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A Question for shootists

lpast said:
That would be a lefthanded inside the belt holster worn on his right hip for a cross the body draw...why he would do that I have no idea...but that would cause him to need to draw the weapon backwards if he was on his back and couldnt get his left hand across his body to draw and had to draw with his right hand...Im not saying this happened now...I already said I didnt see the video demonstration...but thats what im gathering from what you posted.
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I have just wondered and wondered how George could pull the gun out of a holster with Trayvon sitting on top of him...and when I came across the demonstration by George I was even more confused.

Please don't think I have ANY expertise in this matter.. Recruit, Goshin and others understand this much better than I do.

However, I am utterly convinced that George is a liar.. and NOTHING happened as he said it did.

Sanford detective: Trayvon Martin never used deadly force - Teens - Modbee.com
 
sharon said:
I have just wondered and wondered how George could pull the gun out of a holster with Trayvon sitting on top of him...and when I came across the demonstration by George I was even more confused.

Please don't think I have ANY expertise in this matter.. Recruit, Goshin and others understand this much better than I do.

However, I am utterly convinced that George is a liar.. and NOTHING happened as he said it did.

Sanford detective: Trayvon Martin never used deadly force - Teens - Modbee.com
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Therein lies the problem with you and most of the people doing most of the Martin/Zimmerman posting: you've pre-judged the outcome.

I'll admit I have an opinion... but I'm willing to alter my opinion if convincing evidence otherwise is presented.

My opinion is that Z and M both did some stupid things that contributed to a situation where nobody had to die, but someone did anyway... generically speaking that describes a lot of fatal fights I've seen or knew about. However at this time I don't think there is evidence to convict Zimmerman of murder, 2nd or otherwise.... manslaughter at worst IMO, if the letter of the law is followed, and maybe not even that. However given all the publicity and public furor I don't think Z could get a fair trial and an unbiased jury anywhere in the USA at this point.
 
Goshin said:
Therein lies the problem with you and most of the people doing most of the Martin/Zimmerman posting: you've pre-judged the outcome.

I'll admit I have an opinion... but I'm willing to alter my opinion if convincing evidence otherwise is presented.

My opinion is that Z and M both did some stupid things that contributed to a situation where nobody had to die, but someone did anyway... generically speaking that describes a lot of fatal fights I've seen or knew about. However at this time I don't think there is evidence to convict Zimmerman of murder, 2nd or otherwise.... manslaughter at worst IMO, if the letter of the law is followed, and maybe not even that. However given all the publicity and public furor I don't think Z could get a fair trial and an unbiased jury anywhere in the USA at this point.
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Fair enough, Goshin.. Perhaps I have a bit more confidence in jurors setting aside bias in favor of evidence.. God knows I have served my jury obligations.. .. until the last time I called the county Sherrif and told him cut me some slack.. that I had just buried my mother and was trying to settle her estate. I also had a newborn.

I don't believe Trayvon had ANY control of the situation or circumstances.
 
sharon said:
Fair enough, Goshin.. Perhaps I have a bit more confidence in jurors setting aside bias in favor of evidence.. God knows I have served my jury obligations.. .. until the last time I called the county Sherrif and told him cut me some slack.. that I had just buried my mother and was trying to settle her estate. I also had a newborn.

I don't believe Trayvon had ANY control of the situation or circumstances.
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I must admit that the bolded statement causes me no small incredulity... but then you don't believe anything Z said so I suppose you might see it that way, however it leaves you with speculation only and virtually nothing as far as hard facts.

Things we know, exclusive of Zimmerman's testimony:

1. Martin was seen on top of Zimmerman by an eyewitness, performing what appeared to be assault on his person.
2. Zimmerman suffered various injuries consistent with being assaulted.
3. Zimmerman shot Martin.

The question of who initiated assault first is undeterminable outside Zimmerman's testimony. Conviction requires proof beyond reasonable doubt, and such is not obtainable in this case. Murder-2 is unproveable. Martin had no injuries indicating he was assaulted prior to the gunshot; Zimmerman did; this tends to support the notion that Martin assaulted first, along with the eyewitness account. At worst, manslaughter for excessive force in self-defense, if that. That's my opinion on the legal situation based on my experience as a cop and my studies in law.

All this peripheral stuff about whether Martin was a good kid or a doper, whether Zimmerman was a racist or not, etc.... is peripheral to me to those basic facts.

Politics can always change a verdict though...
 
There is some really weird stuff here.. witnesses hearing GZ saying.. I have a gun.. I have a gun.. Take my gun.

I have NO idea what that means.


buck said:
If Zimm, in the middle of the alleged beating, pulled his gun out and said - I have a gun - it would be pretty persuasive evidence that he was not actually in fear of his life. Someone that is truly in fear will not warn, they will take action. If Zimm pulled out his gun in the middle of the alleged beating and shot into the air, same. It would show that he was not truly in immediate fear of life.
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sharon said:
There is some really weird stuff here.. witnesses hearing GZ saying.. I have a gun.. I have a gun.. Take my gun.

I have NO idea what that means.
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That is weird. Link to those witnesses please. I have not heard that.
 
buck said:
That is weird. Link to those witnesses please. I have not heard that.
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Among the witness statements is one from a man who said he saw a dark-skinned man in a hoodie who was on top of a Hispanic man and punching him. The man yelled that he was going to call the police, and then he heard a "pop." However, the man admitted that he did not see the beginning of the scuffle. Another witness said he heard someone say "I've got a gun, I've got a gun," and "take my gun from me."
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Without seeing the entire statement, I am not certain what to make of it. However, I seem to recall Zimm saying that when the cops first came up, he told them he had a gun. I have a feeling this is what the witness was talking about.
 
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buck said:
That is weird. Link to those witnesses please. I have not heard that.
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I can't find it and I have been looking for an hour.

Specifically what was over heard is.. I have a gun, I have a gun, take my gun .... and the conversation was whether that was said before or after the gnshot.
 
sharon said:
I can't find it and I have been looking for an hour.

Specifically what was over heard is.. I have a gun, I have a gun, take my gun .... and the conversation was whether that was said before or after the gnshot.
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My understanding is that this is what he said to the police upon their arrival. Any CCW'er properly versed in post-shooting proceedure will wish to surrender their weapon to police as soon as possible, for their own safety.
 
Goshin said:
My understanding is that this is what he said to the police upon their arrival. Any CCW'er properly versed in post-shooting proceedure will wish to surrender their weapon to police as soon as possible, for their own safety.
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That makes sense.

Its referred to here..

JustOneMinute: The WaPo On The Zimmerman Evidence - Are They Kidding?

The documents include new details about what witnesses said they heard and saw that dark, rainy night outside their townhouse windows. One witness told police that he heard someone saying, “I’ve got a gun. I’ve got a gun.”

That is what the witness said and we will accept that is reflecting what the witness heard. However, that was *after* Zimmerman fired the fatal shot, when he had his hands up and was identifying himself to the approaching police officer. In fact (p. 41) the full quote is "I've got a gun, I've got a gun. Take my gun from me".
 
Goshin said:
Therein lies the problem with you and most of the people doing most of the Martin/Zimmerman posting: you've pre-judged the outcome.

I'll admit I have an opinion... but I'm willing to alter my opinion if convincing evidence otherwise is presented.

My opinion is that Z and M both did some stupid things that contributed to a situation where nobody had to die, but someone did anyway... generically speaking that describes a lot of fatal fights I've seen or knew about. However at this time I don't think there is evidence to convict Zimmerman of murder, 2nd or otherwise.... manslaughter at worst IMO, if the letter of the law is followed, and maybe not even that. However given all the publicity and public furor I don't think Z could get a fair trial and an unbiased jury anywhere in the USA at this point.
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I agree, but what everyone that critiques every word that is released and tries to disect its meaning...is forgetting. When two men are locked in a confrontation, it becomes mindless and tunnel visioned. There are ALWAYS mistakes made once the engagement starts, Pure emotion takes over, be it fear, rage, hate...no one is thinking and especially no on is thinking clearly and thats how situations like this occur.
I have an opinion as Goshen does, mine are never written in stone because I know better than to do that. I will share this..I do not think for one second that zimmerman is a murderous individual, I think zimmerman had a load in his pants and was frightened to the marrow of his bones...I think fear guided zimmerman...just my gut. He doesnt strike me a courageous fella...and he knows hes not a powerful physical presence...
 
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