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Drug War expansion: Kratom

Mr Person

Mr Person

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Well, I don't know as much about this as I do about the research surrounding marijuana, but from what I have gathered thus far, "Kratom" is a tree leaf that is ingested as a tea or otherwise. It has mild caffeine-like stimulant effects. It acts on a limited number of opiod receptors in the brain without producing the type of intensely pleasurable "high" associated with actual opium and opium dervatives ("opiates"), which act on a wider range of receptors and are powerfully addictive

It appears to induce partial relief of opiate withdrawal symtoms, but has mainly been used by millions as an alternative to percription opiates for pain. There are no known overdoses from it. The DEA has claimed that it



Apparently, the DEA has announced that it will single-handedly drop it into Class 1, along with heroin and - because they're such self-aggrandizing cynics - marijuana.


Some Say Kratom Is A Solution To Opioid Addiction. Not If Drug Warriors Ban It First. | Huffington Post

Feds Declare War On Herb Touted As A Solution To Opioid Addiction | Huffington Post

The DEA Didn't Talk To Kratom Users Before Pushing A Ban. Here's What They Would've Said. | Huffington Post

More collected:

Kratom


And of course, there's going to be plenty of more sources with information. It's just the first one that came to mind.




This seems absurd to me. First of all, there is generally a period of public comment for these things. One looks at the research, and the preliminary research indicates that this is a pretty much harmless substance with a low potential for abuse. One, hopefully, would do more research. One would weigh the costs and benefits of the policy.

If I were conspiracy minded, and I am rather paranoid when it comes to assessing a government agency's actions in light of its motive for self-preservation, I would conclude that this move is primarily made because the DEA senses that marijuana will eventually become legalized at the federal level. Or, at the very least, legalized in the vast majority of states and no longer a focus for them via command of their boss, the chief executive.

Yet marijuana is the most commonly used drug still illegal federally. Quite a lot of DEA funding is tied up in their mandate to fight marijuana importation, production, and interstate distribution. Take away their need to fight marijuana and maybe they don't need the same sized budget. Maybe agents get fired. Maybe they get less gear. Maybe, outside of the agency, the DOJ needs less U.S. attorneys & helpers. Etc.

It would be very easy to see this, and potential other sudden future moves, as no more than a cynical exercise in agency self-justification. An exercise that will hurt millions of people, at that, unless we assume without any proof that they're all dirty liars. (In those articles that have appeared since the DEA announced this, apparently back in the beginning of Sept or so, tons of people have been quoted as praising the fact that they could stop taking actual opioids for their chronic pain and take this instead.)

- People who take kratom instead of perscription opiods for pain will have to go back to the opioids, with disastrous consequences for their ability to function in life.

- Opioid addicts who transition to kratom to quell withdrawal will move back to opiates.

- Individuals who believe that "give me liberty or give me death" might just perhaps encompass the notion that one should be able to drink a coffee-like liquid will end up going through the criminal system.




In short, it is yet another illogical move to expand the drug war, made at the time when the American people have finally started to wake up and realize that not everything the government says is a "dangerous drug" actually is, and that there may be better ways of combating drugs than making everything other than our favorite drugs - booze/coffee/nicotine - illegal.
 
I'm just so sick of this.

The War on Drugs failed. Countries that try decriminalization/prevention of various drugs (Portugal, Amsterdam, etc) or even pure harm-reduction things like places that addicts can get a pure dose (Switzerland, etc) have shown better results.

You're not going to stop addicts. Even countries with the death penalty for this stuff have drug use. But we can start moving from criminalization to harm-reduction and common sense policies. And at a time when the government is pretending to be worried about an opioid epidemic, it fights substances that both addicts and medical users cite as alternatives that they PREFER to opiates: Marijuana, and now this Kratom stuff.




I mean, we're really so self-righteous and idiotic that we're going to say to those people: no, you're lying, we're going to MAKE you go back to those opiates. Then we'll arrest you years later, when the doctors stop prescribing them (because of our policies, also) and you find out that you are addicted and/or simply need the pain to stop, and get caught buying something illegal.
 
You are sick of the government regulating use of a substance that is similar to opiates, can cause liver damage, seizures and psychosis, and is addictive? A substance that has caused multiple deaths over the last 3 years, and use of is increasing? Really?
 
I agree - you're not going to stop addiction by driving up the price of black market drugs and providing the same or chemically similar drugs in pharmaceutical form.

We know that psychoactive drugs change the way we think and the way we perform. In sports medicine, we call certain drugs "performance enhancing." Anyone would want to get a corner on that lucrative market, but it's not just the market, because we know that drugs rock the foundation of society. What would the UK be without tea and coffee? Probably, they'd still be in the dark ages without the caffeine in those beverages. Without Opium, there would have not been the Opium wars fought in and around China. There would be no cartels and Afghanistan would grow wheat instead of poppies.

I'd like to think that legalization across the board would solve the problem in a matter of years (maybe three or four years), and I don't see much evidence to suggest otherwise. Drug opponents include pharmaceutical shills as well as chicken littles.

I would love to get my hands on a functional nootropic.
 
Redress said:
You are sick of the government regulating use of a substance that is similar to opiates, can cause liver damage, seizures and psychosis, and is addictive? A substance that has caused multiple deaths over the last 3 years, and use of is increasing? Really?
Click to expand...

What deaths? You mean when they were spiked with O-desmethyltramadol (A designer drug)? From where did you hear that it could cause any of those things? So you think alcohol should be illegal too (what you described sounds a hell of a lot like alcohol)? Kratom when used moderately has little to no adverse effects... when abused... the adverse effects aren't nearly as severe as any other opiate or any drug for that matter. Caffeine causes a worse withdrawl then Kratom. Also, caffeine can cause seizures and psychosis, liver damage, is addictive and causes multiple deaths every year.
 
Redress said:
You are sick of the government regulating use of a substance that is similar to opiates, can cause liver damage, seizures and psychosis, and is addictive? A substance that has caused multiple deaths over the last 3 years, and use of is increasing? Really?
Click to expand...

1. Are you taking that position based on the DEA release or actual studies you can link to? Because it actually hasn't been "linked to" deaths, unless you accept the government's definition of a link to deaths: the fact that metabolites are found in someone's bloodstream, regardless of what other metabolites are in it.

You can OD from meth, heroin, and tylenol, and they will separately cite it as "linked to" each, in separate publications, without mentioning the other things the death was "linked to" (on their standard), and will do so regardless of causation. Beware the propaganda arm of the War on Drugs. It's one of the few things our government does perfectly.

Where are the links to this "Causing" "multiple deaths" over the years?

Where are the comparisons between the number of deaths it has allegedly caused to deaths caused by other things, like acetomenophan overdoses?

I'm very wary about the government making anything newly illegal given its track record of utter bull**** in so many fronts on this "War on Drugs" we have so unsuccessfully fought. I know I only linked a few articles and not studies (though I think some of my articles link to studies), but then, I'm not arguing in favor of banning yet another thing millions ingest without some kind of proof that it's actually worth yet another addition to our failed "war".

Where are the horror stories of Kratom addiction? Where are the people robbing stores, mugging people? Why am I suddenly only hearing about how this needs to be put in the most dangerous class of drugs NOW, 2016, despite it being consumed for hundreds if not thousands of years by people? How is it that a great killer could always exist but only now, we notice it? Sounds like BS to me.





2. Are you really taking that position without responding to the points I made in the alternative, that is, points I made based on the assumption that this stuff is harmful in the same way that opiates are?



The worst I've seen thus far is that (a) if you ingest over one ounce (27.8 grams minimum) per day for six months, you have roughly a 20% chance of showing mild addiction symptoms (coffee has a higher rate) and a 25% chance of showing moderate symptoms, however those symptoms are not in the least bit like those of actual opiate withdrawal (vomiting, extreme pain, defecating pants, hallucinations, etc, possibly including death), (b) it can be, like anything enjoyable including video games, "psychologically addictive".

Again, sorry for not having the link ready but I didn't think I'd actually end up arguing it. (I actually first researched this after an NYT scare article about, allegedly, how the fact that some people stopped using heroin by taking this stuff, but then, a subset of them felt addicted to it. Then stopped. With less consequences. I thought at the time "Oh, great news. Another opiate alternative that cuts down on the actual really bad stuff. Maybe if my favorite singer ever knew about it, he might just not have killed himself so damn young.").

But it isn't an opiate and doesn't have the physically addictive characteristics of opiates, which appear to be particularly nasty.




Basically, I predict the only effect of this action will be yet another rise in opiates, this time illegal opiates. Because they aren't regulated, it'll generally be a combo of heroin, fentanyl, with possibly oxymorphone or suboxone, meaning more fatalities, meaning more enforcement, meaning more laws that exacerbate the problem.
 
Last edited:
Mr Person said:
Well, I don't know as much about this as I do about the research surrounding marijuana, but from what I have gathered thus far, "Kratom" is a tree leaf that is ingested as a tea or otherwise. It has mild caffeine-like stimulant effects. It acts on a limited number of opiod receptors in the brain without producing the type of intensely pleasurable "high" associated with actual opium and opium dervatives ("opiates"), which act on a wider range of receptors and are powerfully addictive

It appears to induce partial relief of opiate withdrawal symtoms, but has mainly been used by millions as an alternative to percription opiates for pain. There are no known overdoses from it. The DEA has claimed that it



Apparently, the DEA has announced that it will single-handedly drop it into Class 1, along with heroin and - because they're such self-aggrandizing cynics - marijuana.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the DEA is total bull****.
 
From what I gather, further information:

1. A bipartisan group of house reps and senators told them to slow the **** down.

2. The DEA actually invoked emergency scheduling powers that were granted to deal with synthetics. In layman's terms, these are basically chemically altered versions of existing drugs that are illegal, which vary in degree of similarity between effect and health risk. Because of that, it is in some ways more dangerous to take a synthetic about which there aren't even any anecdotal accounts. Legislatures are slow, so, the DEA was given power to temporarily schedule a newly discovered synthetic drug without having determined (1) risk of harm, (2) medical benefit.

3. In light of bipartisan scolding and voter response, they backed down and will put it through the usual notice and comment period.

4. Apparently, while it activates some opiod receptors, it blocks others. One of which in particular is related to the withdrawal symptoms from opiates, which this doesn't seem to have (some users report mild/moderate physical withdrawal after sustained use of large amounts, but many of those tend to be people who are trying to quite stuff like heroin and are therefore are addiction-inclined in both the physical and psychological sense).

But again, this just drives me nuts. This kind of thing is that after every political spectrum test I take, I end up half way to "libertarian". The War on Drugs is bad enough, but further, this Kratom stuff is apparently only "linked to" 15 deaths in which individuals were on multiple other substances which carry risks in various respects. (I object to criminalization of those too, but not nearly as strongly as something like this). I believe that is the same or very close to the number of deaths that were "linked too" high-caffeine energy drinks, and years ago, high-ephedrine supplements taken by people before exercise.

15 deaths out of 320,000,000 people?

THAT is worth Schedule I penalties? THAT is worth federal prison? I'm fairly certain that forcing a turd out before its time has lead to more strokes and heart attacks than this has "contributed to" any deaths.
 
The more I research the more I'm pissed. Other various things. #5 should be #1. I'll make it big and bold to show how important it is.


5. The drug in the brand "Tylenol" causes:

- 100,000 overdoses/year
- 56,000 Emergency room visits/year
- 2,600 hospitalizations/year
- 458 deaths/year due to acute liver failure.







Got that? Tylenol. A weak over the counter medication for fevers and low-grade pain. That caused 30500% more deaths in one year, than Kratom is "linked to" ever.

articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/03/26/acetaminophen-overdose.aspx

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15239078



Who cares why people are using it, if it is way safer than ****ing Tylenol? If we don't believe in having an individual right to ingest what one will as long as that act isn't directly harming someone else, then at least, why can't we just end the inquiry there?

It's way safer than Tylenol. Full stop. But these ***holes want to make it a class 1 drug, cause countless socio-economic harm, primarily against those using it as an alternative to opiod medication for chronic pain, most likely because they need something to "fight" to justify their budget once the feds finally and reluctantly legalize marijuana.

Idiocy.


Maybe I should conduct a personal test and report back, since it does appear to be legal for a while.
 
Oh, and ....


6. There are so many "legal supplements" that are not regulated either, which have no proven benefit, a few of which have psychological effects*, whose "linked to" status has not been investigated, and which we just plain don't talk about.

So why do we take one seemingly extremely safe substance and put it in Schedule I, but ignore the potential harm from however many different other substances being ingested?



7. We claim to be worried about an opiod epidemic. How stupid is it to ignore people who say they dropped opiates BECAUSE they started taking this (rather than methadone)?
 
Redress said:
You are sick of the government regulating use of a substance that is similar to opiates, can cause liver damage, seizures and psychosis, and is addictive? A substance that has caused multiple deaths over the last 3 years, and use of is increasing? Really?
Click to expand...

good point, why on earth is alcohol even legal?
 
Mr Person said:
Well, I don't know as much about this as I do about the research surrounding marijuana, but from what I have gathered thus far, "Kratom" is a tree leaf that is ingested as a tea or otherwise. It has mild caffeine-like stimulant effects. It acts on a limited number of opiod receptors in the brain without producing the type of intensely pleasurable "high" associated with actual opium and opium dervatives ("opiates"), which act on a wider range of receptors and are powerfully addictive

It appears to induce partial relief of opiate withdrawal symtoms, but has mainly been used by millions as an alternative to percription opiates for pain. There are no known overdoses from it. The DEA has claimed that it



Apparently, the DEA has announced that it will single-handedly drop it into Class 1, along with heroin and - because they're such self-aggrandizing cynics - marijuana.


Some Say Kratom Is A Solution To Opioid Addiction. Not If Drug Warriors Ban It First. | Huffington Post

Feds Declare War On Herb Touted As A Solution To Opioid Addiction | Huffington Post

The DEA Didn't Talk To Kratom Users Before Pushing A Ban. Here's What They Would've Said. | Huffington Post

More collected:

Kratom


And of course, there's going to be plenty of more sources with information. It's just the first one that came to mind.




This seems absurd to me. First of all, there is generally a period of public comment for these things. One looks at the research, and the preliminary research indicates that this is a pretty much harmless substance with a low potential for abuse. One, hopefully, would do more research. One would weigh the costs and benefits of the policy.

If I were conspiracy minded, and I am rather paranoid when it comes to assessing a government agency's actions in light of its motive for self-preservation, I would conclude that this move is primarily made because the DEA senses that marijuana will eventually become legalized at the federal level. Or, at the very least, legalized in the vast majority of states and no longer a focus for them via command of their boss, the chief executive.

Yet marijuana is the most commonly used drug still illegal federally. Quite a lot of DEA funding is tied up in their mandate to fight marijuana importation, production, and interstate distribution. Take away their need to fight marijuana and maybe they don't need the same sized budget. Maybe agents get fired. Maybe they get less gear. Maybe, outside of the agency, the DOJ needs less U.S. attorneys & helpers. Etc.

It would be very easy to see this, and potential other sudden future moves, as no more than a cynical exercise in agency self-justification. An exercise that will hurt millions of people, at that, unless we assume without any proof that they're all dirty liars. (In those articles that have appeared since the DEA announced this, apparently back in the beginning of Sept or so, tons of people have been quoted as praising the fact that they could stop taking actual opioids for their chronic pain and take this instead.)

- People who take kratom instead of perscription opiods for pain will have to go back to the opioids, with disastrous consequences for their ability to function in life.

- Opioid addicts who transition to kratom to quell withdrawal will move back to opiates.

- Individuals who believe that "give me liberty or give me death" might just perhaps encompass the notion that one should be able to drink a coffee-like liquid will end up going through the criminal system.




In short, it is yet another illogical move to expand the drug war, made at the time when the American people have finally started to wake up and realize that not everything the government says is a "dangerous drug" actually is, and that there may be better ways of combating drugs than making everything other than our favorite drugs - booze/coffee/nicotine - illegal.
Click to expand...

Great post. I tried some kratom, but not for pain. It was to help relax.
For me, the discussion of prohibition has little do with how harmful the drug is since prohibition doesn't decrease usage and can even increase it. The question is about who we want to control it; Drug Cartels and street gangs or business owners?
 
Mr Person said:
Oh, and ....


6. There are so many "legal supplements" that are not regulated either, which have no proven benefit, a few of which have psychological effects*, whose "linked to" status has not been investigated, and which we just plain don't talk about.

So why do we take one seemingly extremely safe substance and put it in Schedule I, but ignore the potential harm from however many different other substances being ingested?



7. We claim to be worried about an opiod epidemic. How stupid is it to ignore people who say they dropped opiates BECAUSE they started taking this (rather than methadone)?
Click to expand...

There is your answer.
 
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