For people who keep talking about how/what/when TM or Z should have acted

Here is a quick tip in self-defense. This isn't about the case, this is to give a factual informations about the reality of a street engagement.

These are the guidelines:

1. Most street engagements are quick. they end in 10-15s tops and there are no rules regarding how they can go down.
2. If you are outnumbered, you are usually going to lose no matter what martial arts or self-defense or fighting skills you think you have. Your only advantage is if YOU take them by surprise.
3. If the other guy is armed and you're not, you will most likely be a victim. Given the fact that you almost never know ahead of time in a street fight if the other guy is armed until it's too late, always assume that he is. So always assume that if you do get into a conflict which you can't get out, you need to be extra careful because you may become a victim.
4. Just because you were the first to hit the other guy, doesn't mean you will win.

Given these 4 guidelines, we, dear DPers, responsible citizens, if we have the chance or opportunity to run, we always run.

There is also another important fact about street fights. Most can be avoided. Unless someone has something personal with you, you can run away and avoid the fight. If he is desperate, then you are in a bigger problem, but you can still run away. If he has something personal with you, he will pursue you for a long time, relentlessly, in which case, running aimlessly is not an option, but run for safety. Usually people who have something personal with you are people you at least know from somewhere or they know you.

Now, there are cases when you cannot run from a conflict.
Street fights are crazy. There are no rules, no laws and the only thing that gives you a fighting chance, a small one, and smaller with every disadvantage you face, is muscle memory. But... Just because you are a world class boxer, doesn't mean a stupid 15yrs old kid won't kill you.

If you are unarmed.

If he wants your money, give him your money. If he wants your watch, give him your watch. Anything to avoid the fight. If you need to protect your life, fight dirty. Use anything you have at your disposal. Dissimulate if you can. Pretend you cry. Say things like: "I will give you anything you want, just please don't kill me, I have a daughter and my mother is in the hospital". Even if it's not true. Anything to soften him up. Meanwhile, you look for anything you can use as a weapon. Anything and when you have an opening, you strike fast and relentlessly until he's down. Then you run.

If you are armed. I suggest always having one of these on you because any criminal will have them. Easy to conceal, one good hit and you can knock his teeth out.

Alternatively, if you want to ensure that you won't become a victim, better carry one of these:


Now carrying a gun is not always the best way to go about thing. It's predictable. People will know what to look for and chances are, if you didn't draw your gun in time, and he did, you will become a victim. Most of the cases, that happens. OR if he is already aiming at you with a gun, even if you are the fastest gun drawer in the west, you'll still become a victim.

So these are my tips on how to not to become a victim.
So first rule, always avoid conflict. Run if you can. If you are alone or with a friend that can run fast... run. There is no shame. You don't lose face. It's the best course of action.

If you have to fight for your life or the life of others, use anything you can, and are unarmed. If they are distracted and don't see you, sneak up behind them and ambush them. Don't spare anything, let it all out. Your objective is to neutralize the threat in under 2s before they realize what is happening. If not, use dissimulation while you look for a weapon, anything that can be used a weapon.
+If you can get out of it by cooperating (giving money, watch, phone) do it.

If you have to fight and have a weapon, use it, even if you don't see him having one, it doesn't mean he doesn't have one.

I'd have to refute one point, a gun was quite useful in many scenarios that have occurred in my local area. In one event, two groups of people "2-3 in each group" were intending to fight each other with melee weapons including bats, brass knuckles, etc. The disagreement occurred around the back area of a gas station parking lot, enough shouting was exchanged to alert an individual filling up his car with gas. Said person happened to be carrying a handgun "I don't know the caliber", and wandered around back, dispelling the would-be physical confrontation by putting an unbiased and deadly 3rd party factor into the scuffle. True, a gun isn't %100 insurance if you are being attacked, but it's much more useful than a knife if you're trying to break up a dispute or assisting someone who is being robbed/beaten.

Pretty sure brass knuckles are illegal in my state.

Brass knuckles are prohibited by law where I live.

Fisher said:

Pretty sure brass knuckles are illegal in my state.

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Carrying brass knuckles is illegal most places. I can carry a gun legally.

shlunka said:

I'd have to refute one point, a gun was quite useful in many scenarios that have occurred in my local area. In one event, two groups of people "2-3 in each group" were intending to fight each other with melee weapons including bats, brass knuckles, etc. The disagreement occurred around the back area of a gas station parking lot, enough shouting was exchanged to alert an individual filling up his car with gas. Said person happened to be carrying a handgun "I don't know the caliber", and wandered around back, dispelling the would-be physical confrontation by putting an unbiased and deadly 3rd party factor into the scuffle. True, a gun isn't %100 insurance if you are being attacked, but it's much more useful than a knife if you're trying to break up a dispute or assisting someone who is being robbed/beaten.

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I agree. But the idea is that you have to be able to draw in time. Now you described a case in particular and yes, that's true. But just like you gave 1 case, I can think of 100 kind of situations where a gun will do diddly squat.

Again, if you have time to draw, a gun is great. But in order to be in a position to draw your gun you need to either anticipate that something bad is going to go down or be a third party element which is not involved in the conflict directly. This is the case you described. I was talking about how individuals who are the object of violence can act in order to prevent, or decrease the chances, of becoming a victim.

Most of the times a criminal element will just come to you and ask you to give him a light while his buddy coms in the back and put a knife to your back or your throat and ask you to give up all your possessions. In such a case, there is nothing you can do but give him your money and your watch and hope you don't die.

X Factor said:

Brass knuckles are prohibited by law where I live.

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Fisher said:

Pretty sure brass knuckles are illegal in my state.

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firearms, knives and brass knuckles are illegal where I live. You know what else is illegal? Violent assault. Murder. Theft.

I still carry something, usually the brass knuckle or an extendable baton when I'm going out to some late at night to a place where violence has been known to occur. And I live in a very peaceful city, I mean... not much happens here.

Rainman05 said:

firearms, knives and brass knuckles are illegal where I live. You know what else is illegal? Violent assault. Murder. Theft.

I still carry something, usually the brass knuckle or an extendable baton when I'm going out to some late at night to a place where violence has been known to occur. And I live in a very peaceful city, I mean... not much happens here.

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Fair enough. Actually it is a little funny that it's legal to carry a gun but not knuckles or switchblades. Some legislatures apparently thought real life was like "West Side Story".

Goshin said:

Carrying brass knuckles is illegal most places. I can carry a gun legally.

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This is why I think legislature, at any level or in any place, has no business regulating what small arms people can own and carry. None of the laws they make are based in any kind of reasonable logic.

"Brass knuckle" type weapons are a felony in some states to possess.

I think small slasher-type knives are more harm than good, and most people should not rely on a knife for self defense. A knife used by most people stops no one and the better fighter of the two (or luckier one) is who is going to ultimately end up with the knife. I think this is particularly true for women - do NOT rely on a knife. A knife will more likely be used on her by the attacker in the end.

I completely agree with the OP's "run" claim. There are billions of people, so what do you care if someone thinks you were afraid? You CAN NOT 'WIN" a fight with a stranger, you can only not lose it - since you gain nothing by prevailing in the fight itself.

I don't think begging for mercy or crying is always the right choice. Sadists and psychotics want that, they want the desperation and fear. Generally, I think emotions-neutral would be a better route to follow.

I don't agree with give someone making a threat/demand anything the person wants, but I am big on people not taking my possessions and short of having a gun there are few who could do so - though the passage of time and aging certainly will change that.

I WANT my wife to always carry a significant sum of cash and in easily dumpable forum - literally if she flips a side flap on her purse a bunch of 10s, 20s and hundreds "accidently" spills out. That is the ultimate diversion. She is small and seems likely vulnerable, but of an extreme athletic past and with extreme developed precision and speed skills, but a quick thinker. She also is virtually always CCW and is the fastest person I've ever seen. An armed mugger or even more than one - if they looked and reached down momentarily for that money they are dead - twice in the head, once in the chest. Even if unarmed, give her a 1/10th of a second and she's the 99 lb heavyweight champ.

HERE is the REAL factor people cannot factor. The "startle" and "panic" effect. IE inexperience. The human brain in "new" situations is extremely slow. By the time someone sees/hears something of extreme stress, the brain processes what that means and calculates what to do, and then sends the not-light-speed signal the muscles and the muscles do their thing is VERY delayed.

When I used to train (rare) and for my wife's training, it went beyond skills and learning what should be done, but to actually do it situational over and over and over, as many different variations as possible - as realistic as possible in every way. Even with special load "paint" bullet ammo - for her and armed assailants - to know how it would have turned out. The goal was to replace calculating with automatic instinct - to not have to think of what to do because she's already done it dozens of times before.

That's why most this talk of what to do doesn't count for much. A person doesn't know what he/she will do until it happens. That also is why experienced fighters - particularly street fighters - usually will prevail over someone even much stronger and with martial arts training.

This also is what was extremely annoying in these debates - people claiming that GZ wasn't seriously hurt. The word the always leave off that is at the end..."wasn't seriously hurt YET."

Consider any attack by a stranger as a deadly attack - armed or unarmed.

Viktyr Gehrig said:

This is why I think legislature, at any level or in any place, has no business regulating what small arms people can own and carry. None of the laws they make are based in any kind of reasonable logic.

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RIght or wrong, there are 2 reasons certain weapons are banned. One is they are associated with organized crime.

But the more significant reason is way back when particularly with limited medical options, some weapons more disfigured, crippled and/or mutilated a person. Thus, the view was that a DEADLY WEAPON SHOULD BE DEADLY.

Cutting weapons? They permanently cripple or disable, but don't necessarily kill. If your arm was chopped with a sword, you would have the arm - but it was dead. Same for facial injuries - they could not be fixes - and brass knuckles obliterate a face.

One the most brutal attacks I heard of where there was some remote connection to those involved, was a planned punitive attack by 3 men against 1 in which they "de-winged" their target. That meant using a sharp narrow knife to jam it up into the target's arm pits to cut all ligaments and nerves to both arms, but not severing the arms, to leave the target with two dead arms. Personally, I see that as a more horrific assault than if they had executed him with a bullet to the head.

I view assaults/crimes of sadism, disfigurement, torture as more "criminal" and evil than summary murder. I would be more sympathetic of a situation if two men were in an escalating violent fight and one shot the other, than if one cut off the other one's hands or gouged out his eyes.