US Drug policy is the cause of Mexican immigration

Crovax said:

Thats not why prohibition was repealed and an increase in violent crime during prohibition is a myth




The (Not So) Roaring ’20s - NYTimes.com

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Nonsense. No matter what Emily Owens and NYT claim, 20 years ago or more I read several articles in several different places, from newspapers in Detroit, Milwaukee, Chicago and other big cities. Articles and news stories written at the time.

Going from memory here, in the crime categories of breaking and entering, burglary and a few other common categories, the incidence of those crimes before Volstead, after Volstead, and after the repeal of Volstead were compared.

Simply put, those crime numbers essentially doubled after Volstead was implemented, and then after repeal were halved.

Don't believe everything you read in NYT or any other mainstream media these days--they support the status quo, nothing more. There is nothing the government likes more than the drug prohibition. Without it, DEA would have no job, and the federal prisons would be only half full.

The drug prohibition causes all manner of social pathologies, as LEAP points out. Quite likely it is a major factor in our immigration brouhaha.

Absentglare said:

Then you're only going by the title of the thread and not the OP, itself ?

Your blanket dismissal went far beyond attempting to discredit the connection to immigration.

Can you please tone it down and help me understand what your thought process is ? I am sincerely curious.

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No, I'm not going just by the title. I'm going by the content of the OP. That should be rather obvious.

Rather than asking me to tone it down, why don't you back off and consider the entertaining claim in the OP?


US Drug policy is the only reason the black market that funds the Mexican drug war exists: The only reason? Really? I'd like to see proof of that claim.

It has claimed hundreds of thousands of lives, and forced MILLIONS to flee to the USA? Who's killing who? So the millions of illegal aliens coming from Mexico aren't coming here for jobs, like they have been doing for decades, they are fleeing war zones of cartels in certain cities, and into war zones along the border, so they can escape the war zones? That's some killer bud to come up with that connection.

Bottom line, as I've written now a few times, the argument the OP is making ("Conservatives who want to halt migration from Mexico...") is make it legal to get loaded in the US, so the illegal aliens will stop coming.

Dang, nothing but Chronic could induce that hallucination.

ocean515 said:

No, I'm not going just by the title. I'm going by the content of the OP. That should be rather obvious.

Rather than asking me to tone it down, why don't you back off and consider the entertaining claim in the OP?

US drug policy is the only reason the black market that funds the Mexican drug war exists. It has claimed hundreds of thousands of lives and forced millions of mMexicans to flee to the USA. Conservatives who want to halt migration from Mexico should legalize drugs, destroying the Mexican drug economy, end ending a civil war that is killing tens of thousands annually, and pushing fleeing refugees into the USA.​

US Drug policy is the only reason the black market that funds the Mexican drug war exists: The only reason? Really? I'd like to see proof of that claim.

It has claimed hundreds of thousands of lives, and forced MILLIONS to flee to the USA? Who's killing who? So the millions of illegal aliens coming from Mexico aren't coming here for jobs, like they have been doing for decades, they are fleeing war zones of cartels in certain cities, and into war zones along the border, so they can escape the war zones? That's some killer bud to come up with that connection.

Bottom line, as I've written now a few times, the argument the OP is making ("Conservatives who want to halt migration from Mexico...") is make it legal to get loaded in the US, so the illegal aliens will stop coming.

Dang, nothing but Chronic could induce that hallucination.

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I'll agree there are undemonstrated claims, but you similarly dismiss them without demonstration.

Surely, the war on drugs in this country impacts our neighbors.

Absentglare said:

I'll agree there are undemonstrated claims, but you similarly dismiss them without demonstration.

Surely, the war on drugs in this country impacts our neighbors.

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Drugs impact our Neighbors. Alcohol impacts our neighbors. Lots of things impact our neighbors. Will legalization end the cartels need to undercut the legal markets?

For example, even in Colorado, illegal pot growing is taking place. It's really naïve to think that will stop in Mexico if drugs are made legal here. In fact, if drugs become a tax source, as the movement appears to be headed, the cartels will become even more emboldened.

32 busted in big Colorado illegal marijuana cultivation crackdown - Denver Business Journal

So, as you can see, the OP is a bit of recreational farce I have attributed to good bud. I could be wrong there, as I have no way of knowing. But really, given the argument, some tokin' had to have been involved.

JensB said:

US drug policy is the only reason the black market that funds the Mexican drug war exists. It has claimed hundreds of thousands of lives and forced millions of mMexicans to flee to the USA. Conservatives who want to halt migration from Mexico should legalize drugs, destroying the Mexican drug economy, end ending a civil war that is killing tens of thousands annually, and pushing fleeing refugees into the USA.

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They come here because it is the path of least Resistance.

It is easier to to get a hand out from the American people, than to fight, and clean up their own countries.

ocean515 said:

Drugs impact our Neighbors. Alcohol impacts our neighbors. Lots of things impact our neighbors. Will legalization end the cartels need to undercut the legal markets?

For example, even in Colorado, illegal pot growing is taking place. It's really naïve to think that will stop in Mexico if drugs are made legal here. In fact, if drugs become a tax source, as the movement appears to be headed, the cartels will become even more emboldened.

32 busted in big Colorado illegal marijuana cultivation crackdown - Denver Business Journal

So, as you can see, the OP is a bit of recreational farce I have attributed to good bud. I could be wrong there, as I have no way of knowing. But really, given the argument, some tokin' had to have been involved.

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Now you're just denying basic facts about reality.

The drug cartels exact their funding from the artificial scarcity of our own drug laws.

Legalizing drugs cuts their profits, or do you not realize that prohibition gave birth to organized crime and legalization dealt a swift blow to it ?

ocean515 said:

Drugs impact our Neighbors. Alcohol impacts our neighbors. Lots of things impact our neighbors. Will legalization end the cartels need to undercut the legal markets?

For example, even in Colorado, illegal pot growing is taking place. It's really naïve to think that will stop in Mexico if drugs are made legal here. In fact, if drugs become a tax source, as the movement appears to be headed, the cartels will become even more emboldened.

32 busted in big Colorado illegal marijuana cultivation crackdown - Denver Business Journal

So, as you can see, the OP is a bit of recreational farce I have attributed to good bud. I could be wrong there, as I have no way of knowing. But really, given the argument, some tokin' had to have been involved.

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The Denver Business Journal won't let you read it unless you subscribe, so the details are missing. No surprise that SOMEBODY would break the law, but generally speaking the legalization scheme in Colorado has been a good thing. It has brought taxes, and FOR THE MOST PART has eliminated the black market problems. No scheme is perfect.

Absentglare said:

Now you're just denying basic facts about reality.

The drug cartels exact their funding from the artificial scarcity of our own drug laws.

Legalizing drugs cuts their profits, or do you not realize that prohibition gave birth to organized crime and legalization dealt a swift blow to it ?

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The link in my post pretty much destroys your argument.

Anything else?

Thoreau72 said:

The Denver Business Journal won't let you read it unless you subscribe, so the details are missing. No surprise that SOMEBODY would break the law, but generally speaking the legalization scheme in Colorado has been a good thing. It has brought taxes, and FOR THE MOST PART has eliminated the black market problems. No scheme is perfect.

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Here's the detail from the article. I didn't have a problem getting it but I understand some sites work that way.


I think it is a bit naïve to think these cartels are going to go away, especially if pot becomes a taxable commodity. These evil bastards have too much invested, and too much at stake to just walk away, especially if they can provide untaxed goods at below market rates.

ocean515 said:

Here's the detail from the article. I didn't have a problem getting it but I understand some sites work that way.

Thirty-two people have been arrested in the past six weeks by federal and state authorities for illegal marijuana growing operations across the state.

The U.S. Attorney's Office said some of the illegal operations were in residences and outbuildings, while others were located on federal land. Most of those arrested weren't from Colorado and some were in the U.S. illegally, and some "appear to be working for drug trafficking organizations," according to the government.

The biggest bust in terms of arrests was the Sept. 1 arrest of 20 people in Cotopaxi and Westcliffe in Freemont and Custer County, where more than 1,000 marijuana plants, 50 pounds of dried marijuana, 28 firearms, and $25,000 in cash was found.

“Illegal activity of this kind underscores the need for strong, joint law enforcement efforts by federal and state authorities to identify, cut off and destroy the efforts of drug trafficking organizations to use Colorado as a ‘source state’ for export of illegal marijuana around the country," U.S. Attorney John Walsh said in a statement.

The Denver Post reported that some of the illegal grow operations found in Colorado may have moved from California, which is suffering a severe drought

​

I think it is a bit naïve to think these cartels are going to go away, especially if pot becomes a taxable commodity. These evil bastards have too much invested, and too much at stake to just walk away, especially if they can provide untaxed goods at below market rates.

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No doubt the cartels are not going anywhere BECAUSE the prohibition still stands, the black market still thrives. If not so much in Colorado, then certainly in the other states. The black market and its social pathologies were brought into existence by way of legislation, and that is the only way it will be ended.

The Colorado and Washington schemes are a good thing, but until the nationwide prohibition is ended, any positive changes will be very localized.

I wonder if those caught were operating on the assumption that because it was legal in Colorado there would be little to no enforcement?

Thoreau72 said:

No doubt the cartels are not going anywhere BECAUSE the prohibition still stands, the black market still thrives. If not so much in Colorado, then certainly in the other states. The black market and its social pathologies were brought into existence by way of legislation, and that is the only way it will be ended.

The Colorado and Washington schemes are a good thing, but until the nationwide prohibition is ended, any positive changes will be very localized.

I wonder if those caught were operating on the assumption that because it was legal in Colorado there would be little to no enforcement?

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The Cartels will remain when drugs are legalized as well. In fact, its possible they will become more powerful as drug sales are looked upon as a revenue source for State and Local governments. The Black Market exists in cigarettes in New York City after they imposed the highest taxes in the country on them.

Remember, even moonshine is something that remains, as distillers try to avoid the liquor taxes the government imposes.

The OP is laughable entertainment, but the belief the cartels are going to go away as a result of making drugs legal has no precedent in history. It's never happened in alcohol, or cigarettes, and it most certainly won't happen should all drugs become legal.

As to the people who got caught in Colorado, I would guess they thought they wouldn't be noticed in Colorado, given their change in laws.

ocean515 said:

The link in my post pretty much destroys your argument.

Anything else?

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No, it doesn't.

Absentglare said:

No, it doesn't.

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It's perfectly fine with me if you want to believe that.

ocean515 said:

The Cartels will remain when drugs are legalized as well. In fact, its possible they will become more powerful as drug sales are looked upon as a revenue source for State and Local governments. The Black Market exists in cigarettes in New York City after they imposed the highest taxes in the country on them.

Remember, even moonshine is something that remains, as distillers try to avoid the liquor taxes the government imposes.

The OP is laughable entertainment, but the belief the cartels are going to go away as a result of making drugs legal has no precedent in history. It's never happened in alcohol, or cigarettes, and it most certainly won't happen should all drugs become legal.

As to the people who got caught in Colorado, I would guess they thought they wouldn't be noticed in Colorado, given their change in laws.

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Absent the prohibition, today's cartels would be in the same position organized crime was in the US in 1934. Yes, they still existed I suppose, but their main source of income was gone. To me, it's not their existence so much as it is their fabulous wealth and influence.

Yes, they might still exist, but they would be reduced to playing the remaining black markets--prostitution, numbers gambling, and whatever else might exist. The source of their wealth and power would be gone, and the largest source of the violence they practice would be gone, just as that happened in the US after the Volstead Act was repealed.

You are correct that small black markets exist in cigarettes today, but that is brought on by greedy and excessive taxes, caused by legislation that could easily be corrected.

For black market dynamics, you might consider reading "The Economics of Prohibition" by Mark Thornton. Published by University of Utah Press in 1991. Things are quite predictable, and history is most useful in analysis.

Thoreau72 said:

Absent the prohibition, today's cartels would be in the same position organized crime was in the US in 1934. Yes, they still existed I suppose, but their main source of income was gone. To me, it's not their existence so much as it is their fabulous wealth and influence.

Yes, they might still exist, but they would be reduced to playing the remaining black markets--prostitution, numbers gambling, and whatever else might exist. The source of their wealth and power would be gone, and the largest source of the violence they practice would be gone, just as that happened in the US after the Volstead Act was repealed.

You are correct that small black markets exist in cigarettes today, but that is brought on by greedy and excessive taxes, caused by legislation that could easily be corrected.

For black market dynamics, you might consider reading "The Economics of Prohibition" by Mark Thornton. Published by University of Utah Press in 1991. Things are quite predictable, and history is most useful in analysis.

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If legalized drugs become a source of tax revenue, the cartels will become more notorious than ever. Their very livelihood will depend on it. That's what appears to have happened in Colorado. The war will just change complexion.

On the other hand, if consumers shun the black market and stick only to legitimate "retail" suppliers, the Cartels would most certainly suffer. The problem is, many drug users suffer from income deficiencies, so cost will always be a factor. That plays right into the hands of the more historically traditional means of distribution feed by the cartels.

Crovax said:

The cartels deal in more than just marijuana and there is no way the hard drugs are going to be legalized and morally it is repugnant to suggest they should be.

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Very true, the cartels will not go away when marijuana prohibition on the federal level goes away. What it will allow is all the cash and resources used to fight weed prohibition, funneled into combating hard drugs, the stuff which is highly addictive, destroys lives. As a country we should not give up on the war on drugs, but we need to pick our battles. The battle against marijuana is foolish, the majority of Americans want an end to prohibition, and for states to regulate.

ocean515 said:

If legalized drugs become a source of tax revenue, the cartels will become more notorious than ever. Their very livelihood will depend on it. That's what appears to have happened in Colorado. The war will just change complexion.

On the other hand, if consumers shun the black market and stick only to legitimate "retail" suppliers, the Cartels would most certainly suffer. The problem is, many drug users suffer from income deficiencies, so cost will always be a factor. That plays right into the hands of the more historically traditional means of distribution feed by the cartels.

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Rather a nonsensical bit of psychobabble sir. Historically traditional means of distribution feed by the cartels?

You do realize, I hope, that before the prohibition there was no such thing as a "drug cartel"? That before the drug prohibition, there were no youngsters peddling drugs on the street corners?

Thoreau72 said:

Rather a nonsensical bit of psychobabble sir. Historically traditional means of distribution feed by the cartels?

You do realize, I hope, that before the prohibition there was no such thing as a "drug cartel"? That before the drug prohibition, there were no youngsters peddling drugs on the street corners?

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It's unnecessary to inject divisive accusations in what I have attempted to keep at a respectful level of dialog. If that is where you plan to go, I have no interest in further exchange. Assuming that was just a slip of the "tongue", I'll move on.

Addiction will likely increase with the ease of acquisition. It would be naïve to believe otherwise. Most addicts find it difficult to earn enough income to support their habit. This means cost will remain an issue. If taxes are added to the cost of drugs an opportunity exists for any source that can undercut the legal going rate. This is happening with cigarettes in Manhattan. It makes no sense to think it wouldn't happen with drugs. The cartels would be interested in exploiting this demand by supplying untaxed, illegal drugs developed/grown/processed by their operations.

I think you need to inform/refresh yourself with the knowledge that drugs have been a part of the American fabric since the late 1800's. Opium was a scourge of the Far East. It's use came to the US via San Francisco in the 1850's. Heroin use in various subcultures throughout the country in the 1950's was a serious problem. Do you recall the "French Connection"? There were indeed people selling drugs on the street corners long before the war on drugs started in the 1980's, and long before the cartels became the evil empires they have become.

The Buyers - A Social History Of America's Most Popular Drugs | Drug Wars | FRONTLINE | PBS

ocean515 said:

It's unnecessary to inject divisive accusations in what I have attempted to keep at a respectful level of dialog. If that is where you plan to go, I have no interest in further exchange. Assuming that was just a slip of the "tongue", I'll move on.

Addiction will likely increase with the ease of acquisition. It would be naïve to believe otherwise. Most addicts find it difficult to earn enough income to support their habit. This means cost will remain an issue. If taxes are added to the cost of drugs an opportunity exists for any source that can undercut the legal going rate. This is happening with cigarettes in Manhattan. It makes no sense to think it wouldn't happen with drugs. The cartels would be interested in exploiting this demand by supplying untaxed, illegal drugs developed/grown/processed by their operations.

I think you need to inform/refresh yourself with the knowledge that drugs have been a part of the American fabric since the late 1800's. Opium was a scourge of the Far East. It's use came to the US via San Francisco in the 1850's. Heroin use in various subcultures throughout the country in the 1950's was a serious problem. Do you recall the "French Connection"? There were indeed people selling drugs on the street corners long before the war on drugs started in the 1980's, and long before the cartels became the evil empires they have become.

The Buyers - A Social History Of America's Most Popular Drugs | Drug Wars | FRONTLINE | PBS

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No disrespect intended sir.

Since about 1981, I have been informed on the drug prohibition issue by several economists, some Nobel economists, including Milton Friedman, Gary Becker, Mark Thornton who I have already mentioned.

Perhaps you and I disagree somehow because you look at it from an addiction perspective, whilst I view it from an economic and legal perspective.

All forms of human behavior have been the subject of government intervention, from drug use to prostitution, and never once has the intended purpose of well-meaning legislation been achieved. Not with prostitution, and not with addiction. As I'm sure you already know, the impetus for the Harrison Act began with religious missionaries who were upset because Chinese people were being turned into addicts. I am not for addiction, but I've been around long enough to know that humans are addicted to many substances, and the only ones that really cause problems are those that the government has declared "illegal", maybe 10 different substances out of hundreds of substances used by humans.

So I respect your concerns, and sympathize with them. I was in Vietnam when so many guys were smoking opium and heroin. LICIT & ILLICIT DRUGS was written in response to that bad situation, by Gary Brecher and Consumers Union.

The point is that there is no legal basis for any prohibition, and there is no example of any prohibition having contributed anything positive to society, but the record is very clear that government agencies including the prisons, profit mightily from those well-intentioned humans trying to stop humans from doing stupid and harmful things to themselves. Indeed, the budget for the DEA grows yearly, though about the same number of people are addicted to drugs today as were in 1914.

No disrespect sir, but I was not born yesterday, and I've studied the US Constitution and other sources regarding the legality of the prohibition. It is both illegitimate and gravely harmful to this country. Though the many enforcement bureaucracies thrive, society pays a horrible price for the prohibition.

Thoreau72 said:

No disrespect intended sir.

Since about 1981, I have been informed on the drug prohibition issue by several economists, some Nobel economists, including Milton Friedman, Gary Becker, Mark Thornton who I have already mentioned.

Perhaps you and I disagree somehow because you look at it from an addiction perspective, whilst I view it from an economic and legal perspective.

All forms of human behavior have been the subject of government intervention, from drug use to prostitution, and never once has the intended purpose of well-meaning legislation been achieved. Not with prostitution, and not with addiction. As I'm sure you already know, the impetus for the Harrison Act began with religious missionaries who were upset because Chinese people were being turned into addicts. I am not for addiction, but I've been around long enough to know that humans are addicted to many substances, and the only ones that really cause problems are those that the government has declared "illegal", maybe 10 different substances out of hundreds of substances used by humans.

So I respect your concerns, and sympathize with them. I was in Vietnam when so many guys were smoking opium and heroin. LICIT & ILLICIT DRUGS was written in response to that bad situation, by Gary Brecher and Consumers Union.

The point is that there is no legal basis for any prohibition, and there is no example of any prohibition having contributed anything positive to society, but the record is very clear that government agencies including the prisons, profit mightily from those well-intentioned humans trying to stop humans from doing stupid and harmful things to themselves.

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I actually have no general problem with the legalization of drugs. I have experience with the result of abuse of drugs, having lost friends and family to them. I can't divorce myself, nor should anyone else, from that potentially unintended consequence.

What I take exception to is the effort to try to push forward the legalization effort by claiming it would solve the illegal immigration problem. That is claim is certainly novel, as I have pointed out a number of times.

Thoreau72 said:

Rather a nonsensical bit of psychobabble sir. Historically traditional means of distribution feed by the cartels?

You do realize, I hope, that before the prohibition there was no such thing as a "drug cartel"? That before the drug prohibition, there were no youngsters peddling drugs on the street corners?

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I for one would like to see scholarly resources for the authors claims that the cartels in CO are now more notorious than ever. This was a theory thrown out there by the anti marijuana folks in CO. Sure there are lots of reports in 2014 that this may happen in the State (before CO legalized), but it was a weak argument to begin with, as our most arguments against ending the prohibition. Last I heard crime has decreased in CO since marijuana was regulated to adults.

ocean515 said:

Drugs impact our Neighbors. Alcohol impacts our neighbors. Lots of things impact our neighbors. Will legalization end the cartels need to undercut the legal markets?

For example, even in Colorado, illegal pot growing is taking place. It's really naïve to think that will stop in Mexico if drugs are made legal here. In fact, if drugs become a tax source, as the movement appears to be headed, the cartels will become even more emboldened.

32 busted in big Colorado illegal marijuana cultivation crackdown - Denver Business Journal

So, as you can see, the OP is a bit of recreational farce I have attributed to good bud. I could be wrong there, as I have no way of knowing. But really, given the argument, some tokin' had to have been involved.

Click to expand...

Yup

As the price and supply equilibrium of marijuana sorts its self out the price will drop, it already has, and not just in CO, but nationally. The States are realizing that too put a high tax on marijuana, is to keep the illegal business going. I know from my own personal experiences that the price for illegal marijuana has dropped by 1/3 in a year!! And I live in Texas folks, the legalization of weed will drive the cartels out of the cannabis industry.

Remember folks, this is an experiment in CO, so far things look good, lets hope other States follow in Nov.

ocean515 said:

Drugs impact our Neighbors. Alcohol impacts our neighbors. Lots of things impact our neighbors. Will legalization end the cartels need to undercut the legal markets?

For example, even in Colorado, illegal pot growing is taking place. It's really naïve to think that will stop in Mexico if drugs are made legal here. In fact, if drugs become a tax source, as the movement appears to be headed, the cartels will become even more emboldened.

32 busted in big Colorado illegal marijuana cultivation crackdown - Denver Business Journal

So, as you can see, the OP is a bit of recreational farce I have attributed to good bud. I could be wrong there, as I have no way of knowing. But really, given the argument, some tokin' had to have been involved.

Click to expand...

You may want to read this, explains how the cartels are actually being put out of business in CO, not by the police, or the DEA, but by regulating the drug.

http://www.latinpost.com/articles/1...ion-colorado-killing-mexican-drug-cartels.htm

ocean515 said:

I actually have no general problem with the legalization of drugs. I have experience with the result of abuse of drugs, having lost friends and family to them. I can't divorce myself, nor should anyone else, from that potentially unintended consequence.

What I take exception to is the effort to try to push forward the legalization effort by claiming it would solve the illegal immigration problem. That is claim is certainly novel, as I have pointed out a number of times.

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I certainly agree with that point--legalization would have little effect on the immigration issue. It may have some effect, but it would likely be insignificant.

Yes, there are few americans today who are NOT impacted by drug use and drug policy. We all have our horror stories to tell about friends and family using drugs.

But the simple truth is that drug use itself is far less harmful than the legal ramifications caused by the criminalization of only certain drugs. LEAP is against prohibition for most valid reasons--it harms society, both users and non-users.

yankintx said:

Yup

As the price and supply equilibrium of marijuana sorts its self out the price will drop, it already has, and not just in CO, but nationally. The States are realizing that too put a high tax on marijuana, is to keep the illegal business going. I know from my own personal experiences that the price for illegal marijuana has dropped by 1/3 in a year!! And I live in Texas folks, the legalization of weed will drive the cartels out of the cannabis industry.

Remember folks, this is an experiment in CO, so far things look good, lets hope other States follow in Nov.

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Perhaps you missed this part of the article you provided a link to:



The Cartels have too much invested, and too much money at stake to simply fold up shop and move on. I don't think we've seen anything close to what is likely going to happen.

Regardless, the same point remains, legalizing drugs is not going to stop illegal aliens from trying to come to the US. That is dope smoking craziness.