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Question for M's supporters....

What if...? said:
But we only have Zs word that he didnt go for the gun (or appear to) at the crucial moment. Just as they came together.

I wish there was more support for the rule of law and less for a knucklehead whose actions resulted in a 17 year olds death.

I'm comfortable with Z getting off due to reasonable doubt.

What i dont get is the hero worship.
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I have strong feelings about any sort of vigilantism.. whether that's George running amok of the New Black Panthers. I think it has to be crushed.
 
tessaesque said:
A logical concerned citizen calls 9-1-1, reports what he's seen, and goes about his business. In fact, in most NW organizations, that is SOP. Z admittedly tracked M, made himself visible while tracking M (to the point that M was supposedly scared/concerned for his safety according to one witness), and left his vehicle to look for an address (and probably regain site of M). He went directly against the advice of the 9-1-1 operator by tracking M and by exiting his truck.

The fact that he carried a gun while on watch duty (or was he not..because I've heard varying accounts) suggests he was prepared for and expected the possibility of a confrontation.

The behavior that Z describes in and of itself sounds wreckless, stupid, and inappropriate. He created that situation through his behavior. Had he gone by SOP and filed a report (which is all that's expected of NW reps, generally speaking) there wouldn't have been a scared, paranoid kid and an eventual shooting death.

So you can talk about subjectivity all day, but it seems pretty obvious that Z acted less than intelligently the minute he disobeyed the 9-1-1 operated and began following M.
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You are so right....... Gun ownership and concealed carry are for the purpose of protecting yourself and your family... NOT to correct the wrongs and injustices of the world.
 
sharon said:
I have strong feelings about any sort of vigilantism.. whether that's George running amok of the New Black Panthers. I think it has to be crushed.
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Your messages are generally pure vigilantism to the extreme.
 
sharon said:
You are so right....... Gun ownership and concealed carry are for the purpose of protecting yourself and your family... NOT to correct the wrongs and injustices of the world.
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Well, again you admit that you are 100% totally apathetic towards other people - and you even claim that anything but apathy is criminal behavior.
 
tessaesque said:
A logical concerned citizen calls 9-1-1, reports what he's seen, and goes about his business. In fact, in most NW organizations, that is SOP. Z admittedly tracked M, made himself visible while tracking M (to the point that M was supposedly scared/concerned for his safety according to one witness), and left his vehicle to look for an address (and probably regain site of M). He went directly against the advice of the 9-1-1 operator by tracking M and by exiting his truck. The fact that he carried a gun while on watch duty (or was he not..because I've heard varying accounts) suggests he was prepared for and expected the possibility of a confrontation.
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Really....and perhaps thats why you can go to youtube and watch lots of videos from stores of someone being kidnapped and other people walking on by while it happens doing NOTHING about it. This mind set of "minding your own buisness" when it comes to even possible criminals acts is why there is so much crime.

tessaesque said:
The behavior that Z describes in and of itself sounds wreckless, stupid, and inappropriate. He created that situation through his behavior. Had he gone by SOP and filed a report (which is all that's expected of NW reps, generally speaking) there wouldn't have been a scared, paranoid kid and an eventual shooting death.
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And if M had stayed hidden then there wouldn't have been a death also.
 
What if...? said:
But we only have Zs word that he didnt go for the gun (or appear to) at the crucial moment. Just as they came together.

I wish there was more support for the rule of law and less for a k ucklehead whose actio s resulted in a 17 year olds death.

I'm comfortable with Z getting off due to reasonable doubt.

What i dont get is the hero worship.
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What hero worship?
 
What if...? said:
Sure did take Z a LONG time to walk a distance covered in 26 seco ds in the reenactment.

So its entirely possible that Z WASN'T walki g straight back to his truck.

So its also entirely possible Z came up on M in the dark and THEN the interaction occurred.
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So? Since when is there a rule that says that you have to walk fast?
 
Kal'Stang said:
And if M had stayed hidden then there wouldn't have been a death also.
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and if M hadn't been a druggie and gotten kicked out of school, GZ never would have seen him that night
 
Kal'Stang said:
Really....and perhaps thats why you can go to youtube and watch lots of videos from stores of someone being kidnapped and other people walking on by while it happens doing NOTHING about it. This mind set of "minding your own buisness" when it comes to even possible criminals acts is why there is so much crime.



And if M had stayed hidden then there wouldn't have been a death also.
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Oh dude, selective reading is such a stupid habit.

I clearly stated that he should have called 9-1-1 to report the crime and then moved on with his life. He should NOT have pursued Martin through the complex (which he admits to doing) and he should NOT have exited his vehicle (which he admits to doing). He was specifically advised NOT to do those things.

And yeah, sure. If Martin hadn't turned back around he might still be alive. But Zimmerman instigated the entire confrontation by tailing the kid and exiting his vehicle against the advice of the 9-1-1 dispatcher.

It's absolutely irresponsible to act as though Zimmerman did nothing wrong. He did. He did a lot of things the wrong way. Dismissing his actions or throwing Martin under the bus to justify Zimmerman's actions up to the point of self defense is reckless.
 
Krhazy said:
You are simply adopting in whole Z's version of events. The girlfriend has a story as well that conflicts significantly with the above. Witnesses have corroborated Z's version of who was on top and that Z was being attacked, and that is important, but I do not think it is the key issue of the case.
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Why should the GF's version be worth taking at face value though? I have doubts about it for the simple fact that by the time the police got around to talking to her she already knew that M was dead and had plenty of time to think about it. I know darn well that if someone had shot someone that I loved and I had had time to think about it I would have thought up something that, hopefully, would put the perp in prison...even if it was the person that I loved fault.

Krhazy said:
One of the things I find most important about the full 911 call is that, at the very end, Z changes his mind and, instead of agreeing to meet the officer by the mailboxes, tells the dispatcher to have the officer call him so Z can tell him where he is. That to me is extremely good proof that Z was not finished pursuing Martin. Yes, perhaps he lost site of Martin (although some commentators have made the point that there was little place for Martin to hide in the area where the incident occurred), but I do not think that is determinative. The key is what happened toward the end of the phone call and immediately before the scuffle began. And I don't think we will ever know the answer.
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I could think of a few reasons why he said that, all of them legitimate (and yes some that are nefarious also). But without evidence or anything else all that we can do is conjecture. Which is not admissible in any court.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Why should the GF's version be worth taking at face value though? I have doubts about it for the simple fact that by the time the police got around to talking to her she already knew that M was dead and had plenty of time to think about it. I know darn well that if someone had shot someone that I loved and I had had time to think about it I would have thought up something that, hopefully, would put the perp in prison...even if it was the person that I loved fault.



I could think of a few reasons why he said that, all of them legitimate (and yes some that are nefarious also). But without evidence or anything else all that we can do is conjecture. Which is not admissible in any court.
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So the GF isn't credible because she was seeking punishment for the man who killed her boyfriend, but Zimmerman is credible because....???
 
sharon said:
Why was George running after Trayvon? Unless GZ can clear 10 feet per second at a walk, he's lying.

How do you know Trayvn went back if you don't know where he went in the first place?
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And how do you know? Do you have any bit of evidence that backs up your conjecture's? The only thing that we have is Z's word. Without anything else to disprove it we're SOL.
 
tessaesque said:
So the GF isn't credible because she was seeking punishment for the man who killed her boyfriend, but Zimmerman is credible because....???
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Because he was there and the eyewitnesses have so far backed up everything else that he has said.

I remember in the recording of the interview with her she specifically said that "He was pushed". How would she know whether he was pushed or not? She said it was because the line went dead. But there are more reasons for a line to go dead than being pushed.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Because he was there and the eyewitnesses have so far backed up everything else that he has said.

I remember in the recording of the interview with her she specifically said that "He was pushed". How would she know whether he was pushed or not? She said it was because the line went dead. But there are more reasons for a line to go dead than being pushed.
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Patently false.
 
Kal'Stang said:
Like?

67890
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Witness have not backed up everything else he's said. In fact, there are very large segments of his account that cannot be corroborated in any way by any available data, witness testimony, or physical evidence.
 
tessaesque said:
Witness have not backed up everything else he's said. In fact, there are very large segments of his account that cannot be corroborated in any way by any available data, witness testimony, or physical evidence.
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Ah I see, just a miscommunication between us. To clairify, witnesses have backed up Z's story in "almost" everything else. And the parts that they corroberated were done after Z made his statements which was done relatively immediately after the shooting. Which has more standing than someones statement that had several days worth of time to think of what to say.
 
tessaesque said:
So the GF isn't credible because she was seeking punishment for the man who killed her boyfriend, but Zimmerman is credible because....???
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Both their accounts have circumstances surrounding them.
The circumstances surrounding Zimmerman's account makes his account more believable than Daisha because of the circumstance surrounding her account.


On one hand we have Daisha who really didn't think anything was wrong enough to notify Law Enforcement, even after she knew he was dead.
Who then lawyered up with the family's attorney "Crump", and would not cooperate.
Her account was not released until after other witnesses and Zimmerman's accounts were known.


On the other hand we have Zimmerman who fully cooperated from the get. In writing and in reenactment.
Submitted himself to, and passed, three separate so-called lie detectors.

He had no idea who saw what, or how many there were. And yet his account is consistent with the other witnesses accounts.
You do not get that if he was lying.
 
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tessaesque said:
A logical concerned citizen calls 9-1-1, reports what he's seen, and goes about his business.
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You left out; "and keeps them under observation until police arrive."


tessaesque said:
In fact, in most NW organizations, that is SOP.
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Really?
:slapme:
Is that so?
If it is, then you should be able to provided the rules/guidelines/SOP and show us. Please do so! :lamo

And if you can do that impossible feat, please then show how those rules/guidelines/SOP affect a guy on the way to the store. iLOL and await your answer.


tessaesque said:
Z admittedly tracked M, made himself visible while tracking M (to the point that M was supposedly scared/concerned for his safety according to one witness),
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Trayvon's actions say otherwise, making that (cough) witness a liar.


tessaesque said:
He went directly against the advice of the 9-1-1 operator by tracking M and by exiting his truck.
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Meaningless.
First off. Saying we do not need you to do something, is not the same as saying, do not do something.
Secondly, the call taker had no authority.


tessaesque said:
The behavior that Z describes in and of itself sounds wreckless, stupid, and inappropriate.
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No it doesn't. Zimmerman's actions were appropriate, prudent for his and his neighborhoods safety and to beat all, they were also legal. Which is why he will walk.



tessaesque said:
He created that situation through his behavior.
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No he didn't. Trayvon did by attacking him.


tessaesque said:
Had he gone by SOP and filed a report ...
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Show us where a man on his way to the store is required to follow these non-existent going to the store guidelines?


tessaesque said:
So you can talk about subjectivity all day, but it seems pretty obvious that Z acted less than intelligently the minute he disobeyed the 9-1-1 operated and began following M.
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OMG! Until you get your facts straight, you shouldn't even becoming to conclusions. Because you are simply wrong.


tessaesque said:
He did a lot of things the wrong way.
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Your use of "wrong" in this regards is subjective.
He didn't do anything that was illegal and therefor it was not wrong.


tessaesque said:
Dismissing his actions or throwing Martin under the bus to justify Zimmerman's actions up to the point of self defense is reckless.
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iLOL
His actions were clearly justified.
From getting out, to keeping Trayvon under observation, to shooting him. All justified.
And as for Trayvon being thrown under the bus... What a ridiculous thing to say.
Trayvon is directly responsible for his getting shot.
 
Kal'Stang said:
And how do you know? Do you have any bit of evidence that backs up your conjecture's? The only thing that we have is Z's word. Without anything else to disprove it we're SOL.
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There is plenty of other evidence. There is a 40 foot debris field, Dee's testimony and the phone records.. the medical evidence from the EMT's and George's doctor.... and then there's all those assinine, impossible narratives from George..

He says he's afraid, then he says he's not... He says Trayvon is menacing.. and then he says Trayvon is skipping and unafraid.

Have you ever dealt with a 6 year old who was fibbing? That's George.
 
sharon said:
There is plenty of other evidence. There is a 40 foot debris field, Dee's testimony and the phone records.. the medical evidence from the EMT's and George's doctor.... and then there's all those assinine, impossible narratives from George..

He says he's afraid, then he says he's not... He says Trayvon is menacing.. and then he says Trayvon is skipping and unafraid.
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iLOL
No there isn't.
You really need to come to grips with reality here...
This is what Serino last said publicly about this case.

I hope you understand it.

Serino said his investigation turned up no reliable evidence that cast doubt on Zimmerman's account – that he had acted in self-defense.

"The best evidence we have is the testimony of George Zimmerman, and he says the decedent was the primary aggressor in the whole event," Serino told the Sentinel March 16. "Everything I have is adding up to what he says."
​



Btw... skipping away... is and action done to purposely show one is not afraid.


sharon said:
Have you ever dealt with a 6 year old who was fibbing?
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That is daisha.
 
tessaesque said:
So the GF isn't credible because she was seeking punishment for the man who killed her boyfriend, but Zimmerman is credible because....???
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You started on the wrong foot....

Not M's girlfriend, but a friend. She's known M since grade school

The bottom line is...she wasn't there, she's inarticulate, she's bias and she didn't come forward until Crump talked her into it
 
sharon said:
There is plenty of other evidence. There is a 40 foot debris field, Dee's testimony and the phone records.. the medical evidence from the EMT's and George's doctor.... and then there's all those assinine, impossible narratives from George..
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40' debris field? Huh? Last I saw the pictures of that area look pretty darn clean to me.

Dee's testimony...the testimony of a distraught woman who just lost the person she loved and had lots of time to figure out exactly what she was going to tell the cops about Zimmerman. Yeah...thats real believeable testimony. :roll:

The EMT's and George's doctor will tell the facts. The EMT's will testify that Z had blood running down his face and had a broken nose. The doctor will confirm that Z had multiple lacerations on his head, a broken nose..though not a seperated septim..and bruiseing where Z said that M covered his mouth and nose. Pictures will corroberate both the EMT's and the Doctors statements. Your continual insistance about no head trauma is really irrelevent as a head trauma is about what is going on inside the skull and too the skull itself. And says nothing what so ever about the lacerations, abrasions or bruising. The Doctor will also no doubt note that he suggested (iirc strongly) to Z that he see a psychologist about what happened.

If his statements are "so impossible" then I'm sure that you have facts and evidence to back that up. Where is it?

sharon said:
He says he's afraid, then he says he's not... He says Trayvon is menacing.. and then he says Trayvon is skipping and unafraid.
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I believe that Z said he didn't think that M was afraid...given that M confronted Z that would suggest that he wasn't afraid. As for Z being afraid or not afraid perhaps you should get it right...he wasn't afraid initially...but he became very afraid for his life when M started pounding his head into the cement.

sharon said:
Have you ever dealt with a 6 year old who was fibbing? That's George.
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I've got two kids. One 7 the other 5. And I raised both my nieces as their mother sucked at it. If you think that Z acted like a 6 year old thats fibbing then you obviously have not dealt with enough 6 year olds.
 
Yep.. actually over 40 feet.. more like 47 feet.. and this has been explained to you repeatedly.. George was shimmying, squirming, scooting for 40 feet while Trayvon was sitting on him and banging, punching and smothering him without dropping his cell phone.

Kal'Stang said:
40' debris field? Huh? Last I saw the pictures of that area look pretty darn clean to me.

Dee's testimony...the testimony of a distraught woman who just lost the person she loved and had lots of time to figure out exactly what she was going to tell the cops about Zimmerman. Yeah...thats real believeable testimony. :roll:

The EMT's and George's doctor will tell the facts. The EMT's will testify that Z had blood running down his face and had a broken nose. The doctor will confirm that Z had multiple lacerations on his head, a broken nose..though not a seperated septim..and bruiseing where Z said that M covered his mouth and nose. Pictures will corroberate both the EMT's and the Doctors statements. Your continual insistance about no head trauma is really irrelevent as a head trauma is about what is going on inside the skull and too the skull itself. And says nothing what so ever about the lacerations, abrasions or bruising. The Doctor will also no doubt note that he suggested (iirc strongly) to Z that he see a psychologist about what happened.

If his statements are "so impossible" then I'm sure that you have facts and evidence to back that up. Where is it?



I believe that Z said he didn't think that M was afraid...given that M confronted Z that would suggest that he wasn't afraid. As for Z being afraid or not afraid perhaps you should get it right...he wasn't afraid initially...but he became very afraid for his life when M started pounding his head into the cement.



I've got two kids. One 7 the other 5. And I raised both my nieces as their mother sucked at it. If you think that Z acted like a 6 year old thats fibbing then you obviously have not dealt with enough 6 year olds.
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ric27 said:
You started on the wrong foot....

Not M's girlfriend, but a friend. She's known M since grade school

The bottom line is...she wasn't there, she's inarticulate, she's bias and she didn't come forward until Crump talked her into it
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Sounded to me like she said "yes" when she was interviewed by the cop when he asked her if they were going out. Though I will admit I may be wrong about that...she did mumble quite a bit. Or at least the recording made it sound like she did. Though I don't know of many non girlfriend/boyfriend's that talked near as much as she claims that her and M talked. But you are right about the biased part. From her own words she has known M since kindergarten. There was obviously a very strong bond between the two.
 
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