For those of you who believe Zimmerman is guilty of murder....

Could you please in list form, lay out the evidence that supports your belief of his guilt, complete with direct links to that information. I don't want a general link like sharon has given, but specific links to the exact information you list. This is your chance to make your complete case in one thread, and prove that your beliefs are based on evidence rather than politics, ideological beliefs, or the product of a snap judgement.


Here's an example of what I'm looking for based on a previous post from hawke:

1. Blood flow from Z's wounds contradicts him being on the bottom.
Bring On The Pics, Part Two - YouTube

2. Witness says Z was on top when shot was fired.
Sir Isaac and Witness 18 For The Prosecution - YouTube

Click to expand...

Of course, I expect that most of the links will be to news reports, interviews, statements to police, etc... Not from home made videos like those.

Grim17 said:

Could you please in list form, lay out the evidence that supports your belief of his guilt, complete with direct links to that information. I don't want a general link like sharon has given, but specific links to the exact information you list. This is your chance to make your complete case in one thread, and prove that your beliefs are based on evidence rather than politics, ideological beliefs, or the product of a snap judgement.


Here's an example of what I'm looking for based on a previous post from hawke:




Of course, I expect that most of the links will be to news reports, interviews, statements to police, etc... Not from home made videos like those.

Click to expand...

Need some clarification on this. Those pictures & Witness 18 clip are actual statements/evidence (pics) and/or news reports. There is no "home made video", in that someone "made up" facts to come to a conclusion as I believe you are trying to claim. Those videos contain what you asked for, in that they contain photos (evidence), news report (W18 interview), etc. and then AFTER a conclusion was made. What do you actually mean?

What you are asking, as an example, is for Sean Hannity or another MSM talking head to come to a conclusion for us, then have us bring it to these boards for discussion. It needs to be certified by the MSM before we can talk about it?

So you want us to become sheep...and only post conclusions from MSM talking heads....not think for ourselves...is that about right?

Look hawke, this isn't rocket science here... List the evidence that you believe supports your conclusion that Z is guilty, complete with the links to that evidence... That's it. The examples I gave were just to show the list form I wanted, nothing else. I don't want someone elses opinion, just yours and the evidence that supports it.

The evidence just has to be validated... If Joe Blow interviews a witness with his cell phone, that's fine as long as you can substanciate that the person really was a witness to the incident.

EDIT.. I realize the video's contained actual pictures and an actual interview with a witness... I just prefer you would link to the pictures themselves, and the actual interview without the music and commmentary added.

Maybe this will help... Why don't you go from the call to police by Zimmerman, through the confrontation, calls to 911, witnesses, injuries, police interview of Z, and anything in between and list it out.

I will get to it. Got to finish some things up.

Well, this is taking longer than I had anticipated. Too much to go through. Anyways, here is the first batch I have collected. It is not in any order, nor is it all of the evidence on why I believe the defendant will be found guilty. I shall continue to post more as time permits.

1. Affidavit of Probable Cause-Second Degree Murder
State of Florida vs. George Zimmerman | Affidavit of Probable Cause - Document - NYTimes.com

On Sunday 2/26/12, Trayvon Martin was temporarily living at the Retreat at Twin
Lakes, a gated community in Sanford, Seminole County, Florida. That evening Martin
walked to a nearby 7-11 store where he purchased a can of iced tea and a bag of
skittles. Martin then walked back to and entered the gated community and was on his
i way back to the townhouse where he was living when he was profiled by George
Zimmemwan. Martin was unarmed and was not committing a crime.
Zimmerman who also lived in the gated community, and was driving his vehicle
-- observed Martin and assumed Martin was a criminal. Zimmerman felt Martin did not
belong in the gated community and called the police. Zimmemnan spoke to the -
dispatcher and asked for an officer to respond because Zimmerman perceived that
Martin was acting suspicious. The police dispatcher informed Zimmerman that an
officer was on the way and to wait for the officer.
During the recorded call Zimmerman made reference to people he felt had
committed and gotten away with break-ins in his neighborhood. Later while talking
I about Martin, Zimmerman stated "these assholes, they always get away" and also said
"these ****ing punks".
During this time, Martin was on the phone with a friend and described to her what
was happening. The witness advised that Martin was scared because he was being
followed through the complex by an unknown male and didn't know why. Martin
attempted to run home but was followed by Zimmerman who didn't want the person he
falsely assumed was going to commit a crime to get away before the police arrived.
Zimmerman got out of his vehicle and followed Martin. When the police dispatcher
realized Zimmemnan was pursuing Martin, he instructed Zimmerman not to do that and
that the responding officer would meet him. Zimmerman disregarded the police
dispatcher and continued to follow Martin who was trying to return to his home.
Zimmerman confronted Martin and a struggle ensued. Witnesses heard people
arguing and what sounded like a struggle. During this time period witnesses heard
numerous calls for help and some of these were recorded in 911 calls to police. Trayvon
Martin's mother has reviewed the 911 calls and identified the voice crying for help as
Trayvon Martin's voice.
Zimmerman shot Martin in the chest. When police arrived Zimmerman admitted
shooting Martin. Ofhcers recovered a gun from a holster inside Zimmerman's
waistband. A fired casing that was recovered at the scene was determined to have been
tired from the firearm.
Assistant Medical Examiner Dr. Bao performed an autopsy and detemiined that
Martin died from the gunshot wound.

2. NEN call indicates Zimmerman was out to "catch the bad guy", not "report suspicious activity".
Trayvon Martin Shooting - Zimmerman's COMPLETE 911 Call, With Audio And Transcript - YouTube

Snips:

Zimmerman: We had some break-ins in my neighborhood and there’s a real suspicious guy. It’s Retreat View Circle. The best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle.

This guy looks like he’s up to no good or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around looking about. [00:25]

Yeah, a dark hoodie like a gray hoodie. He wore jeans or sweat pants and white tennis shoes. He’s here now … he’s just staring. [00:42]

911 dispatcher:

He’s just walking around the area, the houses? OK.

Zimmerman:

Now he’s staring at me. [00:48]

911 dispatcher:

OK, you said that’s 1111 Retreat View or 111?

Zimmerman:

That’s the clubhouse.

911 dispatcher:

He’s near the clubhouse now?

Zimmerman:

Yeah, now he’s coming toward me. He’s got his hands in his waist band.

And he’s a black male.[1:03]

911 dispatcher:

How old would you say he is?

Zimmerman:

He’s got something on his shirt. About like his late teens.

Zimmerman:

OK.

These assholes. They always get away.

He’s running. [2:08]

911 dispatcher:

He’s running? Which way is he running?

Zimmerman:

Down toward the other entrance of the neighborhood. [2:14]

911 dispatcher:

OK, which entrance is that he’s headed towards?

Zimmerman:

The back entrance.

[It sounds like Zimmerman says under his breath, ‘F-ing punks’ at 2:22]

911 dispatcher:

Are you following him? [2:24]

Zimmerman:

Yeah. [2:25]

911 dispatcher:

OK.

We don’t need you to do that. [2:26]

911 dispatcher:

OK, do you just want to meet with them at the mailboxes then? [3:42]

Zimmerman:

Yeah, that’s fine. [3:43]

911 dispatcher:

Alright, George, I’ll let them know you’ll meet them at …

Zimmerman:

Could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at? [3:49]

3. DeeDee Witness #8
Witness #8 Files: Trayvon Martin / George Zimmerman Case | AxiomAmnesia.com Presents They Always Get Away: Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman Documents, Photos, Videos, Audio, and Articles

Witness Summary:

The interview was conducted by Florida Assistant State Attorney Bernie de la Rionda. She says that Trayvon told her that a white man in a car was watching him from a car. He said that the man watching was on the phone. Trayvon said that he was going to start walking. Phone hung up and she called him back. He said the man was still watching him. He put his hoodie on because it was still raining. She told him to run to his dad’s house. He said that he would run. She heard Trayvon running and could hear the wind. Trayvon said that he lost the guy. Then, he told her the guy was coming closer to him. She heard Trayvon say “Why you following me for?” An old man said, “What are you doing around here?” She called Trayvon’s name and he didn’t answer. She said someone bumped him, and she heard the phone drop. She could hear a little bit of sound. Trayvon was saying “Get off, get off.” Then, the phone hung up. She called him back two or three times. She states she has guilt about the situation.

4. John Witness #6

Witness Summary:
Witness #6 Files: Trayvon Martin / George Zimmerman Case | AxiomAmnesia.com Presents They Always Get Away: Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman Documents, Photos, Videos, Audio, and Articles

When he first walked outside, the Black guy was on top while they were wrestling. He could tell this because the guy on the bottom was a lighter color. The witness was looking out the window and yelling out the window telling them to stop. After the incident, he saw other people out there with flashlights. The guy who had been previously on top was lying face down in the grass. The one who had been on the bottom had his hands in the air. The guy who did the shooting said, “I shot the other guy in self defense. My gun is on the ground.”

He didn’t have his patio door open. He could only hear the helps with all doors and windows closed. He says he couldn’t tell who was yelling for help. He thought it was the person on the ground at first because his logic says that the person on the bottom would be the one yelling for help. He says he truly couldn’t tell who was yelling help. It was too dark. He didn’t see how it started or how it ended. He only saw when they were in an altercation on the ground.

5. Witness 18
Witness #18 Files: Trayvon Martin / George Zimmerman Case | AxiomAmnesia.com Presents They Always Get Away: Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman Documents, Photos, Videos, Audio, and Articles

Witness 18, The Statement Of A Teacher - YouTube

Witness Summary:

She thought she heard loud voices outside while she was upstairs in her bedroom. She didn’t hear voices for about 10 minutes or so, and then heard them again. She couldn’t see anything at first, then saw two men on the ground and someone calling for help from her window. She remembers hearing the pop noise. She thought she heard more than one pop. She then called 911. She saw a larger man standing a couple of feet from a body. She couldn’t see any faces. She couldn’t hear what the people were yelling about. She said she saw what looked like a “larger Hispanic man” as the person who walked away from the incident.

6. Witness #22
Witness #22 Files: Trayvon Martin / George Zimmerman Case | AxiomAmnesia.com Presents They Always Get Away: Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman Documents, Photos, Videos, Audio, and Articles

Witness Summary:

He knows Zimmerman as an ex-coworker. They worked together 2008/2009. Zimmerman was already employed when the witness began to work there. He says he is Middle Eastern and the work environment was unwelcoming. Zimmerman noticed that other employees didn’t like him, so Zimmerman chose him as a target of bullying to prove himself to other people.

Witness stated that his mentor said that George was good at his job, and had caught on to the work quickly. As such, he told the witness to ask him or George if the witness had any questions. As a practical joke, Zimmerman made the witness perform menial tasks, then embarrassed him in front of other co-workers for complying with his instruction. He says Zimmerman referred to him as a “****ing moron,” and he did comedy skits about him on the job on multiple occasions.

Zimmerman made fun of the witness and his accent, saying lines from “Ahmed the Terrorist“. This went on for days and days. The witness submitted a letter of complaint to the company after making a verbal complaint to the manager about Zimmerman’s behavior.

The witness said that the taunting got so bad that he felt violent thoughts against Zimmerman. George Zimmerman mocked his accent and made reference to terrorism regarding his background. Zimmerman did comedy shows and jokes about Middle Easterners in reference to the witness while on the job. He constantly called the witness a moron and stupid.

The witness feels like Zimmerman was trying to fit in with the clique and targeted him for that reason. Since the witness was the “new guy,” Zimmerman found him an easy target for entertainment. The managers asked if the witness thought Zimmerman was just playing. The management had a talk with Zimmerman and it didn’t do any good.

The witness says that Zimmerman never threatened him with violence, or put his hands on the witness. It was immature behavior, with racial overtones.

The witness says that Zimmerman would have never messed with Trayvon if he was a big guy. He mentioned that their job hired a new guy who had been in the military, and George Never bothered that guy. He says that George Zimmerman was fired because he called the company hotline excessively. He had a history of filing complaints against managers and how things were run in the store. He was making these complaints to Human Resources. After Zimmerman was fired, the managers told him that HR said the guy was nothing but trouble and to get rid of him. He said that Zimmerman would be extremely professional to your face. He says that Zimmerman is a very convincing guy, and the witness said that Zimmerman’s rebuttal to the managers calling him in about the witness’ complaint made him almost doubt himself–as if to say, perhaps he had misunderstood Zimmerman.

The Affidavit of Probable Cause is basically a lawyers statement that's laced with opinion. It is not evidence. I specifically stated that I wanted your opinions and the evidence that those opinions are based on, not anyone else's. If there is any evidence contained within you would like to present, that's fine.

hawke812 said:

2. NEN call indicates Zimmerman was out to "catch the bad guy", not "report suspicious activity".

Click to expand...

I do not see anywhere in that call where Zimmerman's words indicated that he was out to "catch" or "apprehend" Martin.


Now there are 2 main things that stand out to me, that would seem to contradict your belief. First there's the purpose of the call itself. It's clear that the reason Z called police, was so they would come and question Martin. Z sat in his truck and described Martin and was giving direction to the police of his location. Then there's this... If Z was intending to "catch the bad guy" as you claim, why did he allow Martin to approach and walk right past him as he sat in his truck, without ever getting out to confront him, or even rolling down his window to question the kid?

You see hawke, it just doesn't fit. It's clear that Z never wanted to confront Martin and that's why he called the police instead of approaching Martin in the first place. His role right from the start was informing the police of his suspicions and directing them to Martin so they could handle the situation. When Martin fled and Z decided to follow, it just doesn't make much sense that he was doing so to confront and apprehend him, when everything he had done up to that point was to avoid such an outcome.

I'm sorry hawke, but I just don't see anything from that call that supports your belief. You have every right to believe as you do, but there certainly isn't anything in that call that backs it up.


Also, I need to correct the transcripts. Although it wasn't initially heard, after the dispatcher said "We don’t need you to do that", Zimmerman replied by saying "OK".

3. DeeDee Witness #8

Click to expand...

I take it, that this is evidence supporting your belief that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation and/or was the aggressor.

There are a lot of problems I have with her testimony. She has no way of knowing if Trayvon approached Z, or Z approached Trayvon. She has no way of knowing who attacked who. She has no way of knowing where Travon was just prior to the confrontation. She has no way of knowing if Z even saw Trayvon prior to Trayvon asking Z why he was following him. All she knows is what she perceives is happening and what Trayvon is telling her... which according to her testimony, isn't very much. Also, her being as close to him as she was, could subconsciously taint her recollections and perceptions of what took place.

Some of what she said doesn't seem to fit, or isn't quite right... Here are some examples of what I'm talking about:

She said initially that when she told Trayvon to keep running and he refused, Trayvon said it was because he was "right by his father’s house". Well, the confrontation took place just a few yards from where Zimmerman had lost sight of Martin when he was talking to police. Aprox 40 yards from the street where Martin had started running... but his fathers place was at the south end of those homes over 100 yards away from the place the shooting took place. So if Martin stopped running initially because he was right by his fathers house as he stated, he obviously decided to go back to the north end of the homes where Zimmerman was. That is not the actions of someone scared because he is being followed.

She also made assumptions, because after she told the investigator the reason Trayvon gave for refusing to run (being right by father's house), every single time after that she stated that the reason he refused to run was because she believed he was tired. In fact, that overshadowed Trayvon's stated reason and him being too tired became the prevailing belief. She said "He said he was not going to run. I knew he was not going to run because he was out of breath. And then he was getting excited, the guy’s getting close to him. I told him, ‘Run!’ And I told him, ‘Keep running!’ He not going to run. I tell him, ‘Why are you not running?’ He said ’I’m not gonna.’ He was tired. I know he was tired." That's pure assumption on her part, that she sells as fact... Makes you wonder what other information she has embellished upon.

When you think about it, that whole thing doesn't make too much sense either. According to her, Trayvon was scared and Zimmerman was coming closer and closer to him so she yelled for him to run and he said "’I’m not gonna".... If he was scared and Zimmerman was getting close to him, why didn't he run? She says she believes it was because he was tired, but he was a physically fit 17 year old boy, not a 58 year old pencil pusher who smokes 2 packs a day... If he was scared, he would have run period.

The bottom line with her testimony is, it doesn't really answer any of the pertinent questions with any measure of reliability, that would indicate that Zimmerman did anything to support him being guilty of murder, rather than it being a case of him acting in self defense.

4. John Witness #6

Click to expand...

I don't understand this one hawke... How does his statement support your belief that Z is guilty of murder?

The only thing he says with certainty is that Trayvon was on top, just as Z stated to police. Nothing he says contradicts Z's statements.

5. Witness 18

Click to expand...

I don't understand this one either...The summary offers nothing at all that supports your belief. I listened to her police testimony and there isn't anything.

Now, I don't know if the CNN interview is the same lady or not, but I take it you are referring to her saying she thought the larger man was on top when the gun fired.

Well, I have some bad news for you there hawke... That wasn't the first interview she did on CNN. Her first interview was with Anderson Cooper and if you skip to the 3:30 mark in the video interview and then to the 6:18 mark, she makes it quite clear that she could not see who was on top and her belief that it was the larger man is purely an assumption based on the results of the shooting.

New Trayvon Martin Witness speaks to CNNs Anderson Cooper - YouTube

6. Witness #22

Click to expand...

Basically, this is someone who claims Z is an asshole... That's fine and all, but how does this in any way support your belief that he didn't act in self defense that night?



Well so far hawke, it's exactly as I expected. Of the 6 things you listed, 5 fell completely flat. Of those, 4 offered nothing that would indicate that Zimmerman's version of events weren't forthcoming or that he was guilty of murder, and 1 was invalid (#1). The only one that on the surface seemed to have a few circumstantial points that you might be able to hang your hat on (#3), didn't offer anything concrete, was laced with incomplete information and assumptions, and came from someone who is anything but impartial.

Since these threads came up I have reviewed all evidence I could find and most of the links you guys have posted. I am not at this point convienced he is guilty, but I sure dont think he is innocent. There seems to be a right wing evidence generator somewhere, with no rebuttal from anywhere else. If I was betting I would cover 2:1 he is guilty. And no, I aint betting.

I have never understood why the right wing is soooo sure he is innocent. Almost irrational.

mak2 said:

Since these threads came up I have reviewed all evidence I could find and most of the links you guys have posted. I am not at this point convienced he is guilty, but I sure dont think he is innocent. There seems to be a right wing evidence generator somewhere, with no rebuttal from anywhere else. If I was betting I would cover 2:1 he is guilty. And no, I aint betting.

I have never understood why the right wing is soooo sure he is innocent. Almost irrational.

Click to expand...

I am of course "right wing", but I have never said that I believe George Zimmerman is innocent. Never. The reason I've never said that, is because I just don't know. Every post I make or opinion I express on this topic is from a legal standpoint, not a moral one. I look at the claims made by Zimmerman of what took place, then compare that to the available evidence. Most of my time here is spent shooting down the people who proclaim his guilt without any substantial evidence to back it up with.

As for there being some sort of evidence machine that the right wing is behind, I have no idea where you come up with that. Evidence is evidence and has no political agenda. As for me, every single opinion I have on this issue is based on the countless hours I have spent over the last 7 months reviewing the available evidence, going over witness statements to both the police and the press, and on the extensive research I've done on Florida law, including some case history. In fact, other than an interview I saw of Alan Dershowitz, I can't remember ever hearing or seeing any show or personality from the right wing media even discuss this case.

From a legal standpoint, I simply haven't seen any concrete evidence (or mediocre evidence for that matter), that comes anywhere close to indicating George Zimmerman is guilty of murder. All I've seen thus far is a lot of far reaching speculation that's based on either weak circumstantial evidence, or selective evidence gathering, combined with the pre determined conclusions derived from a persons political or ideological beliefs.

Grim17 said:

From a legal standpoint.

Click to expand...

Watch out, certified Internet Lawyer:roll:

Moving on, GZ is NOT the guy we all saw on Sean Hannity. He is a homie, a thug. Talks like a thug, looks like a thug, and acts like a thug.

7. Thugboat (Gangsta 4Lyfe Yo!) This dude ghetto as ****:lol:
Joe G. on Myspace
About me:
Moved out of Manassas VA (d.c. suburb) about 4 years ago, alot of people say they hate it but i cant ever say i hate home. Miss my boys from back home, no one is gonna have your back like your boys who grew up with you and are as scared of your momma as you are! You know who you are, the same ones that would come ova and have my pops tie your tie before every school dance and interview. I know alot of yall hatin cause im out and aint ever goin back, i used to look at people like me the same way. Can you really hate on someone for improving thier life? I love the fact that I can still go back home and crash on my boys couch as if i had never left, I can hit my boy up to handle a lil somethin with my sister and he's at my house with his boys on bikes before i hang up with her! They do a year and dont ever open thier mouth to get my ass pinched. My cousins the cruzado's damn i love yall, shirley and frank DONT PLAY! I gotta be honest I miss that. I dont miss driving around scared to hit mexicans walkin on the side of the street, soft ass wanna be thugs messin with peoples cars when they aint around (what are you provin, that you can dent a car when no ones watchin) dont make you a man in my book. Workin 96 hours to get a decent pay check, gettin knifes pulled on you by every mexican you run into! Im down here now opened my own insurance agency, small but its mine. I put my grandma's name on it so that she could see its hers too, who knows here i would be with out her. MY VA SHOUTOUTS!!!!! Of course my two brothers Mauricio (in japan w/ marines and Barret (if i cant see you, you cant see me!), jade(thank god donovan takes after you), ashley (keep that bot inline), anthony(love you nephew), luis (thought you would be more chill after the marines), krista (you know your wrong for not commin to see me yet!), nikky( so damn sexy!), tony(this kid is a p.i.m.p), nick(phatest rides for sure), walter (we need to go fisin again),shirley("im wrkin y did you call and wake me up"), frank the tank (thanks aint enough cuz), karen (I miss ya),kristy(i really miss you!),Lauren (i can never pay you back for being such a good freind to my family),lisa(damn i hate growin up, but at least we did it together), michelle( you know i still love ya), sharon(Too much fun in jax), MY FL SHOUTOUTS Mike who(my brother from another mother), Lauren(ms. L Boogey), christine(miss ya lil sis), Wesley(y ya have to go and do that!!!), cortez(i dont want you in my house anymore), L-wood(Dont get married again lil bro),T( jamacian beef patty have two ingredients, beef and patty!!), Al(I got your chris farley), jhonny(dont break my knee caps), ricky(only comes ova to use hair gel), HAHAHAHA!!!!!!!! Bet ya thought i forgot about you..... Just savin the best for last, I love you Gracie, but you already knew that, I know you gave up alot to be near me, but you gotta admit you gained alot too, Only person thats always, ALWAYS been there for me, I love ya, oh yea, my lil sista hits like a grown MOTHER ****IN MAN!!!!
Who I'd like to meet:
Friends, let me be specific.... Tru friends

8. Witness #9 Christina (GZ has a tattoo of her name on his chest!)
Witness #9 Files: Trayvon Martin / George Zimmerman Case | AxiomAmnesia.com Presents They Always Get Away: Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman Documents, Photos, Videos, Audio, and Articles
Witness Summary:

This anonymous caller to the Sanford Police Department says that she knows George Zimmerman, and he would start something that could lead to a confrontation. She claims that he is a very confrontational person. She doesn’t talk to him because of things he has done in the past, and she knows all of his family. She urges the police to check into his background and try to get people to come forward and admit the type of person George Zimmerman is.

"Witness 9" claims George Zimmerman sexually molested her - Crimesider - CBS News
Witness 9 told investigators that Zimmerman, who is about two years older than her, had sexually molested her from the age of six up until she was 16 years old, CBS Miami reports.

http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam...ents/george-zimmerman-booking-report-0412.pdf

Witness #9 – Christina Meza, aka Christina Johnson, Daughter of “Mike” Luis Miguel Meza, who is the brother to Gladys (Georges Mom) Update With Pictures | The Last Refuge

9. Theatrical Masks-Latin Gang Affiliated tattoo's
http://www.cfnews13.com/content/dam...ents/george-zimmerman-booking-report-0412.pdf
THE REAL MIAMI UNCUT! PRESENTS GANG PROFILES: LATIN SYNDICATES - YouTube
http://www.sdcoe.net/vpi/gangs/latino.pdf

Next up, the inconsistencies.

Inconsistencies

Full Hannity Interview Full 40 Minute George Zimmerman - Hannity Q & A. Zimmerman First Time Talking To The News! - YouTube

10. Running/Not running

Hannity seemed taken aback when Zimmerman repeatedly insisted that Trayvon Martin wasn’t running, since Zimmerman told the police dispatcher that he was. The Fox News host asked Zimmerman to try to “get into the mind-set” of the teen, and questioned whether he might have been running from Zimmerman because he was afraid of him and didn’t know who Zimmerman was. Zimmerman’s one word response to that proposition: “no.”

“You don’t think — why do you think that he was running then?” Hannity asked, to which Zimmerman replied that maybe he “said running,” but that Martin was “more … like skipping, going away quickly. But he wasn’t running out of fear.”

“You could tell the difference?” Hannity asked, to which Zimmerman replied more emphatically: “He wasn’t running.” Hannity asked again: “So he wasn’t actually running?” And Zimmerman reiterated, “No, sir.”


11. Following/Not following

HANNITY: Let me ask you this. At that point, we can hear the unbuckling of the seatbelt, hear you opening the car door, and this dispatch asked you at that point, and this became a very key moment that everyone in the media focused on, and the dispatcher asked you, “are you following him?” And you said yes. Explain that.

ZIMMERMAN: I meant that I was going in the same direction as him, to keep an eye on him so that I could tell the police where he was going. I didn’t mean that I was actually pursuing him.

HANNITY: So this moment where someone suggested you were out of breath on that tape, you yourself were not running?

ZIMMERMAN: No, sir.

HANNITY: And you I think made a statement to the police that it was the wind as you were getting out of the car and moving, and that was the sound we hear, not you out of breath?

ZIMMERMAN: Yes, sir.

12. GZ lied about staying near his vehicle

HANNITY: So you never went further than how far approximately from your car?

ZIMMERMAN: I would estimate it to be approximately 100 feet.

13. God's plan.

Zimmerman: It was all god's plan.

Grim17 said:

I am of course "right wing", but I have never said that I believe George Zimmerman is innocent. Never. The reason I've never said that, is because I just don't know. Every post I make or opinion I express on this topic is from a legal standpoint, not a moral one. I look at the claims made by Zimmerman of what took place, then compare that to the available evidence. Most of my time here is spent shooting down the people who proclaim his guilt without any substantial evidence to back it up with.

As for there being some sort of evidence machine that the right wing is behind, I have no idea where you come up with that. Evidence is evidence and has no political agenda. As for me, every single opinion I have on this issue is based on the countless hours I have spent over the last 7 months reviewing the available evidence, going over witness statements to both the police and the press, and on the extensive research I've done on Florida law, including some case history. In fact, other than an interview I saw of Alan Dershowitz, I can't remember ever hearing or seeing any show or personality from the right wing media even discuss this case.

From a legal standpoint, I simply haven't seen any concrete evidence (or mediocre evidence for that matter), that comes anywhere close to indicating George Zimmerman is guilty of murder. All I've seen thus far is a lot of far reaching speculation that's based on either weak circumstantial evidence, or selective evidence gathering, combined with the pre determined conclusions derived from a persons political or ideological beliefs.

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Just go to GZlegalcase.com.. All the evidence is there and easily accessed.

I think it's funny how republicans have taken the side he is fully innocent before seeing all the evidence and watching the trial like an impartial jury member. I am sure the righty talking heads have lead you to your conclusions. How else could all the Fox News viewers reach the same conclusion independatly?

I recall some conservative writing Zimmerman letters with prayers, and others sending him money.

Beyond the religious values, zimmerman even directly appeals to in interviews, there is the race aspect. The party that admits it has a problem reaching minorities is reacting the way it always does. Supporting racial profiling.

Conservative groups wrote the stand your ground laws, so I expect the party to take care of their own, from the media down to creating support for the laws and old party ways in their viewers.

Grim, there are THREE witnesses who have provided sworn statements to Law Enforcement/FBI stating GZ is confrontational. You have what, a twitter message, a grainy video in which a black kid is fighting? Please:roll:

1. Witness #9 (as I posted) Own cousin states GZ is confrontational
2. Witness #22 (as I posted) Ex co-worker states GZ is confrontational
3.GZ pushed a LEO (see page 11). Plus he lied, told Serino he did not push him. Co-Worker Describes Zimmerman's Account of Shooting - WSJ.com

Grim, Witness #6 and everyone else saw a struggle, or wrestling, NOT MMA style fighting as GZ describes.

Murder with a Depraved Mind occurs when a person is killed, without any premeditated design, by an act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind showing no regard for human life.

The primary distinction between Premeditated First Degree Murder and Second Degree Murder with a Depraved Mind is that First Degree Murder requires a specific and premeditated intent to kill.

1. GZ was confrontational (supported by 3 witnesses)
2. He wanted to catch the bad guy ("these assholes always get away, Getting out of his vehicle to chase Martin). This is the depraved mind component.
3. Minor injuries, could have injured himself wrestling with Martin, no evidence of the savage beating he described

For the record, I do not believe GZ intended to kill TM. But his rogue actions directly led to Martin's death.This is why he will be found guilty.

Martin has none of Zimmerman's DNA on him or his clothing even after pummeling Zimmerman, trying to smother him and bashing his head against the concrete.

Zimmerman had no defensive wounds.

Martin's knuckles only shows a minor abrasion on his non-dominate hand after pummeling a man in the face who didn't defend the dozen or so blows.

Martin has no history of violence, no matter how much the right tries to believe it's so.

Martin was doing absolutely nothing wrong. He was chatting on the phone with a girl. It was Zimmerman who had an ax to grind, to which he confirmed while on the call with the police representative.

Where the incident finished was not where Zimmerman claimed it began. No where close to it. Based on Zimmerman's own statement, there is no way he could have ended up where Martin was killed while on his back with Martin sitting on top of him, faced in the wrong direction for shimmying (his head would have to be faced the opposite direction of the T).

mak2 said:

Since these threads came up I have reviewed all evidence I could find and most of the links you guys have posted. I am not at this point convienced he is guilty, but I sure dont think he is innocent. There seems to be a right wing evidence generator somewhere, with no rebuttal from anywhere else. If I was betting I would cover 2:1 he is guilty. And no, I aint betting.

I have never understood why the right wing is soooo sure he is innocent. Almost irrational.

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So-called right wing has jack **** to do with *innocence*

The concept of right and wrong is completely irrelevant when looked at through they eyes of a lawyer.

Like it or not, that's how the world really works.

Tettsuo said:

Martin has none of Zimmerman's DNA on him or his clothing even after pummeling Zimmerman, trying to smother him and bashing his head against the concrete.

Zimmerman had no defensive wounds.

Martin's knuckles only shows a minor abrasion on his non-dominate hand after pummeling a man in the face who didn't defend the dozen or so blows.

Martin has no history of violence, no matter how much the right tries to believe it's so.

Martin was doing absolutely nothing wrong. He was chatting on the phone with a girl. It was Zimmerman who had an ax to grind, to which he confirmed while on the call with the police representative.

Where the incident finished was not where Zimmerman claimed it began. No where close to it. Based on Zimmerman's own statement, there is no way he could have ended up where Martin was killed while on his back with Martin sitting on top of him, faced in the wrong direction for shimmying (his head would have to be faced the opposite direction of the T).

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Spot on.

So far, GZ has THREE witnesses that indicate he is confrontational/violent (Cousin, Ex co-worker, LEO).

There are no witnesses indicating TM was violent.

ric27 said:

So-called right wing has jack **** to do with *innocence*

The concept of right and wrong is completely irrelevant when looked at through they eyes of a lawyer.

Like it or not, that's how the world really works.

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Getting prepared early for the guilty verdict I see:lol:

hawke812 said:

7. Thugboat (Gangsta 4Lyfe Yo!) This dude ghetto as ****:lol:

8. Witness #9 Christina (GZ has a tattoo of her name on his chest!)
Witness 9 told investigators that Zimmerman, who is about two years older than her, had sexually molested her from the age of six up until she was 16 years old, CBS Miami reports

9. Theatrical Masks-Latin Gang Affiliated tattoo's

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This is what you call evidence?

Really hawke?

An 8 year old Myspace page, tattoo's, a theatrical mask, and unsubstantiated allegations against him and his family, none of which directly relate to the events that took place the night of the shooting. All of it is irrelevant to this case. They're nothing more than character assassinations that when totaled up, couldn't even be called "weak" circumstantial evidence.

Circumstantial evidence has been used in the past successfully to convict people of murder. The Scott Peterson case is a good example. But even that case had one piece of hard evidence (a hair of his wife's found on his pliers) to accompany the circumstantial stuff, which is precisely what neither you or anyone else on this board have produced. You haven't come up with any solid and/or credible evidence or witness statements, that support your belief that Zimmerman is guilty of murder.

I really didn't expect this kind of weak crap from you hawke.

Grim17 said:

Circumstantial evidence has been used in the past successfully to convict people of murder.

I really didn't expect this kind of weak crap from you hawke.

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Continue to downplay the evidence all you want, but this case will rely heavily on circumstantial evidence, as there are NO other witnesses to the initial confrontation and key parts of the fight. Zimmerman's credibility is KEY. His story does not add up, and his past actions will hurt his case.

And for the record, how is this weak? Care to compare this evidence to a similar murder 2/manslaughter case and back up your claims of "weak", or do you truly have nothing and are just grasping at straws?

Grim, check this out. Trevor Dooley sentenced to 8 years for manslaughter - Tampa Bay Times

Summarizing the tragedy that spun out of an argument over a skateboarder on a Valrico community basketball court, Hillsborough Circuit Judge Ashley Moody concluded, "All this could have been avoided if somebody had stopped and said, 'Let me introduce myself.' "

Remember Serino concluding that in his report? You really think this case will be different?

Moody acknowledged her struggle to impose a fair sentence in a case whose complexities inspired national debate. Dooley claimed immunity under Florida's "stand your ground" law, saying he feared being overpowered by the larger, younger man as they wrestled on the ground for Dooley's gun. When the judge rejected that, the defense turned to a self-defense argument.

Oh hey look I have seen this before.

Dooley hung his head as forensic psychologist Richard Carpenter attributed his rigidity and inability to express remorse to an abusive childhood that included being tied to a tree and whipped by a stepfather in Jamaica.

Carpenter said the experience compelled him "to never let anyone take that kind of control over him again." He became "an overly diligent, hard-working conservative type" — the sort of man who would get upset by a teenager skateboarding on basketball court.

Who else do you know who shows no remorse for killing someone? Who else was abused per Mark Osterman? Oh right, George Zimmerman.

Both Trevor Dooley and George Zimmerman exited their House/Vehicle with a loaded gun. George Zimmerman will follow in Trevor Dooley's footsteps, right into a guilty verdict.

hawke812 said:

Inconsistencies

10. Running/Not running

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This reminds me of the language manipulation, willful ignorance and abandonment of common sense your side engaged in during the "follow vs. pursue" debate that took place here 6 or 7 months ago.

Time for some logic and simple common sense here... The word "running" is a general, unspecific term that's used to describe when a person travels fast enough on foot that they break out of a walking stride. Unless a person is describing or attaching intent or motive for the persons actions, the term is often used to describe someone who is sprinting, shuffling, jogging, racing, or skipping... Basically it's the preferred, generic term used to label the actions of someone who has purposely increased their foot speed, especially when it's for the purpose of fleeing an area more rapidly.

When Zimmerman was on the phone with police, as well as when he was interviewed by them, the issue of Martin's motive or intent for fleeing was not at issue, so using the generic term "running" to describe his actions more than sufficed. By the time Zimmerman was interviewed by Hannity, that was no longer the case. At that point, Martin's state of mind and motives for fleeing had become an issue, making the general term "running" too broad a term to describe the manner in which Martin fled. What Zimmerman did was use the more defined term "skip" to describe how Martin fled, because it better attested to the level of urgency behind his fleeing.

Zimmerman's using a different, more specific term to describe the manner in which Martin fled, wasn't an inconsistency at all, but rather a necessary clarification designed to better establish Martin's motives, his state of mind at the time, and so that people don't make false assumptions or come to an incorrect conclusion about the level of urgency that he showed.

11. Following/Not following

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Wow... speak of the devil. No sooner do I mention the "followed/pursued" debate than it rears it's ugly head.

This is once again a case of language manipulation, willful ignorance and the abandonment of common sense on your part hawke. There is no inconsistency or contradiction here, but rather a clarification so people understand his motives and intent, rather than making assumptions and jumping to false conclusions just as you and so many others have.

It doesn't get any more clear than this:



You see hawke, he just didn't want people to misinterpret his actions or intent, and felt that too many people might mistakenly equate "following" Martin, to "pursuing" Martin. The difference of course being that pursuing is following someone with the intent to catch, while simply following them is not.

13. God's plan.

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How exactly does that statement support your beliefs?

You do realize that when a person says it must have been "Gods Plan", that's just another way of saying it must have been "fate"?



It's becoming very clear that when I stated that you had first come to a conclusion, and have been trying to find anything you can to prop up that conclusion ever since, I was absolutely correct... Why else would someone abandon common sense, knowingly twist the English language and resort to the level of blatant dishonesty you just displayed in #10 and #11?

Grim17 said:

This reminds me of the language manipulation, willful ignorance and abandonment of common sense your side engaged in during the "follow vs. pursue" debate that took place here 6 or 7 months ago.

Time for some logic and simple common sense here... The word "running" is a general, unspecific term that's used to describe when a person travels fast enough on foot that they break out of a walking stride. Unless a person is describing or attaching intent or motive for the persons actions, the term is often used to describe someone who is sprinting, shuffling, jogging, racing, or skipping... Basically it's the preferred, generic term used to label the actions of someone who has purposely increased their foot speed, especially when it's for the purpose of fleeing an area more rapidly.

When Zimmerman was on the phone with police, as well as when he was interviewed by them, the issue of Martin's motive or intent for fleeing was not at issue, so using the generic term "running" to describe his actions more than sufficed. By the time Zimmerman was interviewed by Hannity, that was no longer the case. At that point, Martin's state of mind and motives for fleeing had become an issue, making the general term "running" too broad a term to describe the manner in which Martin fled. What Zimmerman did was use the more defined term "skip" to describe how Martin fled, because it better attested to the level of urgency behind his fleeing.

Zimmerman's using a different, more specific term to describe the manner in which Martin fled, wasn't an inconsistency at all, but rather a necessary clarification designed to better establish Martin's motives, his state of mind at the time, and so that people don't make false assumptions or come to an incorrect conclusion about the level of urgency that he showed.






Wow... speak of the devil. No sooner do I mention the "followed/pursued" debate than it rears it's ugly head.

This is once again a case of language manipulation, willful ignorance and the abandonment of common sense on your part hawke. There is no inconsistency or contradiction here, but rather a clarification so people understand his motives and intent, rather than making assumptions and jumping to false conclusions just as you and so many others have.

It doesn't get any more clear than this:

ZIMMERMAN: I meant that I was going in the same direction as him, to keep an eye on him so that I could tell the police where he was going. I didn’t mean that I was actually pursuing him.​

You see hawke, he just didn't want people to misinterpret his actions or intent, and felt that too many people might mistakenly equate "following" Martin, to "pursuing" Martin. The difference of course being that pursuing is following someone with the intent to catch, while simply following them is not.



How exactly does that statement support your beliefs?

You do realize that when a person says it must have been "Gods Plan", that's just another way of saying it must have been "fate"?



It's becoming very clear that when I stated that you had first come to a conclusion, and have been trying to find anything you can to prop up that conclusion ever since, I was absolutely correct... Why else would someone abandon common sense, knowingly twist the English language and resort to the level of blatant dishonesty you just displayed in #10 and #11?

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No propping, just supporting.

Can you provide another similar case, like the Trevor Dooley case I linked, that shows the defendant was cleared of all charges under similar circumstances?

Why can't you just wait and see? Do you have to have a definitive conclusion before any hearing or trial? Or are your emotions preventing you from seeing George Zimmerman may very well have his case tried in front of a jury?