WI Crippler

The problem is that there is this illusion regarding humanity. You can see it with the protests about this. Its always "We are supposed to be better than that" or "we should be above that". Well, where does that put the other guy, whom they don't require this from? It firmly places us above them, or them below us. It gives us an illusion of somehow being better than others. What we should be trying to do, is not try to be better than others, but to ask those that are "below" us, to achieve a higher standard themselves. All people should be striving to achieve greater things, even ourselves. But we need to require this of others as well. This is where we fail. And the ones who refuse need to be removed from power or eliminated. Make no mistake, Islamic extremists are men of force. There is only one thing men of force respect, and that is even greater force. Barbarians have no respect for scholars.

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"What Jesus fails to appreciate is that it's the meek who are the problem."- Reg

DeeJayH

but you all need to understand that when the US plays music loud or makes men stand naked or stay awake
that is much worse than stadiums used for torture or execution and rape rooms under dictatorships
why would you waterboard someone who stones to death gays and adulterers?
you ****ing americans put to death murderers every year, yet you think you can denounce and try and change regimes that kill millions just because they ahve different political views than those in power
wtf is wrong with americans and what we used to stand for

[/sarcasm]

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These days it seems that the deadliest place on earth for an American to be is inside the womb. - Joshua P. Allem

GySgt

Who? Where? Since the media, political, and global anti-American **** storm hit, every single body that even utters the name GITMO has been a victim of "torture." A prisoner can be there one day and his story will be one of torture. America didn't do this. The world did. Everyone's quest to describe the situation as exaggerated as they have has made this effort impossible now. Even before anythinig even happened, the world was insisting that America grovel and declare that there will be no "torture." Such a demand insults us and we refused to play the game. Soon enough, every thing we did was being placed under a microscope and analyzed. Our techniques were being scrutinized and dictated by non-Americans. Now, there's not a terrorist alive that won't declare he's been tortured when captured.

I'm only shocked at how the world played into their hands and gave them their argument if captured.


This is another cultural dfifference. I don't understand how people can't see this about Americans. We don't forget easily. We may forgive if the situation demands immediate growth like in Japan or Germany but we don't forget. We may even look away if the situation benefits us like in Saudi Arabia or Congo (France). But if there are two things that is constant, we do not refrain from hitting back very hard if hit and we do not turn our backs on friends (even when they are not hit). No matter the event, France would have had America standing in front. And when our friends choose to scoff us in public, it hurts. They have always done this, but this was as blunt as even I thought I'd never see. We are a young country. we aren't as used to treachery between friends as European countries are. We will not seek to behave in the same manner, but we are now cautious of what others will do to us.



Sure I agree. But, in the end, America will be blamed for what ever goes wrong here. Watch and see. Bush will be blamed for being a hawk. His "severe warning" will be portrayed as a threat where we didn't seek a "peaceful" avenue. America will be blamed for instigating a fight because we have had Marines training in Georgia for years. We will be blamed for selling the Georgians weapons. Cheney will be blamed because of his words about Russia being in the G8. It will always come back to the world's favorite scapegoat. Hell, if things break out beyond Georgia, all of Europe will blame America because it wasn't prepared to protect Europe as it was during the Cold War because of Iraq. No matter what happens, America will be blamed because the absence of "peace" always means that America did something. Never do we here that things happened because people didn't get involved in time.

I may be paranoiac. But, I'm merely reflecting on the history of things.

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GySgt
Semper Fidelis
USMC

GySgt

That's because scholars fall all over themselves to find ways to respect the barbarian.

WI Crippler

Its the whole "pen is mightier than the sword" myth. Laws don't pertain to the unlawful.

DeeJayH

amen
but so many 'civilized' (read pretentious) people think they can survive, surrounded by barbarians, so long as they maintain their civility
but if you get down in the muck, you are gonna get dirty
it would be wonderful if the real world matched their ideal world
but it aint, its a goal, not reality
and reality is ugly and dangerous, and does not succomb to words but actions

to put in modern terms
if you go to a debate, you better have lots of information to make verbal points with
if you go to a MMA fight, you better be ready to kick ass

bub

Well it has happened in Abu Grahib and several US soldiers have been condemned, so it's very plausible that it has happened again in Guantanamo.

Then (even if some people use this as an argument to criticize the USA in general) I don't see why being shocked by these methods are "anti-american", many Americans are just as shocked as me.




You see, I talk about China and Russia, and you answer that Europe is treacherous. Maybe you should think about something else sometimes!

Germans have invaded my country twice last century, and that has cause a lot of death and destruction, but we don't have the resentment you seem to have towards Europe.




You don't even criticize us about what we said about USA and Georgia, you are bitching about what some Europeans "could have said" or "are possibly going to say"!

Sure there will certainly be some people going to blame the USA, but as you said about Guantanamo, whatever Bush does, there will always be a guy saying that he's wrong, in Europe, but also in the USA.

I think you focus too much on them.

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GySgt

Doesn't it say something about America that those few soldiers were condemned? We aren't shocked over bad behavior. It is going to happen. It has happened in every war. What shocks us is how our "friends" seek to salivate over the chance to drag us through the mud, despite what we do to deal with our own. Our critics absolutely love it when soldiers screw up, because they love the opportunity to criticize. They don't care that history suggests that there will be hearings and that we will clean house internally. They don't care that history suggests that we go so far out of our way to cater to the humanitarian need that we frequently let the bad guy escape. All they care about is that some one screwed up and they get a chance to smear us. We wind up focusing more on what our allies say about us than we care about the actual deed, because we know we will take care of our own issues.

That's because we have spent over half a century doing for Europe, which includes Germany. We have spent over a century doing for Asia, which includes Japan. I have seen European forces behave over cautious and refrained from behaving as a true military when American forces are there to do it. I have seen humanitarian efforts hiccup because of the sensibilities of some European forces in the regions. And it is not because of the militaries. It is because of their governments and their institutions. This sense that America is to be relied upon for even defense (Bosnia) is no longer something Americans aren't aware of. With a minimal effort in Bosnia and now in Afghanistan, the efforts around the world to protect the free world is horribly unbalanced. I am very aware that Europe will never be in a position to do what we are capable of doing around the world, but it can no longer sit on the side lines offering a small number of troops to show "support."

Russia is on its way back. Despite being a member of the G8 (as stupid a miscalculation as it was to give it and China seats at the UN Security Councel), Russia threatens to disrupt their former Soviet Bloc nations. If the famous quote of NATO's goal is true... "to keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down"...then why would France seek to be independant? - (rhetorical). Why, with all of extended Europe, would NATO not have a standing military worth speaking about? Why does it take America to fly over 60 percent of the sorties over Bosnia 50 years after WWII? Why would NATO continue to have troubles deploying and doing its part (while being criticized by even European leader) almost 10 years later?

My resentment is that I am tired of expecting the minimum and never being dissapointed. I am tired of entertaining European criticism that holds no basis of integrity. Why do nations like France get to scoff at America for taking down Saddam Hussein and point at the depravity of other nations to try to deter us as if they would be on board either way, yet silence themselves as soon as America and Britian finally get the feeble UN to open the doors to the Sudan? Why must we continue to pretend that nations like France and Germany have ever really done a thing for us? One of these nation's sought to kill us in the 40s and the other sought a means to pull away to seek former glory at any cost to the integrity of the free world in the 60s. What have they really done for us that they feel that they have the moral obligation to point at our mistakes while we do for them? This is what I resent.....

Pew Research Center: Global Opinion: The Spread of Anti-Americanism


"Will" say. If not in defense of Europe, France and others have never failed to criticize. We heard nothing about our contributions to WWII. We heard nothing about our contributions to Bosnia and Kososvo. Were not civilians killed in these events as they were in Vietnam, Korea, and Iraq? Why not the criticism for deaths in Afghanistan? Two reasons.....1) For the defense of Europe, all is forgiven and perfectly acceptable.....and 2) NATO is a participant. Everything that does not involve NATO or European defense is open for blasting. No one else matters.


Even Somalia, where the coalition of European forces were supposed to be united, saw a ridiculous amount of in fighting amongst the Western nations about who was in charge of what. We got far more cooperation from Asian and Middle Eastern forces. Of the European players, the Belgians actually stood out from the rest (my unit replaced them and they were sent to help the British sector - very good interrogators). France was the worst and demanded an apology from America for not consulting with them before sending Marines to the beach (UN approval didn't matter to them then). They never care that they will agree. They simply want to be acknowledged. The Italians allowed Aidid's militia to roam freely in their sector as long as they didn't stir up trouble for them (no matter that they would launch attacks on UN shipments in everybody else's sector and Marines had to play hop scotch chasing them about). And Germany? Despite sending some troops, which found favor in shooting unarmed blacks, they were still very much hiding under WWII mandates only to emerge later for Bosnia where they did everything possible to find excuses for not participating actively.

So, I have enough understanding about how things work to hold some resentment towards some people who have found great comfort in waiting for America to make mistakes despite how little they do to participate.

Well, it is said that the greatest way to measure a people is by their educational institutions and their military. Being in the military, I have been exposed to the typical happenings of the UN, NATO, and coalition forces. Hell, my last unit worked with NATO HQ in Norfolk Virginia. I tend to focus on exactly what defines the problem. I've stated this before....it isn't so much Europeans, but their governments and intellectual institutions. I can walk around Europe for a week and probably only experience some snobbery when I drive through France. The problems are in the diplomatic arena and Europe's long arm (and lack thereof).

marxmymentor

I feel sympethetic to the Bin Ladin driver. Blackwater gets away with there crimes and there charging a low level driver. The man drove him. Ok he didnt give him up. Who cares. Its no diffrent than driving bush around. I think blackwater needs to be tried. America and there political prisoners.