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What if Trayvon..............

YoungConserv said:
I think it had more to do with the fact he had the in his system making him paranoid which lead to him see a danger where there was none and fear calling the cops.
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My personal opinion is that pot had very little to do with it. I don't know the science behind it but I do have some "hands on" experience with the stuff (from decades ago) and unless you're still high the paranoia factor just isn't there. They may be smoking something different now but back in the day the effect was something like "Wow, I could listen to that guitar solo for 3 more hours and not get bored! Frampton is a god!" to "Gee, that cheese isn't too fuzzy and I am kind of hungry" to "Well, if we're out then I'm going to take a nap. Catch you in an hour or so." The paranoia really only came up when I had to do a class presentation or if there were flashing lights in my rear view mirror and even at that, it was over and done within a few hours of having smoked.
 
Goshin said:
Either man could likely have avoided this situation by applying a little common sense and self-restraint to their actions that night, but neither did. :shrug:


Primary blame, though, has to go to the person who initiated the physical combat... which available evidence indicates was TM. :shrug:
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Agreed except that it doesn't even have to be the one that initiated contact. We have 40+ seconds of screaming which indicate that somebody was very, very scared so even if Zimmerman coldcocked Martin to begin with it would have been Martin on Zimmerman and not letting up. That continuance of aggression with no evidence that such aggression was being returned by the other party is, to my mind, the determining factor. What I'm getting at is that if Martin also had evidence of being hit I'd chalk it up to some mutual aggression and Zimmerman may have overreacted but since Martin's body showed no evidence of having been physically accosted everything swings back to Zimmerman's story being factual.
 
Goshin said:
Either man could likely have avoided this situation by applying a little common sense and self-restraint to their actions that night, but neither did. :shrug:


Primary blame, though, has to go to the person who initiated the physical combat... which available evidence indicates was TM. :shrug:
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What available evidence is that?

Oh ya, the shooter.
 
spanky said:
What available evidence is that?

Oh ya, the shooter.
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and the shooter's injuries, and the testimony of an eyewitness as to who was on top, and TM's lack of brawling-type injuries, as well as Zim's testimony.
 
spanky said:
What available evidence is that?

Oh ya, the shooter.
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Dude.... Z needs ONLY to show some flimsy evidence to get the instruction

The bottom line is..... the lack evidence that would justify M’s physical attack on Z has complicated your quest to put Z behind bars

There's just too much doubt
 
spanky said:
I'm not sure what trial you are watching.

There was only one live witness who testified about what was said and that relfected;

"Why you following me for?"

"What are you doing around here?"
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It is in all Zimmerman's statements. I am sorry but Rachel Jeantel has no more credibility than Z, and he was actually there, not on the phone. So I will go with his statement rather than made up hogwash.
 
Goshin said:
Either man could likely have avoided this situation by applying a little common sense and self-restraint to their actions that night, but neither did. :shrug:


Primary blame, though, has to go to the person who initiated the physical combat... which available evidence indicates was TM. :shrug:
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In most cases that should be true. But what if I come up to you and let you know I have gun and appear ready to use it on you. Do you have a right to try and take that gun away from me?
 
A real "what if" political question is "what if Florida was an open carry" state. Would Martin have approached GZ and slammed him in the face?
 
Mathematician said:
More precisely, TM was a black teenager whose parents didn't teach him worth a **** that being a hoodlum will only get you into trouble.
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What does the color of his skin have to do with it? I would have agreed if you had left that part out.
 
Crosscheck said:
In most cases that should be true. But what if I come up to you and let you know I have gun and appear ready to use it on you. Do you have a right to try and take that gun away from me?
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Depends on the circumstances. Simply saying "I have a gun" is not assault nor justification for attack by itself. Saying "I have a gun and I'm willing to use it" isn't necessarily assault unless it is accompanied by other threat behavior of a criminal nature.

To be assault, there must be a clear threat, that is an expression of intent or jeopardy behavior; there must be or be reasonably believed to be Ability to carry it out; there must be Opportunity to do so as well.

"I have a gun" is not usually going to be considered a clear threat, absent other factors.

Is there any evidence Z did any of this anyway?
 
joko104 said:
A real "what if" political question is "what if Florida was an open carry" state. Would Martin have approached GZ and slammed him in the face?
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Interesting point. Probably not.


However, while I have no objections whatsoever to legal open carry, I still would choose concealed for myself. Open carry may scare off the small fry and the mid-range opportunists and hotheads, and that may cover 90% of the opposition... but it also tips your hand to the heavy hitters and says "shoot that guy first".
 
davidtaylorjr said:
Don't forget if Martin hadn't been a pot head.
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What evidence do you have that this child was a pot head? What exactly does "being a pot head" say about a person? And is that something that makes them more worthy of being shot?
 
opendebate said:
What evidence do you have that this child was a pot head? What exactly does "being a pot head" say about a person? And is that something that makes them more worthy of being shot?
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Um it was part of the evidence actually....
 
CalGun said:
Ok, what if Trayvon and had said, excuse me sir why are you following me, and then said I'm heading to my dad's girl friends house can you help me find it?

Instead of punching Zimmerman in the nose and jump on top of him?

I dare say we'd never have heard their names.
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Seriously, Zimmerman was hunting him. How in the world could you hold a 17yr old child accountable for being afraid when he sees someone coming after him like that.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
So true. But he was a little punk who was routinely up to no good.
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That's disgusting. This child is a punk who is up to no good?? How can you make such a claim. First of all, all 17yr olds are punks. Secondly, Zimmerman was the adult here. He should have behaved like one and like a cowboy.
 
opendebate said:
That's disgusting. This child is a punk who is up to no good?? How can you make such a claim. First of all, all 17yr olds are punks. Secondly, Zimmerman was the adult here. He should have behaved like one and like a cowboy.
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He did act like an adult. The kid jumped him, not the other way around.
 
Black Manta said:
Pretty much says it all to me. Nothing Zimmerman, had done up to that point should have got him assaulted.

I have one question though, a little off topic but...

If Martin who had a cell phone was so concerned about the "creepy ass cracker." Why didn't he just call 911 instead of attacking Z?
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Because he was an innocent 17 year old boy taking short cut through a neighborhood and had no reason to suspect some idiot that wanted to play cowboy would hunt him down like a criminal. Even if you are right and Trayvon was not the model teenager, Zimmerman knew nothing about this child other than the color of his skin.
 
opendebate said:
Because he was an innocent 17 year old boy taking short cut through a neighborhood and had no reason to suspect some idiot that wanted to play cowboy would hunt him down like a criminal. Even if you are right and Trayvon was not the model teenager, Zimmerman knew nothing about this child other than the color of his skin.
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#1 I never said anything about Martins charactor at all.
#2 He said and I quote "I am being followed by some creepy ass cracker." So anyone with common sense would call the police.

Now if you had bothered to check the other replys rather than make a knee jerk reaction. You would have seen your rant was wrong and pointless.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
Um it was part of the evidence actually....
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What evidence. The evidence I heard was that there were such insignificant amounts in his system at the time that it was not considered a factor.
 
opendebate said:
What evidence. The evidence I heard was that there were such insignificant amounts in his system at the time that it was not considered a factor.
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But it was in his system. You asked how I could categorize him as a pot head.
 
You have no idea Zimmerman was "hunting him" that is pathetic.

And we do know TM was a punk kid with a back ground of no good. Suspended from school, hi like obama on the shrooms, involved in fighting, wanting to buy a gun, gang connections, stolen property in his possssion, yeah the KID WAS and the only reason the judge won't allow the jury to know he was a PUNK is because there is no way Zimmerman could have known.


opendebate said:
That's disgusting. This child is a punk who is up to no good?? How can you make such a claim. First of all, all 17yr olds are punks. Secondly, Zimmerman was the adult here. He should have behaved like one and like a cowboy.
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davidtaylorjr said:
Hunting him? Where is the evidence of that? Don't make stuff up.
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He saw him walking through the neighborhood and decided he needed to take his gun and follow the kid. Then got out of his car "Zimmerman exited his vehicle, and after concluding his telephone call with police was involved in a violent encounter with Martin. The encounter ended with Zimmerman fatally shooting Martin once in the heart at close range." Zimmerman was on a personal errand and saw Trayvon walking around the neighborhood looking at all the houses and "acting suspicious" if it had been a clean cut white child I'm guessing Zimmerman would not have made the same assumptions about this child. Based purely on Trayvons actions there was no legitimate reason to suspect him.
 
opendebate said:
He saw him walking through the neighborhood and decided he needed to take his gun and follow the kid. Then got out of his car "Zimmerman exited his vehicle, and after concluding his telephone call with police was involved in a violent encounter with Martin. The encounter ended with Zimmerman fatally shooting Martin once in the heart at close range." Zimmerman was on a personal errand and saw Trayvon walking around the neighborhood looking at all the houses and "acting suspicious" if it had been a clean cut white child I'm guessing Zimmerman would not have made the same assumptions about this child. Based purely on Trayvons actions there was no legitimate reason to suspect him.
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You are bringing assumptions into your argument and racial issues. You are not giving the facts. Martin jumped Zimmerman, and was beating up Zimmerman, not the other way around.
 
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