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Judge bars audio experts from George Zimmerman trial who say screams were not Zimmerm

Re: Judge bars audio experts from George Zimmerman trial who say screams were not Zim

Ray410 said:
If somebody was going to shoot me, I wouldn't stand there screaming, I'd turn around and run. Maybe dodge to the side, something.

Particularly in this sort of case where it's obvious that Trayvon would be physically able to control the situation, i.e. Zman wouldn't have been able to stop him from running because of the size and physical ability difference.
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You are preaching to a group of people who are pushing an agenda, that have absolutely no interest in anything that gets in the way of that agenda, includes common sense or the truth.
 
Re: Judge bars audio experts from George Zimmerman trial who say screams were not Zim

Grim17 said:
Zimmerman, a man who had no idea who witnessed the events,
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Going to stop you right there. He certainly knew who he thought witnessed the events because he talked with them immediately afterwards. He could have easily smoothed his story to match what they were saying to him. But even still many of the witnesses contradict his story, which you're about to see starting Monday.

or if it had been video taped or recorded in some way, doesn't come out immediately and say he was screaming for help, and recall in detail pleading with a man who was there, to help him instead of calling 911...
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That witness does not corroborate this. He appears to have just made that part up.

Unless of course you have better knowledge of human behavior in a situation like that, the decades of law enforcement experience that examined this.
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The result of that experience was a charge of murder. So are we going by that or your own personal knowledge of human behavior?
 
Re: Judge bars audio experts from George Zimmerman trial who say screams were not Zim

Grim17 said:
Zimmerman, a man who had no idea who witnessed the events, or if it had been video taped or recorded in some way, doesn't come out immediately and say he was screaming for help, and recall in detail pleading with a man who was there, to help him instead of calling 911... Unless of course you have better knowledge of human behavior in a situation like that, the decades of law enforcement experience that examined this.
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Like the common human behavior of telling self-serving lies to cover up a crime?

Really... See post 20 and get back to me.
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I already responded to that post. And as you can see from my response, you're a little behind the curve on what it is witnesses are claiming.

It's a little know technique to Martin suporters, but one that those not on the "roast the racist" train are familiar with... It involves this thing called "common sense" combined with years of experience, sprinkled in with witnesses at the scene.
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Oh I see... so after it was determined by experts in a court of law that it is not possible to determine the identity of the screamer on the 911 tape, "common sense" will win the day.

Personally, I'll stick with facts and evidence. But good luck with your "common sense" approach.

No they didn't... They lost the ability to manipulate the jury with testimony that that the FBI has already determined can't be legitimate.
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You forgot to mention how they are railroading an innocent man, and that this case is the greatest travesty in the history of the criminal justice system, and possibly the greatest tragedy in the history of human events.

I mean, if you're going to devolve into histrionics, you might as well really go for it.

Do any of you Martin cheerleaders give a damn about honesty and the truth? Seriously?
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Yes.

You keep telling yourself that and it's only going to hurt that much more when you are faced with reality.
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That the identity of the screamer on the 911 call cannot be proven is the reality. The defense just demonstrated that quite clearly during the Frye hearing.
 
Re: Judge bars audio experts from George Zimmerman trial who say screams were not Zim

Anyone... And I mean ANYONE... That believes that a man (Zimmerman) who is on the ground with someone on top of him (Martin), that's beating the living crap out of him (substantiated by the injuries to him, and lack of injuries to Martin), who seriously thinks that the person screaming for help over and over and over again, is the guy on top who's inflicting the beating and not the guy who's being assaulted, is either a flat out liar who's pushing a political agenda, or is someone in need of an evaluation from experts at their local mental health care facility... There's just no other way I can think of that would explain such a complete abandonment of common sense by seemingly intelligence people... None.


You never know... Maybe I'm wrong here... So if anyone has a better reason that would logically explain this behavior, please let me know.
 
Re: Judge bars audio experts from George Zimmerman trial who say screams were not Zim

charlie hodge said:
Like the common human behavior of telling self-serving lies to cover up a crime?



I already responded to that post. And as you can see from my response, you're a little behind the curve on what it is witnesses are claiming.



Oh I see... so after it was determined by experts in a court of law that it is not possible to determine the identity of the screamer on the 911 tape, "common sense" will win the day.

Personally, I'll stick with facts and evidence. But good luck with your "common sense" approach.



You forgot to mention how they are railroading an innocent man, and that this case is the greatest travesty in the history of the criminal justice system, and possibly the greatest tragedy in the history of human events.

I mean, if you're going to devolve into histrionics, you might as well really go for it.



Yes.



That the identity of the screamer on the 911 call cannot be proven is the reality. The defense just demonstrated that quite clearly during the Frye hearing.
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And it should be noted that NONE of the witnesses are sure of who was screaming, since all of them say it was dark and they couldn't see more than two shapes on the ground. Austin Brown will say it was Martin doing the screaming:

Trayvon Martin Killing's Youngest Witness, 13, Still Can Hear The Screams

And so will Witness 18. But as you correctly point out, if audio analysis can't tell us who was screaming, certainly people who couldn't see the mouths of the two participants won't be able to tell us the same thing.

I think the only thing we'll get from that tape is that each side will claim the screams as theirs, and the jury will try to answer the only true question: if you can't tell who is screaming, what does it mean that the screams stopped when the gun fired? Whatever answer they come up with will likely sway their answer on who was screaming. And it will be further swayed by whether, by this time in the trial, they have come to distrust Zimmerman or not. If they are believing his story or are distrusting the prosecution, they'll lean towards his version of the 911 call.

However, if the state can show them that Zimmerman is a dishonest and scheming liar, then if he claims the screams as his own in contrast to even a handful of credible witnesses, they'll consider it just another lie.

My personal opinion is that this question -- is Zimmerman credible? -- is really the only question to answer since none of the witnesses saw enough to give conclusive testimony.
 
Re: Judge bars audio experts from George Zimmerman trial who say screams were not Zim

AlfredENeuman said:
Trayvon Martin Killing's Youngest Witness, 13, Still Can Hear The Screams
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The article states:

Both Austin and his mother are adamant that the teen could not see who was screaming, but they believe now that it was Martin.​

Gee, I wonder what it could be that make them believe it was Martin screaming rather than Zimmerman??

Let's just say this one goes in that pile with BET and the Judge... LMAO

edit: Add this from the article:

It was a rainy night, and the clouds hung low, muting the moonlight. For some reason, many of the neighbors had turned off their back porch lights. So he didn't see much, just someone lying on the ground and screaming.​


And who was it on the ground according to the boy:

 
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Re: Judge bars audio experts from George Zimmerman trial who say screams were not Zim

Grim17 said:
The article states:

Both Austin and his mother are adamant that the teen could not see who was screaming, but they believe now that it was Martin.​

Gee, I wonder what it could be that make them believe it was Martin screaming rather than Zimmerman??

Let's just say this one goes in that pile with BET and the Judge... LMAO
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So you're saying because he's black, he cannot be trusted?
 
Re: Judge bars audio experts from George Zimmerman trial who say screams were not Zim

>


Just to point out, the ruling only bars Mr. Owen and Dr. Reich's testimony.

It does not bar others from testifying.


So you might have two scenarios (there are more) where the defense calls the Zimmerman parents to the stand to ID the voice and the prosecution calls the Martin parents to the stand to ID the voice or the Zimmerman parents ID his voice and the prosecution calls the DEFENSE experts to testify they no identification is possible because of the short duration and low quality of the recording.


>>>>
 
Re: Judge bars audio experts from George Zimmerman trial who say screams were not Zim

Grim17 said:
Read the rest of what I posted...
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You hardly wrote anything, just that he belonged with BET and Judge Mathis in some sort of pile of African American tomfoolery. I'm sure that in your mind, Witness 8, Benjamin Crump, and the Martin family all get tossed into the same pile? I can only presume that you mean they all belong in a group together based on something they all have in common. Perhaps you don't realize how this sounds to people outside your circle of influence?
 
Re: Judge bars audio experts from George Zimmerman trial who say screams were not Zim

Leatherman now thinks the decision was great and did the prosecution a huge benefit. It always amazes me what the human brain is capable of in its ability to rationalize and deal with cognitive dissonance. It's truly something.
 
Re: Judge bars audio experts from George Zimmerman trial who say screams were not Zim

charlie hodge said:
And the prosecution can also bring in Zimmerman's inability to recognize what was supposedly his own voice while listening to the 911 call during his interview with Serino.
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Have you ever listened to your own voice on a recording? Very few people can recognize their own voice. To compound that, how many people have heard a recording of themselves screaming?
 
Re: Judge bars audio experts from George Zimmerman trial who say screams were not Zim

Grim17 said:
Anyone... And I mean ANYONE... That believes that a man (Zimmerman) who is on the ground with someone on top of him (Martin), that's beating the living crap out of him (substantiated by the injuries to him, and lack of injuries to Martin), who seriously thinks that the person screaming for help over and over and over again, is the guy on top who's inflicting the beating and not the guy who's being assaulted, is either a flat out liar who's pushing a political agenda, or is someone in need of an evaluation from experts at their local mental health care facility... There's just no other way I can think of that would explain such a complete abandonment of common sense by seemingly intelligence people... None.
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Zimmerman's defenders seem to love to use the circular logic of asserting Zimmerman's claims as fact to prove that he's telling the truth.

It is most definitely not an established fact that Martin was "beating the living crap" out of Zimmerman. And his injuries do not substantiate such a claim. Just like there are no witnesses who can reliably identify Zimmerman as the person screaming.

And of course the true test in determining all this is to simply look at how this case has played out so far.

I understand that in the fantasy realm in which the evidence clearly and unambiguously supports Zimmerman's version(s) of events, it seems obvious that he is innocent. But here in the real world, his lawyers have passed up on every opportunity to make that case an either get their client acquitted or simply have the charges dismissed.

No motions of dismissal were filed.

No immunity hearing was held.

Lawyers with clients who are innocent and have the evidence on their side don't needlessly go through expensive and risky trials.

Lawyers with clients who are innocent and have the evidence on their side don't fall back to a defensive position and just hope the prosecution can't make their case.

These lawyers avail themselves of the mechanisms within the law that exist for the express purpose of preventing innocent people with the evidence on their side from having to face murder trials.

And Team Zimmerman have availed themselves of exactly none of them.
 
Re: Judge bars audio experts from George Zimmerman trial who say screams were not Zim

CanadaJohn said:
Have you ever listened to your own voice on a recording? Very few people can recognize their own voice. To compound that, how many people have heard a recording of themselves screaming?
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I don't think it proves anything that Zimmerman said he didn't recognize his own voice.

Just like I don't think it proves anything that Tracy Martin said he didn't recognize his son's voice.

But in typical pro-Zimmerman double-standard fashion, that Martin didn't recognize his son's voice is rock-solid, damning evidence, while Zimmerman not recognizing his own is to be swept under the rug and ignored.
 
Re: Judge bars audio experts from George Zimmerman trial who say screams were not Zim

buck said:
Leatherman now thinks the decision was great and did the prosecution a huge benefit. It always amazes me what the human brain is capable of in its ability to rationalize and deal with cognitive dissonance. It's truly something.
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I just read his piece, and it seems you ought to be complimenting him for backing the judge in a ruling that most likely helps Zimmerman. The fact that he tries to find a silver lining doesn't negate that point. Had the ruling gone the other way, I'd be hard pressed to find a similar sentiment coming from Zimmerman's defenders.
 
Re: Judge bars audio experts from George Zimmerman trial who say screams were not Zim

charlie hodge said:
I don't think it proves anything that Zimmerman said he didn't recognize his own voice.

Just like I don't think it proves anything that Tracy Martin said he didn't recognize his son's voice.

But in typical pro-Zimmerman double-standard fashion, that Martin didn't recognize his son's voice is rock-solid, damning evidence, while Zimmerman not recognizing his own is to be swept under the rug and ignored.
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Those are two entirely different things and cannot be equated in any way. It is quite common for a person to be able to recognize the recorded voice of someone they know - if you listen to a voice-mail message a family member has left you, it's easy to verify. It is far less common to be able to recognize your own recorded voice - listen to a voice message you put on your answering service sometime - it sounds very strange to hear your own voice.

That said, I don't know anyone who's had experience listening to either themselves or some family member screaming in terror or fear for their life. The only way to prove it would be to reconstruct it. Since Martin is dead, no way to reconstruct it. Since Zimmerman is alive, perhaps they've tried to record him screaming in fear - would be interesting to hear if it's similar, but then the prosecution would just claim it's an aping of the sound on the 911 tapes.

Bottom line, Zimmerman will not be convicted or acquitted based on a jury member's guess of who's screaming. If the jury does, they wouldn't have done their job.
 
Re: Judge bars audio experts from George Zimmerman trial who say screams were not Zim

CanadaJohn said:
Have you ever listened to your own voice on a recording? Very few people can recognize their own voice. To compound that, how many people have heard a recording of themselves screaming?
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How many people have heard their sons screaming before their death by gunshot?
 
Re: Judge bars audio experts from George Zimmerman trial who say screams were not Zim

CanadaJohn said:
See my post just above yours.
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Fair enough, just pointing out the double standard. If Zimmerman gets extra leeway because he was in shock, or unaccustomed to hearing such a thing, then Tracy Martin, who literally JUST learned that his son was murdered, should be given at least the same consideration and not called a liar for it.
 
Re: Judge bars audio experts from George Zimmerman trial who say screams were not Zim

AlfredENeuman said:
Fair enough, just pointing out the double standard. If Zimmerman gets extra leeway because he was in shock, or unaccustomed to hearing such a thing, then Tracy Martin, who literally JUST learned that his son was murdered, should be given at least the same consideration and not called a liar for it.
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I don't think anyone on this thread has called either party a liar, at least not that I've seen.
 
Re: Judge bars audio experts from George Zimmerman trial who say screams were not Zim

CanadaJohn said:
I don't think anyone on this thread has called either party a liar, at least not that I've seen.
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Good evening, CJ.:2wave:
I'm continually surprised by the number of people who want to pronounce a verdict in advance of the evidence.:roll:
 
Re: Judge bars audio experts from George Zimmerman trial who say screams were not Zim

Let's examine the 13 year old boy and his role here...This is what he stated to the 911 operator the night of the shooting:

"I saw a man laying on the ground that needed help, that was screaming and then I was going to go over there to try and help him, but my dog got off the leash, so I went and got my dog, and then I heard a loud sound and then the screaming stopped."​

Here's what transpired in the days that followed:

1. He tells police and reporters that he saw someone lying on the ground screaming for help.
2. He identifies the man on the ground screaming, as wearing a red shirt to reporters and police.
3. We know that Zimmerman was the one who was wearing a red/orange top and Martin was wearing a dark hoodie
4. Just as every other witness has, the boy identified Zimmerman as the one on the ground.
5. So the boy witnessed a man on the ground screaming for help, who he identified by clothing to be George Zimmerman.

Now fast forward to the article linked in post #30:

1. The mother claims his sons words were twisted to incinuate it was Zimmerman screaming.
2. Both the boy and his mother now claim he couldn't determine who it was screaming for help that night.
3. Both the boy and his mother now believe it was Trayvon Martin who was screaming, not George Zimmerman.
4. Near the end it says the boy "...didn't see much, just someone lying on the ground and screaming".

The story seems to contradict itself. They didn't change or dispute the description the boy gave of the man on the ground as wearing a red shirt, just that he didn't see who it was screaming... Then with no reasons given, they say they believe now it was Martin screaming, yet at the end of the story it says he saw a man on the ground screaming. I'm confused?

The question now is, what changed between then and now that would lead them to tell that reporter that they now believe it was Martin who was screaming for help? I think maybe these quotes from the story might give us some idea:

1. The boy said "They still haven't arrested him yet," and "That's pretty much the main thing that's upsetting me."
2. The mother said, "That investigator said flat out that we don't think it was self-defense,"
3. The mother said, "Several times he (an investigator) said, 'I have kids, and I'm going to tell you something that I don't tell many people... You have to read between the lines. There's some stereotyping going on.'"
4. The mother said, "He stood here in my family room telling me that this guy [Zimmerman] is not right and it wasn't self-defense and that they have to prove that it wasn't. He was adamant about that."
5. The boy said, "If I was like two years older, that could have happened to me"

So lets review... An investigator interviews the family, a black family, and insinuates that Zimmerman has mental problems and he wasn't acting in self defense, that he targeted Martin because he was black, and states adamantly to the family how they have to prove it wasn't self defense... I'm no rocket scientist, but I think it's pretty clear why the boy's story changed, and it has nothing to do with twisted words, manipulation by police, or the truth about what the boy actually saw...

Whether the mother's claims about what that investigator told her are true or not, the reason the boy's story changed comes down to one thing, and one thing only... It's because Trayvon Martin was black, and George Zimmerman was not... PERIOD.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that what the boy said to the 911 operator that night, to the police, and to that TV reporter was the truth... That George Zimmerman was on the ground screaming for help.
 
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Re: Judge bars audio experts from George Zimmerman trial who say screams were not Zim

sharon said:
LOLOL.. no problem.. Let the jury hear the tapes and decide. They have ears.
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I doubt the tapes will matter much.:peace
 
Re: Judge bars audio experts from George Zimmerman trial who say screams were not Zim

Jack Hays said:
Good evening, CJ.:2wave:
I'm continually surprised by the number of people who want to pronounce a verdict in advance of the evidence.:roll:
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Good evening to you too 2M - hope all is well with you.

I agree - but this is what happens when you have high profile individuals like the President opining on it - it drives people to support the side taken by those they support. And, of course, in America anything with even a hint of racial tension is very divisive.
 
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