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Objectivity & the Martin/Zimmerman Incident

How objective are you on the Martin/Zimmerman Incident?

  • I only use objective, unbiased facts.

    Votes: 4 21.1%

  • I assume/speculate on what may have happened.

    Votes: 1 5.3%

  • Honestly, I'm witholding judgment until new data, as found in an investigation, comes into play.

    Votes: 14 73.7%
  • Total voters
    19
Wake

Wake

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Is there any way we can have a conversation on this issue without using speculation, but the known facts? Having read numerous threads and side-issues from this one incident, it seems to me that many people are assuming what really happened. Whatever happened to the concept of "innocent until proven guilty?"

What are the known facts? I want us to discuss this issue using no speculation or assumptions. Perhaps in doing so we can come to a more logical and objective conclusion.
 
Wake said:
Is there any way we can have a conversation on this issue without using speculation, but the known facts? Having read numerous threads and side-issues from this one incident, it seems to me that many people are assuming what really happened. Whatever happened to the concept of "innocent until proven guilty?"

What are the known facts? I want us to discuss this issue using no speculation or assumptions. Perhaps in doing so we can come to a more logical and objective conclusion.
Click to expand...

Boo Hoo!! I can't vote. You don't have one that describes my thoughts and approach to Zimmerman/Martin. I'm a combination of using known facts (from police reports, actual 911 recordings) along with Zimmerman's girlfriend's testimony and Zimmerman's dad's testimony. I'm also taking into account some so-called expert testimony that says it wasn't Zimmerman screaming (although I must admit I'm discounting that as unreliable) and the enhanced video from the police station. All combined with a healthy dose of common sense.

Let's see -- known facts in my mind:

  • Per Zimmerman's testimony, he was on the way to the store when he spotted Martin.
  • Zimmerman was a very active member in the subdivisions informal neighborhood watch program.
  • Zimmerman called 911 and reported a suspicious person.
  • He wanted to keep him in line of sight, regardless of what the dispatcher said.
  • He got out of his car.
  • They somehow came together. We know this because Zimmerman's girlfriend tells us that...and, of course, common sense does too.
  • Martin asked Zimmerman: "Do you have a problem?" (Reported by both Martin's girlfriend and Zimmerman's dad.)
  • Zimmerman's dad says Zimmerman told him he said, "No," and reached for his cellphone.
  • Zimmerman got his face punched and his head bashed.
  • Witness (at least one....two?) put Martin on top of Zimmerman.
  • Witness says Zimmerman was yelling for help. (One witness says the coppers insisted she change her testimony, but only said this as the controversy got legs....so I don't know what to make of that.)
  • A so-called expert reports that it's not Zimmerman who's screaming.
  • Neighbors call police.
  • Zimmerman shoots Martin.
  • Martin is dead at the scene.
  • Zimmerman is treated by Sanford Fire Department at the scene, is handcuffed and taken to jail for 5 hours of questioning.
  • Two Sanford Police Dept officers document Zimmerman is injured.
  • Zimmerman is video'd at the police station, and a so-called expert enhanced the video showing a wound on the back of his head.
  • Zimmerman's father joined him at the police station.
  • Zimmerman's father was also present at a next-day re-enactment at the scene.
  • Zimmerman went into hiding...hasn't talked to the press...and has retained a criminal lawyer in anticipation of charges being filed.
I'm sure I've forgotten something, so feel free to take potshots. ;)
 
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Wake said:
Is there any way we can have a conversation on this issue without using speculation, but the known facts? Having read numerous threads and side-issues from this one incident, it seems to me that many people are assuming what really happened. Whatever happened to the concept of "innocent until proven guilty?"

What are the known facts? I want us to discuss this issue using no speculation or assumptions. Perhaps in doing so we can come to a more logical and objective conclusion.
Click to expand...

The sad thing is the media and our left wing leaders have this poor guy tried, convicted and sentenced before all the facts are out........I will wait until that is done before I convict the guy....
 
Navy Pride said:
The sad thing is the media and our left wing leaders have this poor guy tried, convicted and sentenced before all the facts are out........I will wait until that is done before I convict the guy....
Click to expand...

Some on the left condemn Zimmerman without due process, and some on the right condemn Martin/defend Zimmerman, without all the facts.
 
Wake said:
Some on the left condemn Zimmerman without due process, and some on the right condemn Martin/defend Zimmerman, without all the facts.
Click to expand...

I don't see the rallys supporting Zimmerman like I do for Martin..........what is really bad is Jackson and Sharpton have made it a racial issue when both men were minorities.......I have heard Zimmerman described as white by Sharpton,,,,,,He is not white as you know...He is Hispanic......
 
Navy Pride said:
I don't see the rallys supporting Zimmerman like I do for Martin..........what is really bad is Jackson and Sharpton have made it a racial issue when both men were minorities.......I have heard Zimmerman described as white by Sharpton,,,,,,He is not white as you know...He is Hispanic......
Click to expand...

Jackson and Sharpton are parasites. They aren't to be taken seriously.

It doesn't matter what the rallies think. All that matters is what the official, objective data shows.

No one should have turned this into a race issue. It is a major distraction.
 
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Wake said:
Is there any way we can have a conversation on this issue without using speculation, but the known facts? Having read numerous threads and side-issues from this one incident, it seems to me that many people are assuming what really happened. Whatever happened to the concept of "innocent until proven guilty?"

What are the known facts? I want us to discuss this issue using no speculation or assumptions. Perhaps in doing so we can come to a more logical and objective conclusion.
Click to expand...
I've developed a hypothesis using the known facts and witness testimonies including Martin's girlfriend.

That said, it's pretty clear which "side" of things this thread is geared towards.
 
Imo this picture is objective evidence, and must be understood, objectively.

enhanced.jpg

What we can tell from this picture is that Zimmerman sustained injuries on the back of his head. I can't say for certain when it happened, because I don't know, but the injury apparently corroborates Z's claim.
 
ThePlayDrive said:
I've developed a hypothesis using the known facts and witness testimonies including Martin's girlfriend.

That said, it's pretty clear which "side" of things this thread is geared towards.
Click to expand...

And why would that be? Because Wake is asking for known facts? I know this hamstrings a whole bunch of people, but surely that's not a slant of the thread....?
 
Wake said:
You don't know that. Please, don't assume.
Click to expand...
I can assume whatever I want. If you don't like my assumption, you don't have to agree with it. There's no reason to tell me what to do because you don't agree with it. It's that simple.
 
to me it sounds like both people ****ed up and someone died, but its a tentative conclusion in the absence of more facts.

Sent from my YP-G1 using Tapatalk. My YP-G1 is a very nice device that hardly ever explodes or shoots jets of burning acid at my face. Samsung has done a good job in that respect in building it. However one has to consider hamsters in regard to android as cyborg hamsters are very cool. Imagine how fast an Android hamster could run in their exercise wheel for example.
 
Wake said:
Is there any way we can have a conversation on this issue without using speculation, but the known facts? Having read numerous threads and side-issues from this one incident, it seems to me that many people are assuming what really happened. Whatever happened to the concept of "innocent until proven guilty?"

What are the known facts? I want us to discuss this issue using no speculation or assumptions. Perhaps in doing so we can come to a more logical and objective conclusion.
Click to expand...

The way I see it; he was arrested at the scene, after questioning they realized that this was classified under "justifiable homicide".

Now, the act of getting out of the car COULD be construed as escalating the situation, which would mean that he was the aggressor in the situation. In which case he should see a trial.

People calling Zimmerman a "white" person, it's the same way that Obama is called "black".

That said, this issue is a tar baby, the issue is so convoluted. It frustrates me that this is being pushed to increase racial tensions, and how there are tons of people that care about trayvon, yet they don't care about the countless gang killings that go on a daily basis.

Maybe he should have had a trial by jury to decide, but the cops involved were clearly made to believe that this was a case where Zimmerman felt his life threatened and so defended himself... Which is justifiable and not something to face a trial over.
 
Well, there is one honest man here among the less than ten.
I could have, would have voted all three......better... no vote, but this has become tiresome.
And,to think, if Florida had the balls to have and enforce meaningful gun laws, Mr Martin would still be alive !!!
 
There are two facts that matter.

1) Zimmerman shot and killed Martin by his own admission.
2) The precise circumstances of how that happened are not clear.

The rest of the evidence put forth by the media is hardly trustworthy. We have two reported witnesses, one the girl friend of the dead and the others are anonymous. We have unknown "forensic experts" drawing unverifiable conclusions based on audio and video tapes.

We have a Grand Jury convening on April 10, hopefully they will shed should truth onto the issue.
 
How is this story progressing?

On a black radio channel today I heard the host comment that "this murderer must be brought to justice."

I am so sick of this issue.

What currently do we know of this issue? We know Z shot and killed Martin, and per what rathi said we don't know the precise circumstances of what happened. Has the investigation resolved, and if not how much longer do you think it will be? There were pictures from, iirc, ABC that showed there were red gashes on the back of Z's head; that supports Z's claim that his head was smacked against the pavement.

What else do we know for certain? I can't trust the media. **** them. There's not much objective data to go on. Partisans have swarmed this issue and like diarrhea in the toilet, they've clouded up the clear water.
 
If you're sick of this issue, may I suggest you refrain from making more threads about it?
 
DiAnna said:
If you're sick of this issue, may I suggest you refrain from making more threads about it?
Click to expand...

That's irrelevant.

Though the issue is sickening, that in no way means new threads to gather info shouldn't be made.
 
I've looked at it objectively, and all the evidence points to Zimmerman being innocent and there are no legitimate charges that can be brought against him.

We know for a fact that isn't going to matter, and the 'legal' system will throw him under the bus for it's own convenience and political pressure, and no trial is going to produce any more solid evidence.

Zimmerman, not being wealthy and already pre-convicted and condemned, has zero chance of a fair trial, and his only recourse is to either flee or commit suicide. He's toast, and even an acquittal and full exoneration is still a death sentence for him. He's the 'wrong' color.

Eric Holder has proven yet again he's complete vermin, claiming to be 'looking into Federal charges' against Zimmerman, and this with a straight face after refusing to prosecute a hate group for one of the most blatant examples of voter intimidation in the last 30 years. He should be investigated himself, if not at least forced to resign.

This case is yet another example of why the 'system' has next to zero credibility, and falling.
 
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MaggieD said:
Boo Hoo!! I can't vote. You don't have one that describes my thoughts and approach to Zimmerman/Martin. I'm a combination of using known facts (from police reports, actual 911 recordings) along with Zimmerman's girlfriend's testimony and Zimmerman's dad's testimony. I'm also taking into account some so-called expert testimony that says it wasn't Zimmerman screaming (although I must admit I'm discounting that as unreliable) and the enhanced video from the police station. All combined with a healthy dose of common sense.

Let's see -- known facts in my mind:

  • Per Zimmerman's testimony, he was on the way to the store when he spotted Martin.
  • Zimmerman was a very active member in the subdivisions informal neighborhood watch program.
  • Zimmerman called 911 and reported a suspicious person.
  • He wanted to keep him in line of sight, regardless of what the dispatcher said.
  • He got out of his car.
  • They somehow came together. We know this because Zimmerman's girlfriend tells us that...and, of course, common sense does too.
  • Martin asked Zimmerman: "Do you have a problem?" (Reported by both Martin's girlfriend and Zimmerman's dad.)
  • Zimmerman's dad says Zimmerman told him he said, "No," and reached for his cellphone.
  • Zimmerman got his face punched and his head bashed.
  • Witness (at least one....two?) put Martin on top of Zimmerman.
  • Witness says Zimmerman was yelling for help. (One witness says the coppers insisted she change her testimony, but only said this as the controversy got legs....so I don't know what to make of that.)
  • A so-called expert reports that it's not Zimmerman who's screaming.
  • Neighbors call police.
  • Zimmerman shoots Martin.
  • Martin is dead at the scene.
  • Zimmerman is treated by Sanford Fire Department at the scene, is handcuffed and taken to jail for 5 hours of questioning.
  • Two Sanford Police Dept officers document Zimmerman is injured.
  • Zimmerman is video'd at the police station, and a so-called expert enhanced the video showing a wound on the back of his head.
  • Zimmerman's father joined him at the police station.
  • Zimmerman's father was also present at a next-day re-enactment at the scene.
  • Zimmerman went into hiding...hasn't talked to the press...and has retained a criminal lawyer in anticipation of charges being filed.
I'm sure I've forgotten something, so feel free to take potshots. ;)
Click to expand...

I did actual give a vote, but like you, I think it is a combination of the two. We can weigh in on what we know, but final judgment will likely depend on what we don't know.
 
I think the Stand Your Ground law is the larger problem than the parties involved. This type of incident was going to happen sooner or later. In my opinion.
 
Blue Dog said:
I think the Stand Your Ground law is the larger problem than the parties involved. This type of incident was going to happen sooner or later. In my opinion.
Click to expand...

I still don't understand those posters who believe SYG Laws had anything to do with this. SYG simply means one has no duty to run and that one can't be civilly sued based on the premise that "He didn't have to shoot; he could've hit him with a lamp instead."
 
MaggieD said:
I still don't understand those posters who believe SYG Laws had anything to do with this. SYG simply means one has no duty to run and that one can't be civilly sued based on the premise that "He didn't have to shoot; he could've hit him with a lamp instead."
Click to expand...

It may have been easier to arrest Zimmerman and charge him if retreat was the mandate not stand your ground. IMHO
 
Oberon said:
I've looked at it objectively, and all the evidence points to Zimmerman being innocent and there are no legitimate charges that can be brought against him.

We know for a fact that isn't going to matter, and the 'legal' system will throw him under the bus for it's own convenience and political pressure, and no trial is going to produce any more solid evidence.

Zimmerman, not being wealthy and already pre-convicted and condemned, has zero chance of a fair trial, and his only recourse is to either flee or commit suicide. He's toast, and even an acquittal and full exoneration is still a death sentence for him. He's the 'wrong' color.

Eric Holder has proven yet again he's complete vermin, claiming to be 'looking into Federal charges' against Zimmerman, and this with a straight face after refusing to prosecute a hate group for one of the most blatant examples of voter intimidation in the last 30 years. He should be investigated himself, if not at least forced to resign.

This case is yet another example of why the 'system' has next to zero credibility, and falling.
Click to expand...
OJ Simpson and Casey Anthony were "tried" in the media, received fair trials and were found innocent. Anybody who is crying about the "system" having no credibility in light of those facts and before the trial has even started is just melodramatic. Jesus Christ people. Get a grip.
 
Blue Dog said:
I think the Stand Your Ground law is the larger problem than the parties involved. This type of incident was going to happen sooner or later. In my opinion.
Click to expand...
I used to be of the opinion that Stand Your Ground was an okay law, but I agree with you now. It's a problem because anybody can claim they felt threatened and just murder someone. I understand what SYG is supposed to accomplish, but I think better laws can be crafted to suit that purpose.
 
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