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Why the Law Enforcement Model Is Ineffective Against Terrorism

I have always said that the wars in the middle east, if we want to win them, are about winning the hearts and minds of the people there. We will never win by brute force. So far, we are losing the war of culture.

I read a good piece, which I am going to try and find, that talked about how a lot of the terrorist converts are actually disenfranchised young people looking for a rebellious cause to join, like so many young people do all over the world. It just so happens that at present time, it's the jihadis who are giving them an outlet. Most of the terrorists fit the 18-29 male demographic.

I mean think about it... your country has been bombed to hell, your government has either been deposed or installed by a foreign power, there are foreign soldiers walking your streets, your country's infrastructure is in shambles, etc. Of course young people are angry. And that makes them easy targets for recruitment.

Honestly, if we really wanted to win the unwinnable war on terror, we could have done things soooo much more intelligently. If it was earnest, we would have made better attempts to win the hearts of the people, but we haven't tried at all. We forced our way in, sold the corporate contracts to the highest bidders, setup shop, and now we are basically defending corporate assets and supply routes. It's the very definition of insanity.

Now it has spiraled into a never ending security situation. What do people expect?

Blaming the immigration problem on improper interrogation and intelligence gathering is blaming the tail end of a very long, long list of **** ups in foreign policy.
 
Abbazorkzog said:
Military is even worse. Now, paramilitary is a different story.
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When I was a contractor in a Brit "para" military unit, we did what we had to do to get the information, and were also not affiliated with the armed forces of any one country. That means we pretty much did what those that paid us to do and did it very effectively. The only rules we followed were...WE WIN, they loose.

No nation's military can do what needs to be done to combat these people. They are not committed politically, or are committed as long as one person is in office. You cannot fight Daeche(sp) that way. These half-assed pinpricks are annoying them, but not stopping them.

What is needed is a multinational "foreign legion" if you can call it that, whose main job is to hit the ground at the right time and do what needs to be done, then send in another stick to do the next mission. Foreign professional operators are the best way to avoid little PR issues and "humanitarian" concerns any sensitive countries might have. They will be in it for the duration, and NOT controlled by any non-committal wimps.

Insert them into a country, establish a training base, ensure they have logistics and air support by the international community, then...

"cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war!".
 
Jack Hays said:
This war is for the special operators and the CIA.
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They have the technical ability, but their biggest handicap is they are controlled by a government. Sooner or later, this government will loose its will to go on. We do it all the time now.

A PARAmilitary force like I proposed would not be under any one government's control and should be given free reign to fight the war as it needs to be fought.....DIRTY!

I DO NOT rule out any public beheadings of Deashe leaders either. No one that expects to win on the ground can expect to fight with white gloves and have "rules" handicapping its fighters. Them not being under any countries flag will make this possible.
 
Jack Hays said:
I must disagree. I don't believe there are any "appropriately structured laws and procedures" for the Long War. Our enemy has erased the combatant/noncombatant line and is certainly no respecter of the laws of war.
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This isn't a failure of law enforcement but simple human failure. PRIOR to the attacks the Europeans were like us prior to 9/11- not focused and giving the terrorists a high enough priority. The police are quite capable of engaging in lengthy interrogations- surveillance and electronic snooping. That they didn't isn't a failure of the system but human failure... :peace
 
RetiredNSmilin said:
They have the technical ability, but their biggest handicap is they are controlled by a government. Sooner or later, this government will loose its will to go on. We do it all the time now.

A PARAmilitary force like I proposed would not be under any one government's control and should be given free reign to fight the war as it needs to be fought.....DIRTY!

I DO NOT rule out any public beheadings of Deashe leaders either. No one that expects to win on the ground can expect to fight with white gloves and have "rules" handicapping its fighters. Them not being under any countries flag will make this possible.
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So your concept would be to create our own unlawful combatants? I see a number of practical problems. To whom would they report? From who receive intel support? How would they coordinate with friendly forces?
 
notquiteright said:
This isn't a failure of law enforcement but simple human failure. PRIOR to the attacks the Europeans were like us prior to 9/11- not focused and giving the terrorists a high enough priority. The police are quite capable of engaging in lengthy interrogations- surveillance and electronic snooping. That they didn't isn't a failure of the system but human failure... :peace
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It's a failure to understand the urgency of CT operations. Very relaxed and . . . Belgian. As I posted elsewhere, clownishly incompetent.
 
Jack Hays said:
I don't believe I made myself clear. This war, sooner or later, will be conducted with a complete absence of law.
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Afternoon Jack.
Could you expand on the complete absence of Laws of war you see coming?.
Special forces- EU and taking down ISIL in say Libya and AStan.
Are you referring to not adhering to the Laws of War- Geneva conventions and other protocols?
ISIL- AQ captured in 3rd world countries, no intelligence value, execution on site?

ISIL supporters, returned from Syria- Iraq- There are laws for that.

Now supporters- Net or financial there are laws for that.
 
Jack Hays said:
It's a failure to understand the urgency of CT operations. Very relaxed and . . . Belgian. As I posted elsewhere, clownishly incompetent.
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The country is, the EU is.
 
JANFU said:
Afternoon Jack.
Could you expand on the complete absence of Laws of war you see coming?.
Special forces- EU and taking down ISIL in say Libya and AStan.
Are you referring to not adhering to the Laws of War- Geneva conventions and other protocols?
ISIL- AQ captured in 3rd world countries, no intelligence value, execution on site?

ISIL supporters, returned from Syria- Iraq- There are laws for that.

Now supporters- Net or financial there are laws for that.
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As I have posted elsewhere, I think the period we regard as "normal" (19th & 20th centuries) will come to be regarded as a quaint interlude. Yes, I refer to abandonment of Laws of War/Geneva Conventions. It will really not be much of a change since no US opponent since WW2 has had any regard for them. Foes who target civilians and hide among noncombatant populations render the Laws of War obsolete. Enemy prisoners who seek martyrdom cannot be interrogated or even controlled by conventional means. Etc.
 
Jack Hays said:
As I have posted elsewhere, I think the period we regard as "normal" (19th & 20th centuries) will come to be regarded as a quaint interlude. Yes, I refer to abandonment of Laws of War/Geneva Conventions. It will really not be much of a change since no US opponent since WW2 has had any regard for them. Foes who target civilians and hide among noncombatant populations render the Laws of War obsolete. Enemy prisoners who seek martyrdom cannot be interrogated or even controlled by conventional means. Etc.
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I take it that this does not apply to US-EU citizens, captured on their native soil. Not in a 3rd world contry
The interrogation of that fellow was lame, a good Corporal would have done a far superior job.
Now Schengen- It will not remain as completely open borders.
 
JANFU said:
I take it that this does not apply to US-EU citizens, captured on their native soil. Not in a 3rd world contry
The interrogation of that fellow was lame, a good Corporal would have done a far superior job.
Now Schengen- It will not remain as completely open borders.
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We would obviously treat Allied citizens differently, but their own governments may well evolve more appropriate ways to deal with them as well.
 
Jack Hays said:
We would obviously treat Allied citizens differently, but their own governments may well evolve more appropriate ways to deal with them as well.
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Longer prison sentences, those that provided even a lick of support, face the same charges, and life means life in prison.
Next - forbid- deny entry to Saudi trained Imams. The Ghetto in Brussels and radicalization is one that can be partly but clearly laid at Saudi's doorstep. Tier Imams radicalize Muslims.
Multi national Intelligence cells in each country, sharing Intel. And faster exchange of such Intel

Now throwing the Laws of War aside, my opinion, will not happen.
 
JANFU said:
Longer prison sentences, those that provided even a lick of support, face the same charges, and life means life in prison.
Next - forbid- deny entry to Saudi trained Imams. The Ghetto in Brussels and radicalization is one that can be partly but clearly laid at Saudi's doorstep. Tier Imams radicalize Muslims.
Multi national Intelligence cells in each country, sharing Intel. And faster exchange of such Intel

Now throwing the Laws of War aside, my opinion, will not happen.
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Problem with multi-national intel sharing is that the level of exchange is determined by the party in the room whom you trust least.
 
Jack Hays said:
Problem with multi-national intel sharing is that the level of exchange is determined by the party in the room whom you trust least.
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And unless that changes, we will have a lot more that slip thru.
 
Jack Hays said:
Then you will be defeated.
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but i like my feat

and that seems like bull **** might be attacked that dosent mean terrorist will rule the planet or even hold onto territory indefinitely

no need to embrace the murder torture boner some o you guys have
 
Jack Hays said:
So your concept would be to create our own unlawful combatants? I see a number of practical problems. To whom would they report? From who receive intel support? How would they coordinate with friendly forces?
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Jack, It would not be "ours" as in the US. It would be a global strike force.

Seeuns how Paris is considered the capitol of the world to some, and French is the diplomatic language, I would suggest France as being its base, as they have done pretty well with the Foreign Legion already.

English is becoming the international language, so that would be the language of the strike force, and even though their main HQ would be in France, I can see main operating bases in geographic strong points throughout the globe.

Transportation would be whose ever military was close enough until they got their own vehicles. The US, UK, FRance, Israel, and Russian all have "spook ships" that do transport of items their respective governments prefer no one know they are moving. That would be a good start.

Remember that million dollar gas station we built out in the middle of nowhere? Does anyone think its main job is to pump gas?

Similar "gas stations" could be built in likely areas for command & control, and rather than have strike force troops sitting around in the Middle East in barracks as targets, they only need be brought to the scene as needed.

Support aircraft would have new markings of the strike force as they are being utilized, regardless of what country they are from.

There are plenty of out-of-work Spetznaz, Seals, SAS, and others that would jump at the chance to get back in the game. Hell, if the pay is good enough, they might even get some defectors from Daeshe come over and cross the line.
 
RetiredNSmilin said:
Jack, It would not be "ours" as in the US. It would be a global strike force.

Seeuns how Paris is considered the capitol of the world to some, and French is the diplomatic language, I would suggest France as being its base, as they have done pretty well with the Foreign Legion already.

English is becoming the international language, so that would be the language of the strike force, and even though their main HQ would be in France, I can see main operating bases in geographic strong points throughout the globe.

Transportation would be whose ever military was close enough until they got their own vehicles. The US, UK, FRance, Israel, and Russian all have "spook ships" that do transport of items their respective governments prefer no one know they are moving. That would be a good start.

Remember that million dollar gas station we built out in the middle of nowhere? Does anyone think its main job is to pump gas?

Similar "gas stations" could be built in likely areas for command & control, and rather than have strike force troops sitting around in the Middle East in barracks as targets, they only need be brought to the scene as needed.

Support aircraft would have new markings of the strike force as they are being utilized, regardless of what country they are from.

There are plenty of out-of-work Spetznaz, Seals, SAS, and others that would jump at the chance to get back in the game. Hell, if the pay is good enough, they might even get some defectors from Daeshe come over and cross the line.
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Hmmm. Sounds expensive.
 
Jack Hays said:
Hmmm. Sounds expensive.
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I could be, but the host nation that needs them would be the one that pays their bill, and at least this special strike force WANTS to get down and dirty with them. A group of hired professionals are normally much more effective than a bunch of conscripts, or members of a countries armed forces that do not really want to be there, or are being held back by a gutless politic.

All of these counties can and will help, but they also have plausible deniability. This group kicks the right butts, but are not under any one nations flag. All affected nations put in a little to the kiddie.

and when the bad guys are caught, there is no trial, only a stick with both ends sharpened. Film at 11.
 
RetiredNSmilin said:
I could be, but the host nation that needs them would be the one that pays their bill, and at least this special strike force WANTS to get down and dirty with them. A group of hired professionals are normally much more effective than a bunch of conscripts, or members of a countries armed forces that do not really want to be there, or are being held back by a gutless politic.

All of these counties can and will help, but they also have plausible deniability. This group kicks the right butts, but are not under any one nations flag. All affected nations put in a little to the kiddie.

and when the bad guys are caught, there is no trial, only a stick with both ends sharpened. Film at 11.
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You get full points for imagination, but I'm not holding my breath.
 
Jack Hays said:
You get full points for imagination, but I'm not holding my breath.
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Neither an I.

I am using the model of Mr. Upton.

He was a Yankee soldier who moved to Arkansas after the Civil War and bought a mill and plantation, got it all running again.

The Clan saw this as an affront for some reason. Nevermind he was emplying ex Rebs. Anyway they started attacking him.

He fought back and was even meaner and nastier than they were. He said the only way to beat them is to be even meaner than they are.

It came to a climax when his unit has attacked by 3x their number and he slaughtered them all.

That was pretty much the end of the Clan in his area.

My proposal is to make a unit with that philosophy in mind, but few have the moral courage to actually fight the devil in his own den.
but that is exactly what is needed.

These surgical airstrikes are but a mere annoyance to them. They need to be drug out of their beds and bayoneted.

But even saying that, is not PC and would get you labeled as an extremist, and they would be right. Only those extreme tactics will put an end to them.

I fought them in Yemen just after the unification, and we had them beat, but certain bleeding hearts put the leash on us and pulled us back.

Now look what that got us. I hope they are pleased with themselves.
 
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