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ISIS Has Brought the War to the U.S.

Beaudreaux said:
True. Yet, we should not just sit back and wag our finger at them when they do (not that you are suggesting such). I'm not nor have I ever advocated anything close. We screwed up by believing that the people of the Middle East could live peacefully in a free democracy. Maybe they can in a few generations, but not now, not given the prevailing culture of both Sunni and Shi'a sectarianism.
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i don't advocate finger wagging. i advocate changing the global energy model. if they are to have democracy, it will have to happen via internal demand, as have all other democracies.

Beaudreaux said:
Assad was the only thing holding that country together. Even Jordan, which has an outward appearance of western style freedoms, is a harsh and unforgiving autocracy. Assad just found himself surrounded by a bunch of well meaning rebels in one group of smaller groups, and a bunch of ill meaning terrorist groups trying to create a Caliphate that eventually gelled into ISIS, that were all spawned by the Arab Spring and took advantage of a vacuum being created by the pull out of US forces, since we were the only stabilizing force left in the region (sad thought isn't it).
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and an incorrect one. even during foreign military interventionism, there was plenty of sectarian conflict. the region was hardly stable.

Beaudreaux said:
That's the one I'm waiting on showing their hand. They already exist, IMO, they just haven't gone public yet. When they do, hell will paid by the entire world. Backed by the Saud family's Trillions of dollars, they will make bin Laden, al Baghdadi and the rest of the past and current players actually look like the JV team that Obama called them.
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and if they're defeated, another will come, and more demands will be made for boots on the ground / expanded perpetual war in the Middle East. perhaps we should consider another strategy.

Beaudreaux said:
We support the Saudis because it's still in our economic and national security interest to do so. When that stops, you can bet your bottom dollar... so will the "love." You have a great point here. That would definitely reduce their cash flow, but the emerging economies like India, will be buying fossil fuels for the next 100 to 150 years because of it's low cost relative to new technologies, so even if the US went cold turkey from oil, the terrorists in the Middle East would still have their income streams. What we CAN do, is become as energy independent as possible to at least reduce the amount of money we send to the Saudis and all the other ME countries to prevent financing our own deaths.
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oil is a fungible commodity, which means that oil producing nations are still going to benefit. a better idea is to innovate our way out from under it, and then export the technology.

Beaudreaux said:
That's what funds most of it. But with China, India, other parts of Eastern Asia that are emerging economies, African countries that are just now beginning to industrialize, we are not going to be able to cut off the flow of oil coming from the ME without creating famine, genocide, and unrelenting civil war across the third world of the likes we have never seen.
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i could say the same about potential wars for access to diminishing resources. once again, the better investment is to replace oil as a transportation fuel.
 
Jack Hays said:
What makes you think the Saudis aren't fighting ISIS already?
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since you're spending so much time advocating an expanded American role, they're apparently not doing enough. pulling out increases the immediacy of their problem, and thus, the motivation to contain it.
 
Jack Hays said:
It was never "our" war. It was brought to us.
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Oh yeah? Is that how we ended up invading countries elsewhere and making conditions file for more extreme terrorist groups?,
 
Helix said:
since you're spending so much time advocating an expanded American role, they're apparently not doing enough. pulling out increases the immediacy of their problem, and thus, the motivation to contain it.
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Our presence or absence changes nothing for them.
 
Helix said:
i don't advocate finger wagging. i advocate changing the global energy model. if they are to have democracy, it will have to happen via internal demand, as have all other democracies.
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Internal demand is what the Arab Spring was. That hasn't turned out very well at all. Even in Tunisia where it started, and them being the most successful to transition to democracy, they too are having civil sectarian conflict. It is the way of their culture.



Helix said:
and an incorrect one.
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Opinion, that could take years of typing between us and I am sure nothing would change for either of us.
Helix said:
even during foreign military interventionism, there was plenty of sectarian conflict. the region was hardly stable.
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It was exponentially more stable than it is now.



Helix said:
and if they're defeated, another will come, and more demands will be made for boots on the ground / expanded perpetual war in the Middle East. perhaps we should consider another strategy.
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What would that be?



Helix said:
oil is a fungible commodity, which means that oil producing nations are still going to benefit. a better idea is to innovate our way out from under it, and then export the technology.
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Who pays for the costs to produce, export and restructure entire industrial and infrastructure systems in other countries? What if they don't want it? What then?



Helix said:
i could say the same about potential wars for access to diminishing resources. once again, the better investment is to replace oil as a transportation fuel.
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Replace with what? What current resource (regardless of current technological capability) even has the potential to provide the same or even close to the same energy output for our transportation system as fossil fuels do now?
 
Helix said:
completely false, once again. you're on a roll.
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The Saudis' struggle predates our presence and will continue regardless of whether we remain. They have faced this enemy for a long time.
 
Beaudreaux said:
Internal demand is what the Arab Spring was. That hasn't turned out very well at all. Even in Tunisia where it started, and them being the most successful to transition to democracy, they too are having civil sectarian conflict. It is the way of their culture.
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then they need to figure that out.


Beaudreaux said:
Opinion, that could take years of typing between us and I am sure nothing would change for either of us. It was exponentially more stable than it is now.
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such an argument could be made for a dictatorship. i don't advocate either one. i advocate letting the region work out its own problems.

Beaudreaux said:
What would that be?
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see previous answer.

Beaudreaux said:
Who pays for the costs to produce, export and restructure entire industrial and infrastructure systems in other countries? What if they don't want it? What then?
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a moonshot to replace oil in a few decades via public / private partnerships.

Beaudreaux said:
Replace with what? What current resource (regardless of current technological capability) even has the potential to provide the same or even close to the same energy output for our transportation system as fossil fuels do now?
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the first step of the path forward looks like a massive upgrade of our electrical infrastructure, favoring renewables and nuclear, preferably thorium. this will be necessary to transition to electric-based transportation as an interim solution. if it means that the public sector has to the lead, then i'm fine with that. while we're doing that, we R&D the next model, with the solution being the primary goal rather than immediate profitability.
 
Jack Hays said:
The Saudis' struggle predates our presence and will continue regardless of whether we remain. They have faced this enemy for a long time.
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then perhaps they should devote more resources to building alliances within the region to solve the problem.
 
Helix said:
well, that's great news. now they can use that regional alliance to solve their own problems.
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They are already stretched by Yemen, and "their own problems" are ours too. They will remain ours regardless of whether we escalate, stand pat, or withdraw entirely. Why? Because we will continue to be attacked.
 
Jack Hays said:
They are already stretched by Yemen, and "their own problems" are ours too. They will remain ours regardless of whether we escalate, stand pat, or withdraw entirely. Why? Because we will continue to be attacked.
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and random assholes will continue to shoot people even if the US commits to all out war in Syria. Syria, unlike Iraq, will not be subject to US occupation as Iraq was due to a tense relationship with Russia. they like Assad, and are probably the only reason he's still in power. everything about this war screams stay the **** out of it.
 
Helix said:
and random assholes will continue to shoot people even if the US commits to all out war in Syria. Syria, unlike Iraq, will not be subject to US occupation as Iraq was due to a tense relationship with Russia. they like Assad, and are probably the only reason he's still in power. everything about this war screams stay the **** out of it.
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Assad is the root cause of the environment in which ISIS grew. ISIS is already at war with us and will remain at war with us until they are destroyed.
 
Ikari said:
But....but......but......we were fighting them there so we wouldn't need to do it here!!! What happened?

Oh yeah, our Infinity War backfired.
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Er....no.....America elected a moron commander in chief in 2008.
 
Jack Hays said:
Assad is the root cause of the environment in which ISIS grew. ISIS is already at war with us and will remain at war with us until they are destroyed.
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Assad is one part of it. they also used the instability in the region brought on by regime change in Iraq to gain a foothold. i agree that Assad is a complete asshole, and we should do absolutely nothing to help him, though. not helping Assad is one more reason not to participate in this war. let Russia get bogged down in it for decades if they want.
 
Heinrich said:
People are jumping to conclusions. Clicking a "Like" on twitter does not mean ISIS even knew the killers existed.
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The killers knew ISIS existed. That's the point.
 
Helix said:
Assad is one part of it. they also used the instability in the region brought on by regime change in Iraq to gain a foothold. i agree that Assad is a complete asshole, and we should do absolutely nothing to help him, though. not helping Assad is one more reason not to participate in this war. let Russia get bogged down in it for decades if they want.
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Our premature exit from Iraq was key to enabling ISIS.
 
Jack Hays said:
Our premature exit from Iraq was key to enabling ISIS.
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decades of interventionism in the Middle East was an even bigger factor.
 
Helix said:
decades of interventionism in the Middle East was an even bigger factor.
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That was a symptom, not a cause. External intervention had the same cause as Muslim rage: centuries of decay and impoverishment in the Islamic world.
 
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