Thread: Prosecutors content George Zimmerman provoked confrontation w/Trayvon Martin[W;164]

I've made it a point to keep a low profile concerning this Zimmerman/Martin case until more evidence came forward. According to MSN.com, an affidavidt was filed by the procecuting attorneys indicating that Zimmerman pursued Martin and confronted him, thus provoking the attack which led to Martin's death. If the allegations are true, I don't see Zimmerman being found not guilty for taking this young man's life.

You can read the affidavit here.

One thing the affidavit does make clear: Trayvon Martin was living (or more accurately visiting one of his parents; the affidavit doesn't make clear whether it was his mother or father) in the gated community Zimmerman believed him to be "casing" for a potential home invasion. The irony here is according to the affidavit, Zimmerman lived there, too.

Interesting bit about Martin's mother identifying the screams.

Originally Posted by Objective Voice

I've made it a point to keep a low profile concerning this Zimmerman/Martin case until more evidence came forward. According to MSN.com, an affidavidt was filed by the procecuting attorneys indicating that Zimmerman pursued Martin and confronted him, thus provoking the attack which led to Martin's death. If the allegations are true, I don't see Zimmerman being found not guilty for taking this young man's life.

You can read the affidavit here.

Interesting....Zimmerman "profiled" Martin. That's perjorative, and I think they're going to have a hard time proving that. "He assumed Martin was a criminal." I wonder who's assuming with that statement. Reporting a suspicious person does not mean he automatically assumed he was a criminal. He assumed he was a suspicious person. There's a difference. "Zimmerman confronted Martin." Good luck proving that with the evidence we know about. While it says that Trayvon's mother identified the cries for help as coming from her son, we know of another witness who said it was Zimmerman yelling. Hmmmm.

Very interesting. Sounds like a spin.

Originally Posted by MaggieD

Interesting....Zimmerman "profiled" Martin. That's perjorative, and I think they're going to have a hard time proving that. "He assumed Martin was a criminal." I wonder who's assuming with that statement. Reporting a suspicious person does not mean he automatically assumed he was a criminal. He assumed he was a suspicious person. There's a difference. "Zimmerman confronted Martin." Good luck proving that with the evidence we know about. While it says that Trayvon's mother identified the cries for help as coming from her son, we know of another witness who said it was Zimmerman yelling. Hmmmm.

Very interesting. Sounds like a spin.

Context is important. While Zimmerman is pursuing Martin, he says "These assholes get away with everything", and also says "****ing punk". That told the prosecutor that Zimmerman was indeed illegally profiling Martin. But don't take my word for it. It's in the prosecutor's affidavit, which I linked to in the other thread.

Originally Posted by MaggieD

Interesting....Zimmerman "profiled" Martin. That's perjorative, and I think they're going to have a hard time proving that. "He assumed Martin was a criminal." I wonder who's assuming with that statement. Reporting a suspicious person does not mean he automatically assumed he was a criminal. He assumed he was a suspicious person. There's a difference. "Zimmerman confronted Martin." Good luck proving that with the evidence we know about. While it says that Trayvon's mother identified the cries for help as coming from her son, we know of another witness who said it was Zimmerman yelling. Hmmmm.

Very interesting. Sounds like a spin.

MaggieD,

I'd buy your argument except you're forgetting one key point.

Per the 911 transcript and the affidavit, Zimmerman clearly stated to the 911 dispatcher, "these assholes; they always get away". By that very statement, at the very least Zimmerman assumed Trayvon was up to no good. He may not have assumed Trayvon was a criminal, but he certainly assumed he was in the housing development to commit a criminal act.

Suspecious person...? Yes, but it's one thing to think that someone is somewhere they shouldn't be because you consider something to be odd or out of place about him/her. It's another to jump to an instant conclusion that said person is up to no good and all you have to go by is his appearance. As such, Zimmerman did, in fact, profile Trayvon Martin. I don't think you can come to any other conclusion based on how events unfolded.

Now, just to play Devil's Advocate, let's recap what we do know base on media reports, eyewitness testimony ("John" and Mary Cutcher), the 911 transcript and the affidavit.

We know that there was a recent rash of burglaries in the neighborhood where Zimmerman lived.

We know that Zimmerman is been a member of a neighborhood watch group that patrolled the gated community where the shooting took place. (How long and how experienced hasn't been firmly establish, thus, is up for debate).

We know that Zimmerman took particular notice of someone who looked suspecious walking through his neighborhood presumably a Black teen wearing a dark hoodie.

We know that it was dark and raining out that night.

We know that Trayvon was walking "home" alone that night (again, I'm not sure if the home he was visiting was his mother's or father's) from the store during half-time of a NCAA college basketball game during March Madness.

We know that Zimmerman carried a concealled weapon towhich he had a permit and license to carry.

We know that per Neighborhood Watch rules Zimmerman was not suppose to be carrying a gun while on patrol.

We know that Trayvon only had a drink and candy on his person when the assault and subsequent gunfire took place.

We know that Zimmerman left his vehicle and followed Trayvon even after being asked not to do so by 911 dispatcher.

We know that Trayvon was concerned for who was following him and called his girlfriend and discussed events with her in real time.

We know that Trayvon dawned his "hoodie" and initially ran in an effort to elude his persuer. For a brief moment, Trayvon did elude Zimmerman, but a few moments later Zimmerman spotted him again.

It's at this point where things (for me) get sketchy...

According to the 911 transcript, Zimmerman mentioned that Trayvon was approaching him and that he had his hands in his waistband. But this was after Zimmerman was told by the 911 dispatcher not to continue following Trayvon. Zimmerman also informs the 911 dispatcher that Trayvon had something in his hands. That "something" his cellphone according to testimony from Trayvon's girlfriend. Remember: He had her on the phone up until the assault took place.

The affidavit states that Zimmerman confronted Trayvon. But according to testimony from Trayvons' girlfriend, it would apper that Trayvon verbally confront Zimmerman first asking him "What are you following me for?," towhich Zimmerman replied, "What are you doing here?". This is where the physical confrontation ensued.

According to "John", the man in dark attire (presumably Trayvon) was on top while the man in the red sweater (presumably was Zimmerman) was on the bottom. We know based on Zimmerman's conversation w/911 dispatcher that Trayvon was wearing a dark hoodie. John went inside his home to call police (911) but when he looked outside his window the man wearing the red sweater was now on top and the man in the dark attire was presumably dead. According to testimony from Mary Cutcher, she and her roommate both saw Zimmerman "straddling the body, basically a foot on both sides of Trayvon's body, and his hands pressed on his back."

When discussing the cried for help she and her roommate heard, Mary Cutcher stated, “It sounded young. It didn’t sound like a grown man is my point. It sounded to me like someone was in distress and it wasn’t like a crying, sobbing boo-hoo, it was a definite whine."

Cutcher added that Zimmerman told her and her roommate to call the police. "Zimmerman never turned him over or tried to help him or CPR or anything."

If events turn out to be anywhere near as outlined above - and I remind the readers the above summary is based on the 911 transcript, eyewitness testimony and testimony from Trayvon's girlfriend during their cellphone conversation leading up to the assault that ensued - odds are Zimmerman will be convicted of murder in the 2nd degree.

He assumed Trayvon was somewhere where he didn't belong.

He assumed Trayvon "was up to no good" based both on his attire (dark hoodie) and the fact that Trayvon was "standing and looking around". Little did Zimmerman know that Trayvon was talking with his girlfriend about events as they occurred and that he initially ran to elude his pursuer.

He assumed Trayvon was coming after him. He stated such himself.

He assumed Trayvon would do him bodily harm. You get that impression from the fact that: 1) Zimmerman stated that Trayvon was looking at him, 2) that Zimmerman was concerned about the placement of Trayvon's hands in his waistband, and 3) that Trayvon had something in his hands.

Unless it can be proven that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman first as I mentioned in this thread - whether it was because he was upset that Zimmerman was following him for no apparant reason (he hadn't done anything up to that point) and Zimmerman's defensive tone (Re: "Why are you here?") - it's going to be very difficult to prove that Zimmerman acted in self defense.

Originally Posted by cherrypickedfromObjectiveVoice

We know that per Neighborhood Watch rules Zimmerman was not suppose to be carrying a gun while on patrol.

This one is not going to go well for Zimmerman in court.

We know that Trayvon was walking "home" alone that night (again, I'm not sure if the home he was visiting was his mother's or father's) from the store during half-time of a NCAA college basketball game during March Madness.

It was his fathers girlfiends house.

We know that per Neighborhood Watch rules Zimmerman was not suppose to be carrying a gun while on patrol.

We do not know that. Not at all.

We know that Zimmerman left his vehicle and followed Trayvon even after being asked not to do so by 911 dispatcher.

This is also not true. Zimmerman was already out of his vehicle and following Martin when that part of the conversation took place. He did not leave his vehicle and follow after that. He actually lost Martin and was returning to his vehicle at the end of the call.

Unless it can be proven that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman first as I mentioned in this thread (Witness: Martin attacked Zimmerman) - whether it was because he was upset that Zimmerman was following him for no apparant reason (he hadn't done anything up to that point) and Zimmerman's defensive tone (Re: "Why are you here?") - it's going to be very difficult to prove that Zimmerman acted in self defense.

Zimmerman does not have to prove self defense. He only has to provide some evidence to support his claim. Which his injuries, and witness statement provide evidence. It is the prosecutions responsibility to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he did not act in self defense. I think that unless the prosecution can prove that Zimmerman started the fight, or that martin was retreating when the shots were fired that it will be hard for them to disprove his claim of self defense. Which is what is legally required.

Again, the sketchy part of this case is who assaulted whom first. As things stand, I'd think that the presecution can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman did have hostile intent. His statments, i.e., "they always get away with this" and "Why are you here?," plus the fact that he automatically assumed a defensive attitude first in noticing that Trayvon had his hands in his wasitband (nothing wrong with that; could be argued that Zimmerman was merely very observant, but it could also be assumed that Zimmerman though Trayvon might have a weapon of some sort on his person) and then questioning what Trayvon was carrying (his cell phone).

The presecution could easily present motive on these facts alone, that being that Zimmerman had already made up his mind that "'they' weren't going to get away with it (burlerizing another home in his neighborhood on his watch) this time".

Playing Devils' Advocate again, many people believe that Trayvon reached for Zimmerman's gun during the struggle. Well, who wouldn't if they notice that someone they're in a physical altercation with had a gun on them? Of course, Zimmerman could always make that argument, that Trayvon went for his weapon (which I believe he already has made that claim), but I question the validity of that claim. Again, we have the 911 transcript, as well as, John the witness' testimony.

John states the person in the dark attire was on top when he saw the fight prior to going into his home to call 911. Trayvon apparently had the upper hand over Zimmerman. But John never states in his testimony that he saw a gun. So, I ask how does Trayvon go from beating Zimmerman about the face and pounding his head into the ground to reaching for Zimmerman's weapon? Trayvon's hands are busy "beating" Zimmerman with his fists. Moreover, it takes both hands to fully grasp a person by the head in order to pound it into the ground. How does Trayvon go from "beating" Zimmerman mercilessly to reaching for Zimmerman's gun?

Also, we have to remember that although Trayvon initially had the upper hand in the fight, Zimmerman somehow turned the tied and gained the advantage. Returning to John's testimony, he clearly states that when he looked outside his bedroom window again while calling 911, he noticed that the "man in the red sweater was now on top". Furthermore, Mary Cuther also states in her testimony that after she and her roomate heard the gun shot, they saw Zimmerman "straddling the body, basically a foot on both sides of Trayvon's body". How then does someone who has the upper hand in a fight reach the conclusion that his life was in danger?

Unless Trayvon somehow got ahold of Zimmerman's weapon at some point after Zimmerman gained the upper hand, it is very difficult to believe that Trayvon was going to kill him with his hands and fist alone. And then we have the video footage from the police station after Zimmerman was taken into custody that doesn't show that Zimmerman sustain any life-threatening injuries, particularly on the back of his head. Pause the video at the 1:09 mark and take a really good look at the back of Zimmerman's head. Where are the injuries that should be there if someone had their head pounded repeatedly against the ground in a violent manner as Zimmerman claims Trayvon did to him? He stands in place for a good 6 seconds, long enough to get a good look.

There are atleast 3 different frontal shots of Zimmerman's face throughout the video. None are very clear shots, but in the 3rd facial shot around the 3:35 mark you can see from a profile shot that Zimmerman doesn't have bandages on his face. If he had a broken nose, wouldn't you expect to see:

a) bruising

b) a gash and/or evidence of bleeding

c) a bandage on his nose

Nothing...

Now, just to be fair, there's also enhanced video footage from CNN showing close-ups of the back of Zimmerman's head. They conclude that Zimmerman might have sustained some sort of injury to the back of his head. How it happend they don't speculate, but they do agree that Zimmerman does have a bump on the back of his head.

Granted, Zimmerman clearly received medical care upon being taken into custody, but if you've ever seen anyone of light complextion get hit in the face, you'll note they bruise easy especially from a broken nose. Moreover, usually their eyes are blacken. Where's such tail-tale signs on Zimmerman? Other than some serious icing, routine medical wouldn't clear up bruising.

Originally Posted by Mickey Shane

This one is not going to go well for Zimmerman in court.

Why? If the other party has the intent, opportunity, and the ability to cause great bodily harm or death, you are approved (and expected) to use lawful legal force to stop the threat.

Originally Posted by danarhea

Context is important. While Zimmerman is pursuing Martin, he says "These assholes get away with everything", and also says "****ing punk". That told the prosecutor that Zimmerman was indeed illegally profiling Martin. But don't take my word for it. It's in the prosecutor's affidavit, which I linked to in the other thread.

How would profiling come in to it with the words asshole and punk? What was he profiling the other guy to be?