bub

- Unlike the driver of a criminal who's just robbed a bank and helped him to escape the police, the help of this guy hasn't provided anything to OBL (except the comfort of not driving himself maybe). This guy wasn't even involved in A/Q, it was just a car driver and hasn't had ANY influence on what has happened during the 9/11 or the various attacks involving A/Q

As PeteEU said, you could also condemn his maid or his cook... and what about the CIA? THEY have trained him! THEY gave him wapons and money! Why aren't they condemned too?

So, not only what he has done is totally insignificant, he has also

- been detained during 6 years without trial (which is a violation of the 5th and 6th articles of the ECHR) Article 5 ECHR - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

- been prevented from seeing the "proofs", the witnesses that are against him (which is a violation of the 6th article of the ECHR)

- been judged by military judges, which the court said is unfair and in violation of the same 6th article ( Article 6 ECHR - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )

- had extremely poor conditions of detention and has had degrading treatments, which is a violation of the 3rd article of the ECHR ( European Convention on Human Rights - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )

- been prevented from using a remedy (McCain says it's OK) which is a violation of article 13 of the ECHR


So, this trial violates articles 3 (degrading treatments), 5 (too long delays), 6 (unfair trial) and 13 (no remedy) of the ECHR, and would be annuled for violation of basic human rights if it had been done in Europe.

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Goobieman

Is the US party to the ECHR?

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DeeJayH

source for 1st paragraph please
rest of your post - don't really care about your ECHR

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bub

Not really, it's just an observer (remark that even countries like Russia and Turkey are members of the European Council)

But my point was rather to show how unfair the trial was. Right to a fair trial (like the other human rights) isn't a specifically European concept, it should be applied worldwide.

Goobieman

Well then, what you're arguing here has as much relevance to the issue at hand as Texas state law has in Paris.

Supposedly not living up the standards of the ECHR doesnt in any way shape or form illustrate that the trals were unfair.

So, again, I ask:

-Can you describe the processes and procedures at a US Military tribunal?
-Can you compare/contrast these processes and procedures to a criminal trial in the US justice system?

If your answer to these questions is "no", then there's no way you can argue that the dorkbutt in question didnt get a fair trial.

bub

"the jurors didn't agree with the (attorney general?), according to them the driver wasn't part of the plot or association who carried out terrorist actions. He is thus not guilty for this"

A Guantanamo, l'ancien chauffeur d'Oussama Ben Laden a été reconnu coupable - Amériques - Le Monde.fr

(sorry for the bad translation)

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/07/wa...us&oref=slogin


once more, these are basic human rights and are intended to be applied worldwide. It is a pity that the military tribunal considers them as facultative.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/07/wa...us&oref=slogin

Goobieman

Once more, that the trial supposely didnt meet these standards, it doesnt in any way mean it wasnt fair.

bub

If it was about speed limits or minor crimes, then you'd be right.
But here's about human rights, which should be applied WORLDWIDE.

Foreign tribunals can be competent for such cases:

Belgium has voted a "law of universal competences" and has condemned Rwandan politicians (for the genocide), Pinochet...So have Canada and Switzerland.

Once more, it's not for minor crimes. It's to protect the human rights


Why not? A cat is a cat, from Buthan to Alaska. A fair trial in Europe is not different from a fair trial in the USA.

I could not describe these procedures with precision, of course, but I know enough to affirm that the trial was unfair: it was too long, he has endured degrading treatments, has been judged by an unfair tribunal and has no remedy. That is the evidence of an unfair tribunal, independently of the "processes and procedures".

Tashah

Brilliant except for one item counselor. This trial wasn't held in Europe.

Is my memory fuzzy? I seem to remember the European powers hanging quite a few Nazi war criminals who were convicted by tribunal. Many others were sentenced to life imprisonment at Nuremberg and at other trial venues.

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Goobieman

Thanks for playing, bub.