Us provokes Iraq civil war, surge is for another war

Shayah said:

What politician doesn't flip-flop? Are you telling me that you actually believed Cheney et. al. in that Iraq would be a day at the beach in 2003? The murderous and genocidal Ba'ath Party of Saddam Hussein could just barely keep the lid on internal combustion. This reality should have been painfully obvious to anyone who possessed even a cursory knowledge of Iraq.

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The collective critical thinking capacity of the American public is on par with gnats.

Shayah said:

What politician doesn't flip-flop? Are you telling me that you actually believed Cheney et. al. in that Iraq would be a day at the beach in 2003? The murderous and genocidal Ba'ath Party of Saddam Hussein could just barely keep the lid on internal combustion. This reality should have been painfully obvious to anyone who possessed even a cursory knowledge of Iraq.

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This isn't merely about Cheney flip flopping.

This is about the tragedy of what is happening in our government with war profiteering. These are unending lies, outright corruption, and insanity rolling into one giant mess. Its already having huge consequences on our economy. Our budget is strapped and oil prices are skyrocketing, these are just the immediate effects. And of course with serious consequences for our future economy, as well as future safety in the form of blowback.

This is about the reality of our mid east plans. Learning of this deceit shows the plan all along has been to overtake the middle east by first sending it into utter chaos. This is divide and conquer, one of the oldest military tactics known to man.

This shows the plan all along was a vision to stay in the mid east for decades and decades spending TRILLIONS of taxpayer dollars serving business interests. This is significant because it shows we are there as a result of the military industrial complex. Only money can motivate someone to take such a risky, costly undertaking. There is also the concept of the oil dollar/dollar hegemony at issue here. This is about greed. This is corruption facilitated by deceit at the highest levels of our system.

Gladiator said:

Islamic countries are more sensitive about occupation by a foreign power and more sensitive about having their doors broken down to their houses.

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Islamic xenophobia is a convenient excuse for Muslims that have a brain the size of a pea or the morality of Shaitan:

“On Friday, an influential Shiite cleric in Najaf, Iraq, announced his support for two of Israel's biggest enemies -- the Palestinian militant group Hamas and Lebanon-based Hezbollah.
‘They can consider me their striking hand in Iraq whenever there is a necessity and whenever there is a need,’ Moqtada al-Sadr said in a sermon at Al Kufa mosque.” (CNN, Saturday, April 3, 2004 Posted: 6:42 AM EST (1142 GMT))
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/02/iraq.main/index.html

What goes around comes around.

http://www.clichesite.com/content.asp?which=tip+1560

*****

“On the basis of what we said about Iraq while confronting aggressions, the world now needs to abort the US aggressive schemes, including its aggression on the Afghan people, which must stop.
Again we say that when someone feels that he is unjustly treated, and no one is repulsing or stopping the injustice inflicted on him, he personally seeks ways and means for lifting that justice. Of course, not everyone is capable of finding the best way for lifting the injustice inflicted on him. People resort to what they think is the best way according to their own ideas, and they are not all capable of reaching out for what is beyond what is available to arrive to the best idea or means.
To find the best way, after having found their way to God and His rights, those who are inflicted by injustice need not to be isolated from their natural milieu, or be ignored deliberately, or as a result of mis-appreciation, by the officials in this milieu. They should, rather, be reassured and helped to save themselves, and their surroundings. It is only normal to say that punishment is a necessity in our world, because what is a necessity in the other world must also be necessary in our world on Earth. But, the punishment in the other world is faire and just, and the prophets and messengers of God (peace be upon them all) conducted punishment and called for it in justice, and not on the basis of suspicions and whims.” (Saddam Hussein Shabban 13, 1422 H. October 29, 2001.)

“Once again, we say that, injustice and the pressure that results from it on people lead to explosions. As explosions are not always organized, it is to be expected that they may harm those who make them and others. The events of September 11, should be seen on this basis, and on the basis of imbalanced reactions, on the part of governments accused of being democratic, if the Americans are sure that these were carried out by people from abroad.
To concentrate not on what is important, but rather on what is the most important, we say again that after having seen that the flames of any fire can expand to cover all the world, it first and foremost, needs justice based on fairness. The best and most sublime expression of this is in what we have learned from what God the Al Mighty ordered to be, or not to be.” (Saddam Hussein Shabban 13, 1422 H. October 29, 2001.)

***** Questions *****

Tell me Gladiator, who are the magical “they” that Saddam said “should, rather, be reassured and helped to save themselves, and their surroundings?”

Were the mis-appreciated by the officials in the Islamic milieu, or the magical “they,” taking the law into their own hands according to their own ideas of justice?

Please, don’t plead ignorance as I am getting really tired of that crap.

True, or untrue:

“A. Taking the law into one's own hands amounts to either Fasad fi'l-Ard (creating disorder) or Muharabah (rebellion) -- both of which are punishable by death in Islam.”
http://www.allaahuakbar.net/JIHAAD/murder_manslaughter_terrorism.htm

Judgment day awaits us.

No doubt massive corruption has transpired. Is corruption the catalyst of war or is it an appendage of war? That is where we basically differ.

Shayah said:

No doubt massive corruption has transpired. Is corruption the catalyst of war or is it an appendage of war? That is where we basically differ.

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It doesn't have to be either or. You fail to recognize it can be a combination thereof - thats exactly what it is. The war profiteering is certainly a catalyst and an appendage. Where a potential conflict was looming, the profit motive was there to coerce our political leaders into accepting an incredibly risky and costly undertaking that doesn't necessarily advance our national interests.

TheHonestTruth said:

This is what happens when you kick somebody's *** in a debate. Ad hom attacks and childish name calling.

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You should know, you're the one who first started the ad-hom attacks when you called me brainwashed.

He can't explain why its logical to be handing out weapons to unstable warring factions, while at the same time our troops are patrolling looking for weapons caches.

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Yes I can, and I have, the Sunni tribal leaders have turned against AQ and are now fighting them tooth and nail so ofcourse we should support them in their fight when infact the defeat of AQI is one of our main policy objectives.

And Trajan could not address what Cheney said in the video I just linked.

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That video has been covered in depth on this site. Sorry but policy shifts over the course of a decade are quite acceptable IMO, especially in a post-911 world.

He has to ignore it because it exposes what a fraud this whole thing has been. Cheney called the idea of an Iraq invasion a quagmire, his own words.

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How do you like this video:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JE48XHKG64[/YOUTUBE]

Trajan Octavian Titus said:

Yes I can, and I have, the Sunni tribal leaders have turned against AQ and are now fighting them tooth and nail so ofcourse we should support them in their fight when infact the defeat of AQI is one of our main policy objectives.

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Wrong. They are mostly warring with Shia militia members, AQ barely exists in iraq the official estimate is only 7% there if we can even trust that. The facts are that the majority of violence is sectarian, therefore we are mostly increasing sectarian violence by adding arms to this conflict. Our government knows what its doing with that decision to arm them, you seem to be the only one unaware of those numbers.

Trajan Octavian Titus said:

That video has been covered in depth on this site. Sorry but policy shifts over the course of a decade are quite acceptable IMO, especially in a post-911 world.

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Policy shifts toward a planned quaqmire are nothing to endorse -- especially when all you're doing is creating more enemies than friends in the process.

Trajan Octavian Titus said:

How do you like this video:

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Very much! It furthers my point about the system as a whole. Gore was sold a bill of goods by the mil ind complex, he also was bought out by the military industrial complex, so is every big politician. Thats a point for me, not you.

Simon W. Moon said:

It seems decidedly more expensive and thus less efficient to keep our troops in rotation this whole time.
If thats the plan, it's a piss-poor one.

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__________________

Shayah said:

Your link points to a website hosted on a private server located in the obscure Coco Islands in southeast Asia. Hardly a reputable information outlet.

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Thanks for the tracking. But there are so many. What about this one.

So many tricks to set up so many bombings. Many bombing aimed at Iraqi police. The heavy casualty of police can irritate a revenge from police to the insurgence (Sunni people). A way to escalate the civil war.

Quote, . Khadduri's report <http://globalresearch.ca/articles/KHA505A.html> went like this:

Told him to report to an American military camp

"A few days ago, an American manned check point confiscated the driver license of a driver and told him to report to an American military camp near Baghdad airport for interrogation and in order to retrieve his license.

The next day, the driver did visit the camp and he was allowed in the camp with his car.

He was admitted to a room for an interrogation that lasted half an hour.
At the end of the session, the American interrogator told him:

'OK, there is nothing against you, but you do know that Iraq is now sovereign and is in charge of its own affairs.

Hence, we have forwarded your papers and license to al-Kadhimia police station for processing.

Therefore, go there with this clearance to reclaim your license.

At the police station, ask for Lt. Hussain Mohammed, who is waiting for you now.

Go there now quickly, before he leaves his shift work".

The driver did leave in a hurry, but was soon alarmed with a feeling that his car was driving as if carrying a heavy load, and he also became suspicious of a low flying helicopter that kept hovering overhead, as if trailing him.
He stopped the car and inspected it carefully.

He found nearly 100 kilograms of explosives hidden in the back seat and along the two back doors.

The only feasible explanation for this incident is that the car was indeed booby trapped by the Americans and intended for the al-Khadimiya Shiite district of Baghdad.

The helicopter was monitoring his movement and witnessing the anticipated "hideous attack by foreign elements".

(Global Research )

Shayah said:

No doubt massive corruption has transpired. Is corruption the catalyst of war or is it an appendage of war? That is where we basically differ.

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War is corruption itself. At this point, I would like to quote a famous speech:

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than 30 cities. It is two electric power plants, each serving a town of 60,000 population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals. It is some fifty miles of concrete pavement. We pay for a single fighter plane with a half million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than 8,000 people. This is, I repeat, the best way of life to be found on the road the world has been taking. This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron. […] Is there no other way the world may live?

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kathaksung said:

The only feasible explanation for this incident is that the car was indeed booby trapped by the Americans and intended for the al-Khadimiya Shiite district of Baghdad.

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عاجل! عاجل! إلى المواطنين من أصحاب السيارت!

Translate that last part there for me good buddy, the part that was left out, I don’t trust those things at global research:

“The Centre for Research on Globalisation (CRG) is an independent research and media group of writers, scholars journalists and activists. The CRG is based in Montreal. It is a registered non profit organization in the province of Quebec, Canada.”
GlobalResearch.ca - Centre for Research on Globalization



What back stabbing rodent licking weasels!

Oh, and while you are at it see if you can answer the questions Gladiator didn’t answer on page three:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/war-i...civil-war-surge-another-war-3.html#post672848

Thanks.

DivineComedy said:

عاجل! عاجل! إلى المواطنين من أصحاب السيارت!

Translate that last part there for me good buddy, the part that was left out, I don’t trust those things at global research:

“The Centre for Research on Globalisation (CRG) is an independent research and media group of writers, scholars journalists and activists. The CRG is based in Montreal. It is a registered non profit organization in the province of Quebec, Canada.”
GlobalResearch.ca - Centre for Research on Globalization

.

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Than what do you trust? Bush's "WMD"? Or his "democracy and liberation"? Or disinformation from swift boat team?

Tell me your opinion why the two British special force soldiers guised in Arabs with attacking weapons? Why did Bristish army desperately rescue them from the jail of their puppet Iraqi government?


Quote, "British special forces caught dressed as Arab 'terrorists'

British soldiers have been caught posing as Arabs and shooting Iraqis in the occupied city of Basra in southern Iraq. A group of them was caught yesterday by Iraqi police. They were driving an Iraqi car, wearing Arab clothing, and carrying weapons and explosives.

The Iraqi police were patrolling the area looking for suspected "terrorists" or "insurgents", and they noticed that the men were acting suspiciously. Suddenly, without warning, the suspicious men started shooting at people, but the new Iraqi security forces managed to capture some of them before they could escape. Obviously, if these men had not been caught, the mass media would now be reporting the incident as just another attempt by evil "terrorists" to create civil war in Iraq.

There have been a number of incidents in this area and throughout Iraq in which police and civilians have been targeted and killed by "terrorists" or "insurgents". But this is the first time that any of those responsible have been caught in the act, and it is now clear that at least some of them are working directly for the occupying forces, as many Iraqis have openly suspected all along.

A few days ago, in a statement unreported in the corporate mass media, Iran's most senior military official specifically linked the instability in Iraq with agents of the US and its allies: "we have information that the insecurity has its roots in the activities of American and Israeli spies."

The post-war violence in Iraq is always been blamed on "Islamic extremists" or "rival ethnic factions". Yet in the history of the country, nothing like this has ever happened before. The problems began precisely when the US and UK seized control.

The Iraqi police arrested the men and put them in prison. Unfortunately the police never had a chance to question the men and find out exactly what they were doing, because within minutes the UK sent in six tanks and an elite SAS unit to break their terrorists out of jail.

During the illegal prison break Iraqi officials were held at gunpoint, much of the jail was demolished, and all of the other criminals and insurgents were set free. The US and UK do not hesitate to use violence and terror to achieve their objectives, no matter what the consequences.

The official explanation for the illegal jail break is that somebody thought the British men might be taken away by a gang of Iraqi resistance fighters and never seen again. This is blatantly nonsense, of course, because the entire prison was entirely surrounded by British tanks and troops. With the full force of the British military at hand, the terrorists were rescued quickly and easily.


SOURCE

The Guardian, "British tanks storm Basra jail to free undercover soldiers", front page, 20 September 2005.
<http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1573933,00.html>

British tanks storm Basra jail to free undercover soldiers
British troops used tanks last night to break down the walls of a prison in the southern Iraqi city of Basra and free two undercover British soldiers who were seized earlier in the day by local police.

An official from the Iraqi interior ministry said half a dozen tanks had broken down the walls of the jail and troops had then stormed it to free the two British soldiers. The governor of Basra last night condemned the "barbaric aggression" of British forces in storming the jail.

Aquil Jabbar, an Iraqi television cameraman who lives across the street from the jail, said dozens of Iraqi prisoners also fled in the confusion.
...
In a day of dramatic incidents in the heart of the British-controlled area of Iraq, the two undercover soldiers - almost certainly special forces - were held by Iraqi security forces after clashes that reportedly left two people dead and threatened to escalate into a diplomatic incident between London and Baghdad.

The soldiers, who were said to have been wearing Arab headdress, were accused of firing at Iraqi police when stopped at a road block.
...
Muhammad al-Abadi, an official in the Basra governorate, told journalists the two undercover soldiers had looked suspicious to police. "A policeman approached them and then one of these guys fired at him. Then the police managed to capture them."

---------

Washington Post, "British Smash Into Iraqi Jail To Free 2 Detained Soldiers", front page, 20 September 2005.

<http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/19/AR2005091900572.html>

BAGHDAD, Sept. 19 -- British armored vehicles backed by helicopter gunships burst through the walls of an Iraqi jail Monday in the southern city of Basra to free two British commandos detained earlier in the day by Iraqi police, witnesses and Iraqi officials said. The incident climaxed a confrontation between the two nominal allies that had sparked hours of gun battles and rioting in Basra's streets.
An Iraqi official said a half-dozen armored vehicles had smashed into the jail, the Reuters news agency reported. The provincial governor, Mohammed Walli, told news agencies that the British assault was "barbaric, savage and irresponsible."
...
In London, authorities said the two commandos were released after negotiations. But the BBC quoted British defense officials as saying a wall was demolished when British forces went to "collect" the men.
The killing of the New York Times reporter took place six weeks after an American freelance journalist, Steven Vincent, was kidnapped and killed in Basra, allegedly after being taken away in a marked police car. ...
...
Iraqi security officials on Monday variously accused the two Britons they detained of shooting at Iraqi forces or trying to plant explosives. Photographs of the two men in custody showed them in civilian clothes.

In 2005, so said Al Qaida bombed the Shiite shrine in Samarra which provoked the conflict between Sunni and Shiite. This month, the remnant of the shrine was bombed again. This time Iraqis see more clearly when they start to realize the true face of the US. That US activates false flag "terror attack" to provoke a civil war.

Quote, "Iraqis Accuse U.S. Of Bombing Shrine -

Both Sunni and Shias Iraqis have accused the U.S. of being behind the bombing the al-Askari shrine in Samarra, one of the holiest Shia religious sites, in order to further incite sectarian violence between the two rival Islamic groups and provide a justification for the American surge.

Sunni Muslim leaders belonging to the Association of Muslim Scholars of Iraq have questioned how terrorists could get access to the site which has been heavily guarded by about 60 Federal Protection Service forces and 25 local Iraqi police and closed to the public since it was attacked last year in a bombing which many also believed to be the work of US forces.

Steve Watson
Prison Planet
Wednesday, June 13, 2007

Full article - http://prisonplanet .com/articles/ june2007/ 130607Shrine. htm
http://s.webring.com/forum?forum=winwithoutwarweb;did=571

kathaksung said:

Than what do you trust?

Tell me your opinion why the two British special force soldiers guised in Arabs with attacking weapons? Why did Bristish army desperately rescue them from the jail of their puppet Iraqi government?

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That is simple, if it comes down to trusting the British who burned down my ancestor’s house after he signed the Declaration of Independence or trusting Moqtada al-Sadr‘s people (who by words alone prove they are TERRORISTS), I trust the British people.

April 3, 2004: “On Friday, an influential Shiite cleric in Najaf, Iraq, announced his support for two of Israel's biggest enemies -- the Palestinian militant group Hamas and Lebanon-based Hezbollah.
‘They can consider me their striking hand in Iraq whenever there is a necessity and whenever there is a need,’ Moqtada al-Sadr said in a sermon at Al Kufa mosque.” (CNN, Saturday, April 3, 2004 Posted: 6:42 AM EST (1142 GMT))
CNN.com - Military officials: Empty streets, media point to planned Iraq attack - Apr 2, 2004

September 20, 2005: “There was a strong suspicion that the police in Basra were acting in collusion with followers of the populist Shia cleric Moqtada al-Sadr, who wants British and American troops out of Iraq and has been increasingly fomenting unrest in the south.”
Army storms jail to free seized soldiers - Times Online

“They were driving an Iraqi car, wearing Arab clothing, and carrying weapons and explosives,” and “the police managed to capture them?”

WOW, now if only the Iraqi police could capture the known terrorist Moqtada al-Sadr, acting suspiciously for longer than a year at that time, then I would believe the Iraqi police “managed” anything so daring against weapons and explosives in the hands of the British.

Anybody who believes the British or Americans would need to stoop to terrorism, to provoke a civil war, while believing Moqtada al-Sadr is not a terrorist, are quite likely the most retarded inbred long necked cousin marrying morons on the planet.

Is Moqtada al-Sadr a terrorist? Answer the question immediately!

Oh, and while you are at it, AGAIN, see if you can answer the questions Gladiator didn’t answer on page three:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/war-i...civil-war-surge-another-war-3.html#post672848

You rant a lot. Nobody knows what is your point.

Similar event happened with Americans. Obviously it was an organized provokateur action.

Quote, "Iraqis apprehend two Americans disguised as Arabs trying to detonate a car bomb in a residential neighborhood of western Baghdad's al-Ghazaliyah district on Tuesday.

A number of Iraqis apprehended two Americans disguised in Arab dress as they tried to blow up a booby-trapped car in the middle of a residential area in western Baghdad on Tuesday.

Residents of western Baghdad's al-Ghazaliyah district told Quds Press that the people had apprehended the Americans as they left their Caprice car near a residential neighborhood in al-Ghazaliyah on Tuesday afternoon (11 October 2005). Local people found they looked suspicious so they detained the men before they could get away. That was when they discovered that they were Americans and called the Iraqi puppet police.

Five minutes after the arrival of the Iraqi puppet police on the scene a large force of US troops showed up and surrounded the area. They put the two Americans in one of their Humvees and drove away at high speed to the astonishment of the residents of the area.

Quds Press spoke by telephone with a member of the al-Ghazaliyah puppet police who confirmed the incident, saying that the two men were non-Arab foreigners but declined to be more precise about their nationality.

Quds Press pointed out that about a month ago, the Iraqi puppet police in the southern Iraqi city of al-Basrah arrested two Britons whom they accused of attempting to cause an explosion in the city. The Britons were taken into custody by the Iraqi puppet police only to be broken out of prison by an assault of British occupation troops. That incident has created a tense relationship between the British and the local puppet authorities in al-Basrah, Quds Press noted.

Iraqi Resistance Report for events of Wednesday, 12 October 2005

kathaksung said:

You rant a lot.

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Oh, and while you are at it, AGAIN, see if you can answer the questions Gladiator didn’t answer on page three:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/war-i...civil-war-surge-another-war-3.html#post672848

Also, answer the damn question on page four:

“Is Moqtada al-Sadr a terrorist? Answer the question immediately!”

I think this is the most idiotic thread on the website. People constently say GWB is an idiot then say hes behind all the bombings in iraq. Also our goverment isnt smart enough to do all this. Isreal is certanlly smart enough to do it but they lack the manpower. If they did there economy would be in the crapper. Anyone who thinks were behind this is a idiot.

DivineComedy said:

Also, answer the damn question on page four:

“Is Moqtada al-Sadr a terrorist? Answer the question immediately!”

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Stupid question. It's a controversial issue depends on opinion and angle. You can say he is a nationalist, a resistant .... at least US doesn't put him on the list of terrorist. But I can give you an sure opinion that Bush is a war criminal.

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Benificiary of Iraq civil war

The Sunni Muslim in Iraq is anti-Israel. Saddam had used his Scuds missle to attack Israel in the First Gulf war.

The Shiite Muslim in Iraq is anti-Israel. It's religion ally - Iran - hates Israel too.

Either one takes dominent in Iraq will be an Islamic government which will be hostile to Israel. If they are in civil war, then they have no time and ability to take care of the business of Israel. Who is benefit from Iraq civil war?

kathaksung said:

Stupid question. It's a controversial issue depends on opinion and angle. You can say he is a nationalist, a resistant .... at least US doesn't put him on the list of terrorist. But I can give you an sure opinion that Bush is a war criminal.

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Three strikes, you are OUT!

At this point I am assuming that according to you the taking of the law into ones own hands according to their own ideas of justice is legal in Islamic law, and according to you the use of civilian disguise to facilitate killing (a.k.a. Hamas tactics) is not a war crime.

You should not be allowed freedom anywhere, forevermore, that is my opinion and angle.