakened world less capable of opposing her efforts to bring them under a democratic hegemony. assuming, of course, that we are able to solve our internal contradictions to do so.

it's just going to take our own little mini-maybe-quarter-century Dark Age to get there. hooray?
 
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Woh, step away from the ledge, guy!

see, it's funny. just like everyone was laughing at us a few years back when we were predicting the crack up of the eurozone.

We are treading water in terms of unemployment at the moment but that is set to improve next year and in succeeding years.

based on rosy scenario assumptions? I agree it can, but the necessary alterations to cause us to actually go through a period of strong economic growth are politically extremely unlikely.

Budgets don't have to explode, assuming that Congress eventually faces reality and is willing to raise taxes and cut spending.

1. you won't get more revenue by raising nominal tax rates. you get it by increasing growth. nominal income tax rates have varied wildly over the last half century or so, but have demonstrated very little actual direct connection to revenues, and only moderate indirect connection to revenues through the mechanism of their ability to effect.... growth.

2. the spending that will be cut (not "should be cut". "will be cut" - one way or the other) has to be significant, which means it has to come from medicare and social security, and it has to come from medicare soon. do you see democrats leaping on board with this, or do you see them riding this ship all the way down to the bottom of the sea? because frankly, we had one golden, moment of beautiful possibility when the Simpson-Bowles Commission came out with their report.... and Democrats uniformly wrecked it.

The housing market will come back over the next 2-4 years and that will be a big part of the long-term recovery.

the housing market has further to fall, and as baby boomers retire and look to downsize their living accommodations, we will be left with a significant glut for years.

The Euro is certainly not doomed, even if Greece goes through a controlled default.

the Euro is doomed for the simple enough reason that Greece (and Italys', and Spains', and Portugals', and others) deficits are demographically structural rather than the product of poor budgeting. Germany (which has now passed a balanced budget amendment) is not likely to commit national suicide in order to help them hang on another 10-15 years.

The ME is not going to be a major problem

sure. Iran going nuclear and establishing regional hegemony in concordance with the Chinese efforts in the area will have no ill effects whatsoever. all those nations that just became more democratic will also be more peaceful, because if there is one thing we know about the arab population in the middle east, it is it's deep desire to live in brotherly friendship with Israel... who is armed with nukes.

and who, in turn, won't let Iran go nuclear, which means unless the US is able to do something, there is probably going to be military strikes, and possibly going to be another war. Except now the parties are potentially playing with nukes and the one actor capable of keeping them apart is pulling back because he doesn't like playing world police anymore.

Self interest will insure that the oil keeps flowing no matter who's turning the valves.

sure, and that oil will flow... directly to China. whose self interest dictates that it will ensure this happens. with europe in shambles, Israel, Egypt, and Iran all playing mexican standoff, the US withdrawing due to budgetary constraints, and China pursuing a mercantilist foreign policy; who exactly is going to be stopping rogue pirates from attacking the oil trade? Oil from the ME will spike in price and lower in supply, meaning the US will either turn to domestic sources ricky ticky, or watch its' economy collapse further.

It's always darkest before the dawn.

agreed. the post-collapse world could see the final destruction of the notion that we can successfully run a corporatist welfare state; the America that rises from the ashes will face a weakened world less capable of opposing her efforts to bring them under a democratic hegemony. assuming, of course, that we are able to solve our internal contradictions to do so.

it's just going to take our own little mini-maybe-quarter-maybe-half-century Dark Age to get there. hooray?
 
based on rosy scenario assumptions? we were told the same thing last year and the same thing the year before that - as though Washington had a magic "make the economy better" button and just hadn't gotten around to pushing it, but had definitely put pushing the button on it's calendar of things to get around to.

The economy has gotten better, without question, relative to what we were experiencing a few short years ago. We should be doing more stimulus, but that's unlikely. Even without it the economy will move toward a better equilibrium as pent-up business and consumer demand ramp up and as the stock of defaulted property works its way through the market.

I agree we can see strong growth, but the necessary alterations to cause us to actually go through a period of strong economic growth are politically extremely unlikely.

I'm not predicting strong growth -- just gradual, mild growth.

1. you won't get more revenue by raising nominal tax rates. you get it by increasing growth. nominal income tax rates have varied wildly over the last half century or so, but have demonstrated very little actual direct connection to revenues, and only moderate indirect connection to revenues through the mechanism of their ability to effect.... growth.

Absolute nonsense. Our taxes are far too low, and particularly on the top income groups. The could and should be raised to 60-70% on amounts over severl milion dollars. It would raise substantially more revenue.

2. the spending that will be cut (not "should be cut". "will be cut" - one way or the other) has to be significant, which means it has to come from medicare and social security, and it has to come from medicare soon. do you see democrats leaping on board with this, or do you see them riding this ship all the way down to the bottom of the sea? because frankly, we had one golden, moment of beautiful possibility when the Simpson-Bowles Commission came out with their report.... and Democrats uniformly wrecked it.

I agree that Medicare has to be reformed in a significant way, in addition to implementing significant cuts in military spending. It will happen when it absolutely has to happen and not before.

the housing market has further to fall, and as baby boomers retire and look to downsize their living accommodations, we will be left with a significant glut for years.

The housing market will probably start to recover in 2013 or 2014 -- right on time for the next President to claim credit.

the Euro is doomed for the simple enough reason that Greece (and Italys', and Spains', and Portugals', and others) deficits are demographically structural rather than the product of poor budgeting. Germany (which has now passed a balanced budget amendment) is not likely to commit national suicide in order to help them hang on another 10-15 years.

More nonsense. Greece has been ridiculously irresponsible in its budgeting. Italy and Spain have sustainable economies. They are suffering because of the severe recession, and because of speculators driving up their borrowing costs.

sure. Iran going nuclear and establishing regional hegemony in concordance with the Chinese efforts in the area will have no ill effects whatsoever. all those nations that just became more democratic will also be more peaceful, because if there is one thing we know about the arab population in the middle east, it is it's deep desire to live in brotherly friendship with Israel... who is armed with nukes.

Iran getting nukes wouldn't change anything, as they would never use them. There is no reason to believe that democratic governments in the ME -- assuming they even emerge -- will be less contentious than the autocrats they deposed. Too bad we don't have Saddam to counter Iran's influence, right?

sure, and that oil will flow... directly to China. whose self interest dictates that it will ensure this happens. with europe in shambles, Israel, Egypt, and Iran all playing mexican standoff, the US withdrawing due to budgetary constraints, and China pursuing a mercantilist foreign policy; who exactly is going to be stopping rogue pirates from attacking the oil trade? Oil from the ME will spike in price and lower in supply, meaning the US will either turn to domestic sources ricky ticky, or watch its' economy collapse further.

Rogue pirates? Really? :lol: China has every right to purchase oil on the open market, just as we do and just as Europe does.

agreed. the post-collapse world could see the final destruction of the notion that we can successfully run a corporatist welfare state; the America that rises from the ashes will face a weakened world less capable of opposing her efforts to bring them under a democratic hegemony. assuming, of course, that we are able to solve our internal contradictions to do so.

it's just going to take our own little mini-maybe-quarter-maybe-half-century Dark Age to get there. hooray?

Calm down, Chicken Little. You've been listening to WAY too much Glenn Beck. In two years the unemployment rate will be 7.5% or lower, GDP will be between 3-3.5%, the housing market will start to revive, and President Obama will get the credit he deserves.
 
The economy has gotten better, without question, relative to what we were experiencing a few short years ago.

generally we've flatlined. all the increases have been in productivity, not necessarily production.

We should be doing more stimulus, but that's unlikely.

and thank goodness. massive shifting of resources from the private to the public sector is a huge source of why we haven't recovered.

Even without it the economy will move toward a better equilibrium as pent-up business and consumer demand ramp up and as the stock of defaulted property works its way through the market.

where is this magical consumer demand going to come from? our consumers are heavily leveraged, and still deeply underwater. 2006 wasn't the natural state of the consumer economy - that was us on a methamphetamine high. defaulted property is still mass-owned by the government (and when they sell it - which eventually they will have to - housing will go down again)

I'm not predicting strong growth -- just gradual, mild growth.

which is insufficient to do anything other than leave us treading water until the baby boomers crash the entitlement system. here in about 6-10 years.

Absolute nonsense. Our taxes are far too low, and particularly on the top income groups

actually America has the most progressive income tax system in the industrialized world

irrespective, if our rates were higher, we wouldn't be pulling in any more revenue. look for yourself:

ADavies-marginal-income-tax-rates-5-PDF.jpg


static scoring of tax increases or cuts is nothing more than moonshine for the simple enough reason that people respond to changing incentives. when you hike taxes on top income earners, you simply give them powerful incentives to minimize their tax exposure rather than behave in the productive (ie: good for the rest of us) ways that caused them to become top income earners.

The could and should be raised to 60-70% on amounts over severl milion dollars. It would raise substantially more revenue.

wrong, because people will follow their incentives, and the wealthy are the ones best positioned to do so. states that attempt to close their budget gaps by taxing the wealthy extra have only seen revenue fall as the wealthy follow their incentives - leaving state budgets worse off than they began again and again and again.

I agree that Medicare has to be reformed in a significant way, in addition to implementing significant cuts in military spending.

this is incorrect - our economy is dependent upon global trade, and global trade is underpinned by the security provided by the US Military. You draw back from a forward leaning defense posture as you are suggesting, and our global trade will collapse, leading not only to much misery, pain, and loss, here, but also a follow-on loss of revenues greater than your 'saved' previous expenditures. it's the fiscal equivalent of eating seed corn.

It will happen when it absolutely has to happen and not before.

which means that, like Greece, we will have to start cutting benefits and throwing off current retirees. boomers are not exactly known as a generation for their selfless desire to give of themselves to help out future generations, and us putting off the inevitable means that not only will we be significantly more constrained in our available options, but we will spark at best a deep generational conflict within our body politic. so yeah. that'll turn out well.

The housing market will probably start to recover in 2013 or 2014

what information are you basing that analysis on?

More nonsense. Greece has been ridiculously irresponsible in its budgeting. Italy and Spain have sustainable economies.

Greece has been irresponsible; however, it, Italy, and Spain do not have sustainable economies, for the simple enough reason that they have neglected to produce enough people to 'sustain' them. You need a fertility rate of 2.1 in order to just maintain your populace. no society has ever dipped below 1.8 and come back. Greece, Italy, and Spain are all sitting at about 1.4, and have been for decades. this ponzi scheme that we in the west call our retirement entitlements is utterly dependent upon a larger generation each generation of new workers to fund the old - and the Club Med countries have forgotten to have one. Boomers largely dicked the dog on this as well (though not as bad as they), which is why we, too, are in for severe trouble with our entitlement system.

Iran getting nukes wouldn't change anything, as they would never use them.

yes they absolutely would. for the simple enough reason that these are people who really truly believe that doing so would unite the Islamic world under their banner, reinstituting the Caliphate under the newly arrived 13th Imam, who would launch the final (successful) war to conquer the unbelievers and unite the world under the banner of Islam. As the protector of the Holy City of Qom, and neighbor to the Holy City of Najaf, and (under the new leadership) protector of the Holy Cities of Mecca, Medina, and Jerusalem, Allah would protect the Iranian regime from any counterstrike. yes. they actually really truly do believe this.

let me draw this out in a little more detail for you:

1. the Middle East remains a strategic center of gravity in the world for two major reasons: the oil and the canal, and huge chunks of the world economy are dependent on both of those. instability in the region threatens those two facets, thus threatening the world (and our) economy.

2. the Middle East is inherently unstable, as demonstrated by nothing better than recent events. Tyrannical governments keep their populace in line with the stick of the mukhaberat and the carrot of the welfare state based on revenues generated from nationalized resources (read: oil and the Suez). But that rentier state carrot is intensely vulnerable to falling revenues and - as the Iranian Shah and Mubarak learned to their chagrin - can rapidly inspire revolution followed by replacement by radical (and themselves inherently destabilizing) elements. Internally, the Middle East is a bubbling cauldron, and the resources upon which much of the worlds' economy is based right there in the middle.

Internationally, among the Sunnis, Egypt and Saudi Arabia both consider themselves the natural leaders, and have already proven willing in Yemen to shoot at each other over that disagreement. The Iraqi's also consider themselves the natural leader of the Arab world, but lately they haven't been a serious contender. The Saudis are currently attempting to take control over the region through the exportation of Wahabism, which is itself inherently destabilizing, as it preaches the overthrow of the National-Socialist model governments left over from the 60's and 70's in Egypt (check) and Pakistan, (as well, obviously, as the democracy - as much as it exists - in Lebanon and in Israel) followed by the violent unification of the region under a single banner, followed by an invasion of the rest of the world. They aren't kidding about that part, and we are idiots if we fail to take them at their word, especially as they seem to have just succeeded in part A of step 1, the removal of the Mubarak regime.

The Iranians are the largest terror-exporting nation in the world, and they are very, very good at it. The IRGC, and in particular the Quds forces, have fostered the growth of Hezbollah (the real deadliest terrorist network in the world - Al Quada was their student, not the other way around), Hamas, and even (through proxies) Al Quada. They are currently waging a campaign to destroy the Lebanese government, attacking us in Afghanistan, seeking to gain hegemonic influence over Iraq, and are strengthening ties with Syria and Turkey in an attempt to build a base with which to challenge the US and Saudi Arabia for dominance of the region. Part of that struggle (they assume) including the destruction of Israel. The leadership of that nation Really Believes that the 13th Imam is coming soon, and that they must kick off international Jihad in order for him to arrive and bring about the End Times - and again, we are fools if we fail to take them at their word on that.

3. the region, thus, needs an overpowering, hegemon if it is to remain stable enough to ensure the non-collapse of the world economy. Someone has to impose order and keep these nutjobs from destroying the ability of the world to access the oil and the suez. There is only one nation currently on the planet with the capacity to perform this task: the US. The US Fifth Fleet, currently headuquartered in Bahrain, is the major (and perhaps only realistic) force for stability in that region, contending with numerous, powerful forces for instability.

4. Withdrawal or severe downdrawl of US Forces would create a power vacuum and kick off fights within the sunni community and between Iran and Saudi Arabia for regional dominance. Shiite Iran is seeking to get nukes. Syria has had a nuclear facility already destroyed by the Israelis. Sunni Pakistan (see: Wahhabi plans for governments, the overthrow and replacement of) already has them. In the face of a US Withdrawal, Saudi Arabia certainly would start developing her own.

Imagine a Mexican standoff, except that 3 of the 4 players are A) paranoid schizophrenics facing opponents they violently hate, B) convinced that death will be a net benefit for them, C) convinced that their souls are in peril if they don't shoot, and D) potentially armed with nukes (the 4th Player is the unfortunately-located Israel). I think everyone here can agree that that is not a "stable" situation, particularly when you add in E) these countries are not internally stable, and may feel forced into an external war in order to solidify domestic support and F) at least two of the players (Iran and Saudi Arabia) are held hostage by their own extremists, who feel free to act without permission, are nearly impossible to stop, and are most desirous of the conflict. And I feel that A) deserves rementioning.


realistically speaking, our best case scenario in a US withdrawal from the region in the face of Iranian nuclear development is that China takes the region in hand and merely diverts all of it's oil to itself; thereby only partially collapsing the world economy. I didn't say I think that's likely - I just said that if we are stupid enough to do that, then that's the best end result left.
 
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There is no reason to believe that democratic governments in the ME -- assuming they even emerge -- will be less contentious than the autocrats they deposed

that is unfortunately incorrect. Islamists seem poised to take power in Libya and Egypt. the loss of Egypt is particularly problematic, as that was the regime that was most at peace with Israel. the emerging populist forces in that nation are far more desirous of armed conflict (and certainly more likely to support Islamsit terrorist elements) than the dictatorship they are replacing. 54% of them want to end their peace treaty with Israel effective immediately.

Too bad we don't have Saddam to counter Iran's influence, right?

no, that's why we were trying to leave a successful democratic ally in the region until our Most Intelligent President In History completely utterly ****ed up a simple SOFA negotiation.

Rogue pirates? Really?

:) yes really.


lol. hahaha. rolf. lmao. tee hee. otheruselessacronyms.

al-Shabab (based in Somalia) is now the worlds most expansive Al Qaeda affiliate.

China has every right to purchase oil on the open market, just as we do and just as Europe does.

that is correct, but China is not interested in an open market, they are mercantilists.

Calm down, Chicken Little. You've been listening to WAY too much Glenn Beck.

I live in Japan. when Glenn Beck was on, he was on television at about 2 am here, and I don't get television in my house. suffice to say, I wasnt' watching.

but hey, out of curiousity, wasn't Glenn Beck the guy who told everyone to get out of the stock market in early 2007, suggested buying gold, predicted that the Fed would print alot of money in a (failed) attempt to push on economic string, predicted that commodity prices (such as for food) would start rising higher than core inflation, and then at the end finally said that we were going to see a bottom up riot movement in our streets attempt to form? gosh, what a horrible track record that guy has, huh?

In two years the unemployment rate will be 7.5% or lower,

in order for our unemployment rate to be below 7.5% in two years, we need to start adding about 400,000 jobs a month every month between now and then. when that starts happening, you let me know.

GDP will be between 3-3.5%

and what macroeconomic shift are you predicting will occur to cause this to happen? I can think of a few things which, put together, might get us there, but they are extremely unlikely in the current political climate.

the housing market will start to revive,

the housing market is about to dip again, and will continue to dip every time the government releases one of the holds that it put in there to try to "save" it. it has yet to find it's natural bottom, and is currently being artificially propped up. at some point soon the baby boomers are going to start downsizing homes and the government will have to divest from fannie and freddie, and they will have to sell the massive numbers of excess housing currently on government books. our young should be the natural buyers, but oh wait, they're all loaded up with student and credit card debt, and can't afford a house.

realistically, we are going to be in a housing glut for years.

and President Obama will get the credit he deserves.

one day that is my fervent hope.
 
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Absolute nonsense. Our taxes are far too low, and particularly on the top income groups. The could and should be raised to 60-70% on amounts over severl milion dollars. It would raise substantially more revenue.
The taxes are too low, but you can't avoid increasing taxes on the middle class. Raising the marginal tax rate to 60-70% will just make them leave. They are very mobile.

You should rather reverse Bush tax cuts. That will increase taxes on everyone, and bring in 350 billions in revenue. If that is combined with cuts, the budget will be balanced in 2016.

The housing market will probably start to recover in 2013 or 2014 -- right on time for the next President to claim credit.
No one really cares. What he really needs to get down, is the unemployment rate.

Iran getting nukes wouldn't change anything, as they would never use them. There is no reason to believe that democratic governments in the ME -- assuming they even emerge -- will be less contentious than the autocrats they deposed. Too bad we don't have Saddam to counter Iran's influence, right?
Iran won't use them, but they can sell them off to terrorist groups who can blackmail the US.

Rogue pirates? Really? :lol: China has every right to purchase oil on the open market, just as we do and just as Europe does.
Agree, the GOP bashing of China is ridiculous. I can not believe Romney can get away with his trade war statement.

Calm down, Chicken Little. You've been listening to WAY too much Glenn Beck. In two years the unemployment rate will be 7.5% or lower, GDP will be between 3-3.5%, the housing market will start to revive, and President Obama will get the credit he deserves.
Obama hasn't done anything. Any economy will rebound eventually. Don't think he will get much credit, because the unemployment rate will remain high.

There is a joker here, that the Fed isn't anticipating. That is Europe. Europe is heading towards another recession. The impact will happen when Greece default, which they will guaranteed and credit default swaps will be activated. This will impact the US and reduce US growth rate for 2013.
 
There is a joker here, that the Fed isn't anticipating. That is Europe. Europe is heading towards another recession. The impact will happen when Greece default, which they will guaranteed and credit default swaps will be activated. This will impact the US and reduce US growth rate for 2013.

truth. but hey - at least we're not massively on the hook to make good on those CDO's when the beast goes belly up, eh?


oh..... wait...... :(


Federal Reserve Now Backstopping $75 Trillion Of Bank Of America's Derivatives Trades


yeah. no possible way this goes badly. it's all gonna be unicorn sunshine and rainbow kisses from here on out.
 
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And Paul cannot get over 10 % in polls. RCP has him at 8.2 % and trending slightly down. If Paul ever becomes a significant candidate, he might get coverage.

Why is it that you cannot recognize that the latter has an indisputable impact on the former? Cain's only in a top poll position now because the media went gangbusters over his Florida straw poll victory. Do you think Paul would be in the position he is in now if the media were covering him like they covered Cain after that straw poll? I just saw an article in Time magazine suggesting that Rick Santorum could become a serious contender for the nomination, despite the fact that the guy is polling around 1%. How many articles do you see in the major press suggesting Paul even has a chance of seriously contending the nomination despite consistently placing third in Iowa polls?

The biggest stories I have been finding on Ron Paul recently are generally either hit pieces or speculation about third-party runs with any other significant coverage being in less prominent news outlets. Do you not find that bizarre? Saying he needs to become a significant candidate is absurd because not only is he already a significant candidate, he is getting less media coverage than people who have consistently polled well below him.

The question on Paul is - will he run third party if Romney is the candidate?

What I find revealing is the way the media pushes something despite all the evidence that it will not take place. The conspicuous surge of media coverage about a Ron Paul third-party run reminds me of how the media kept pushing this idea that Chris Christie would run for the nomination despite his dogged insistence that he would never do it. Although it may simply be about keeping Ron Paul's vote suppressed, there may also be a strong desire to see him run for the Libertarian Party so that they can point to it and say "he is no Republican" and then convincingly dismiss all his views as outside the mainstream. Either way they can sideline any discussion about him and his proposals to focus on the establishment flavor of the week.
 
The taxes are too low, but you can't avoid increasing taxes on the middle class. Raising the marginal tax rate to 60-70% will just make them leave. They are very mobile.

They aren't going to pick up and move to Europe -- at least not many of them.

You should rather reverse Bush tax cuts. That will increase taxes on everyone, and bring in 350 billions in revenue. If that is combined with cuts, the budget will be balanced in 2016.

Yes, that should happen, too.

No one really cares. What he really needs to get down, is the unemployment rate.

The housing/real estate market is directly tied to our unemployment problem. The industry supports millions of jobs directly and indirectly. If it was even half recovered the unemployment rate would drop substantially.

Iran won't use them, but they can sell them off to terrorist groups who can blackmail the US.

Why would they do that?

Obama hasn't done anything. Any economy will rebound eventually. Don't think he will get much credit, because the unemployment rate will remain high.

Obama has done about as much as he can do, given the fact that he gets essentially no support from Republicans. He managed to get through a large stimulus package that saw us through the worst part of the recession. He saved GM and Chrysler. He's lowered taxes and extended unemployment benefits. There's really not much else he can do unless he gets at least minimal support from across the aisle.

Whoever is in office when the recovery picks up steam will get credit. The electorate is not entirely rational ... and that's being generous.

There is a joker here, that the Fed isn't anticipating. That is Europe. Europe is heading towards another recession. The impact will happen when Greece default, which they will guaranteed and credit default swaps will be activated. This will impact the US and reduce US growth rate for 2013.

The Fed is accutely aware of what is going on in Europe. It's been driving our own slowdown for the better part of a year. Greece may or may not default, but in any case they are taking precautions to avoid a domino effect.
 
They aren't going to pick up and move to Europe -- at least not many of them.
Not them, their money are. :lol:

In fact some of them are going to move, because 60-70% tax rates is higher than any country in the world and rich people are very mobile, but there are many ways to avoid taxes. Not all of them are illegal btw.

The housing/real estate market is directly tied to our unemployment problem. The industry supports millions of jobs directly and indirectly. If it was even half recovered the unemployment rate would drop substantially.
True. But for election purposes, unemployment is the key and there are other ways to reduce unemployment.

Why would they do that?
Have you listened to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? For instance he said this
Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation's fury.

He would love to see a nuclear bomb go off in the US, but he can't do it himself.

Obama has done about as much as he can do, given the fact that he gets essentially no support from Republicans. He managed to get through a large stimulus package that saw us through the worst part of the recession. He saved GM and Chrysler. He's lowered taxes and extended unemployment benefits. There's really not much else he can do unless he gets at least minimal support from across the aisle.

Whoever is in office when the recovery picks up steam will get credit. The electorate is not entirely rational ... and that's being generous.
Obama could have done a lot more if he had a different negotiation tactic. Why do you think voters accept Republican tactics? Because they absolutely hate Obama.

Do you remember what he did 2 years ago? He didn't start up with reaching an arm to the other side. He started with a leftist agenda, and when he couldn't even get that through his own party, then he moved right. That is the best way to make the opposition hate your proposals. What about when he passed the bill, he decided to remove the Stupak-Pitts Amendment and lie that his bill won't fund abortions. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

What about when we had the budget debate. He started out with, I won't cut a dime. Then when he got no support, he called Republicans irresponsible for not letting him spend like a drunken sailor. Of course Republicans should have combined increased taxes with spending, but Obama would have a lot more credibility if he started up with credible cuts.

Obama's way of handling the economy has caused a lot of insecurity. The economy could have recovered much faster.

The Fed is accutely aware of what is going on in Europe. It's been driving our own slowdown for the better part of a year. Greece may or may not default, but in any case they are taking precautions to avoid a domino effect.
Really?

Do you know what the fed predicted on 2007? In 2007, everyone knew the crisis was coming. Everyone that knew anything about the topic, also knew the crisis would be much deeper than Feds predictions of a slowdown from 2.6% to 1.6%. In fact GDP was first flat (which means reduction when you adjust for population) and then fell by 3-4%.

There was signs of this coming in 2000, where they prevented a crisis by fueling the bouble. They knew that wasn't sustainable. The fed is not predicting the correct numbers, they are predicting what Obama wants to hear and what he can sell to the public. Fed is not independent in practice.
 
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