State issued ID for alcohol and firearms?

Thoughts on an ID endorsement which shows an individual is not an alcoholic, mental health/suicide risk or otherwise violent offender? ID would be shown prior to purchase of alcohol, firearms or ammunition. The seller or private provider (party host, brother in law, etc.) Could call number to verify id is still current prior to serving or selling these items. Substantially increase penalties for straw purchases or anyone providing or serving alcohol, firearms or ammunition to anyone not permitted. Also substantially increase end user penalties for attempting to circumvent the process.

Seems this idea could go a long way to reducing rape, child/spousal abuse, suicide, homicide, violent crime, health care costs and any number of alcohol related issues. Reducing the alcohol component by itself would greatly reduce firearms injuries and deaths. The firearms endorsement would help solve the issue of mentally unstable people having access to firearms and easily allow universal background checks.

In regards to alcohol: The majority of alcoholics aren't violent, criminals, or otherwise harmful to society. Cutting them off from something they are physiologically dependent on will likely change that. Even worse, many stage 3 alcoholics will literally die from withdrawal if they stop drinking.

In other words, your idea will bring back many of the problems from the prohibition era, and it'll kill some old men off.

In regards to guns: Reducing guns available to suicidal people doesn't reduce suicide rates, just suicide rates with guns. If someone is mentally infirm, and violently so, stopping them from getting a gun CAN be a good idea. However, depending on how determined they are to get a ffirearm, they could easily end up trying to steal one, or buying one illegally.

So, I have a proposition of my own: instead of putting an ineffective bandaid on the problem of mental health in America by trying to stop people that are suffering from getting their hands on certain items, let's actually try to solve the underlying problems causing their mental health problems by identifying the source cause!

BretJ said:

Thoughts on an ID endorsement ....

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What a slippery slope.

You know, such things tend to believe guilty until proven innocent.

Then there are multiple issues in where does one draw the line from what you are now wishing for a shrink to assess a person.

Moderate?

Seems like an extremist to me!

Its the potential of an idea.
So. A gun activist doesn't want the Government to know where his or her guns are, how many, etc.
Fine. Have one catch all "I.D." that proves you are a responsible gun owner with no history of violence or mental illness and as part and parcel have the background check once for the licensing. Then you don't get a BGC for each firearm, you don't have to inventory the firearm with the Government (I don't exactly agree with this part but let's ignore that for now), it saves work on the BGC team and inconvenience to the gun owner and all the Government knows is that you are licensed to buy a gun and not an obvious risk to the world around you by owning it.

That actually seems relatively fair.
Unless we are back to "then the Government has a good idea of who owns guns and will be after them first" which we already have with existing BGCs as far as paper trails go so...?

Nope.

BretJ said:

Thoughts on an ID endorsement which shows an individual is not an alcoholic, mental health/suicide risk or otherwise violent offender? ID would be shown prior to purchase of alcohol, firearms or ammunition. The seller or private provider (party host, brother in law, etc.) Could call number to verify id is still current prior to serving or selling these items. Substantially increase penalties for straw purchases or anyone providing or serving alcohol, firearms or ammunition to anyone not permitted. Also substantially increase end user penalties for attempting to circumvent the process.

Seems this idea could go a long way to reducing rape, child/spousal abuse, suicide, homicide, violent crime, health care costs and any number of alcohol related issues. Reducing the alcohol component by itself would greatly reduce firearms injuries and deaths. The firearms endorsement would help solve the issue of mentally unstable people having access to firearms and easily allow universal background checks.

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Why not just microchip everyone and get it over with.

Ntharotep said:

Its the potential of an idea.
So. A gun activist doesn't want the Government to know where his or her guns are, how many, etc.
Fine. Have one catch all "I.D." that proves you are a responsible gun owner with no history of violence or mental illness and as part and parcel have the background check once for the licensing. Then you don't get a BGC for each firearm, you don't have to inventory the firearm with the Government (I don't exactly agree with this part but let's ignore that for now), it saves work on the BGC team and inconvenience to the gun owner and all the Government knows is that you are licensed to buy a gun and not an obvious risk to the world around you by owning it.

That actually seems relatively fair.
Unless we are back to "then the Government has a good idea of who owns guns and will be after them first" which we already have with existing BGCs as far as paper trails go so...?

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What about the alcohol component? Works for guns it could work for alcohol considering alcohol is responsible for exponentially more tragedies and cost to society....

BretJ said:

What about the alcohol component? Works for guns it could work for alcohol considering alcohol is responsible for exponentially more tragedies and cost to society....

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I think it brings you to close to the illusion of prohibition...for the most part people don't even want to entertain alcohol control. We are at least entertaining gun violence control.

Ntharotep said:

I think it brings you to close to the illusion of prohibition...for the most part people don't even want to entertain alcohol control. We are at least entertaining gun violence control.

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When people don't care about a right it's easy for them to restrict it or to even eliminate it, but when they care about it they usually see restrictions as unacceptable.

This has been discussed before (related to guns) as an endorsement on all drivers licenses.
(A true universal background check) the up dates would come as often as the license renewals.
There are some details that could cause other issues, like people applying for jobs.
If the Government does not think you should own guns, should I consider you for employment.
This weakness could be removed by liberals volunteering to keep the endorsement off of their license.

One day hopefully we will evolve and acquire the intelligence to realize that it is far better to reach out and help those with a problem than to restrict the rights and freedom of those who do not. Unbelievable.

Driver's license. State issued ID. Required to buy alcohol.

Proof of being at least 21 years of age.

Dragonfly said:

Driver's license. State issued ID. Required to buy alcohol.

Proof of being at least 21 years of age.

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How does that prevent folks deemed to be alcoholics, violent offenders or suicide risks from obtaining alcohol? If it would work for firearms it would work for alcohol. In addition, why not much more substantial penalties for those that provide alcohol to underage drinkers. How about more stringent policies on college campuses? Stringent enough to scare the crap out of someone even considering it? Come on. Lives are at stake.

BretJ said:

Thoughts on an ID endorsement which shows an individual is not an alcoholic, mental health/suicide risk or otherwise violent offender? ID would be shown prior to purchase of alcohol, firearms or ammunition. The seller or private provider (party host, brother in law, etc.) Could call number to verify id is still current prior to serving or selling these items. Substantially increase penalties for straw purchases or anyone providing or serving alcohol, firearms or ammunition to anyone not permitted. Also substantially increase end user penalties for attempting to circumvent the process.

Seems this idea could go a long way to reducing rape, child/spousal abuse, suicide, homicide, violent crime, health care costs and any number of alcohol related issues. Reducing the alcohol component by itself would greatly reduce firearms injuries and deaths. The firearms endorsement would help solve the issue of mentally unstable people having access to firearms and easily allow universal background checks.

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While the proposal seems reasonable at face value I suspect that the effectiveness of such a program would be negligible.

1. Just because someone is sane on Tuesday doesn't mean that they won't be full on crazy come Thursday afternoon. One of the more common categories of shooting we experience is due to an argument, often an alcohol or drug fueled argument. There really isn't any kind of "pre-check" that will catch momentary fits of rage.

2. The other big category of shootings is gang violence. ID cards aren't going to stop that either because criminals are going to skirt the law anyway.

3. Suicides are the biggest source of gun deaths but no ID card is going to stop that either. Most suicides are committed by folks who seem more or less normal right up until they make their attempt. It's really easy to say "Gee, I guess that was a sign" after the fact but catching that sign before then is often quite difficult.


If I was going to implement a program such as this it would be handled the other way around. People would have their existing ID annotated that they were a prohibited person after they committed an act which warranted restriction of their rights. That would put the onus of proving a lawful restriction on the state, where it belongs.

BretJ said:

How does that prevent folks deemed to be alcoholics, violent offenders or suicide risks from obtaining alcohol? If it would work for firearms it would work for alcohol. In addition, why not much more substantial penalties for those that provide alcohol to underage drinkers. How about more stringent policies on college campuses? Stringent enough to scare the crap out of someone even considering it? Come on. Lives are at stake.

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There aren't enough laws on the books already?

RetiredUSN said:

There aren't enough laws on the books already?

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Liberals love having more than a dozen laws that all cover the same thing.

BretJ said:

Thoughts on an ID endorsement which shows an individual is not an alcoholic, mental health/suicide risk or otherwise violent offender? ID would be shown prior to purchase of alcohol, firearms or ammunition. The seller or private provider (party host, brother in law, etc.) Could call number to verify id is still current prior to serving or selling these items. Substantially increase penalties for straw purchases or anyone providing or serving alcohol, firearms or ammunition to anyone not permitted. Also substantially increase end user penalties for attempting to circumvent the process.

Seems this idea could go a long way to reducing rape, child/spousal abuse, suicide, homicide, violent crime, health care costs and any number of alcohol related issues. Reducing the alcohol component by itself would greatly reduce firearms injuries and deaths. The firearms endorsement would help solve the issue of mentally unstable people having access to firearms and easily allow universal background checks.

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How do you prove you aren't an alcoholic though? Would this require some kind of implant that tracks your BAC 24/7 for a period of time? (Which ignores the fact that addicts trying to quit can fall off the wagon after being clean for years).

A recent study also indicated that 90% of those classified as "heavy drinkers", who might previously be assumed to be alcoholics, are not in fact alcoholics. Muddy water there.



Nevermind that an alcoholic could just have someone else go buy the booze for him and drink it at home.

Mr Person said:

How do you prove you aren't an alcoholic though? Would this require some kind of implant that tracks your BAC 24/7 for a period of time? (Which ignores the fact that addicts trying to quit can fall off the wagon after being clean for years).

A recent study also indicated that 90% of those classified as "heavy drinkers", who might previously be assumed to be alcoholics, are not in fact alcoholics. Muddy water there.



Nevermind that an alcoholic could just have someone else go buy the booze for him and drink it at home.

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You would be required to prove you are not an alcoholic or suicidal through your gp. Very severe penalties for straw purchases would deter most...as in very severe.

Actually, this post was just an exercise to see if ideas proposed by the gun Prohibitionists would fly when applied to other freedoms and liberties. I find that in most cases, those folks are happy enough to restrict the rights and freedoms of others yet never consider modifying their own rights and freedoms to obtain similar goals....saving lives.