• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Philadelphia mosque leaders tries to cut off man`s hand[W:51]

Re: Philadelphia mosque leaders tries to cut off man`s hand

Gardener said:
So it is inability to comprehend.

Got it.
Click to expand...

Its interesting how quickly your side turns to ad homs when you cannot make a point. 2 men out of 313.9 million, so zero percent, committed an act of trying to cut someone's hands off according to their interpretation of their holy book. And here you sit trying to make it seem like it's some rampant epidemic. They assault someone, they go to jail. That's pretty much all there is to it. No one is making excuses, no one is saying it shoud be legal, there isn't blood in the streets fro Muslims trying to implement Sharia law in the US.

You got nothing. Which is probably why you resorted to personal insults.
 
Re: Philadelphia mosque leaders tries to cut off man`s hand

Ikari said:
Its interesting how quickly your side turns to ad homs when you cannot make a point. 2 men out of 313.9 million, so zero percent, committed an act of trying to cut someone's hands off according to their interpretation of their holy book. And here you sit trying to make it seem like it's some rampant epidemic. They assault someone, they go to jail. That's pretty much all there is to it. No one is making excuses, no one is saying it shoud be legal, there isn't blood in the streets fro Muslims trying to implement Sharia law in the US.

You got nothing. Which is probably why you resorted to personal insults.
Click to expand...

I did not make it sound like an epidemic.

You keep indulging in what is either a calculated ruse or else a failure to understand when you keep dismissing these actions as mere criminality. They aren't. They are attempting to carry out an alternate legality, and they are part of a global-wide group that seeks the same. This is the same group with whom we are at war, both in the real physical sense as well as the ideological, and your continual dismissal of the essential nature of the beast here is the problem.

This is not criminality. It is the extension of the very political philosophy that is at war with us.
 
Re: Philadelphia mosque leaders tries to cut off man`s hand

Gaius46 said:
Sharia Law is not, will not and cannot be used in the US.

Laws are enacted on the societal level, not at the level of individuals. Some boob whacking off someone elses hand is not an enactment of Sharia Law - it's a felony.
Sharia Law can never be enacted in this country without first repealing the entire Constitution.
Click to expand...

I know that sarcasm doesn't come across very well in type.
 
Re: Philadelphia mosque leaders tries to cut off man`s hand

Gardener said:
I did not make it sound like an epidemic.

You keep indulging in what is either a calculated ruse or else a failure to understand when you keep dismissing these actions as mere criminality. They aren't. They are attempting to carry out an alternate legality, and they are part of a global-wide group that seeks the same. This is the same group with whom we are at war, both in the real physical sense as well as the ideological, and your continual dismissal of the essential nature of the beast here is the problem.

This is not criminality. It is the extension of the very political philosophy that is at war with us.
Click to expand...

Lots of people who commit crimes are trying to act out some alternate legality, some even do so as an extension of political philosophy. That rancher, for instance, did exactly this. But they cannot succeed. Sharia law will never be a legal entity in its whole. The best it can hope for is to be able to practice the principles that do not contradict US law. Which is essentially the restriction we're all under.

The US, our laws, and our society are not quite as fragile as you seemingly think. You can't stop people from committing crimes, and a certain number will for a variety of reasons. If this aggregated up, perhaps more attention could be paid. But as it stands it is an isolated case of two guys from Philly assaulting another with a deadly weapon. Day in the life of Philadelphia.
 
Re: Philadelphia mosque leaders tries to cut off man`s hand

Ikari said:
Lots of people who commit crimes are trying to act out some alternate legality, some even do so as an extension of political philosophy. That rancher, for instance, did exactly this. But they cannot succeed. Sharia law will never be a legal entity in its whole. The best it can hope for is to be able to practice the principles that do not contradict US law. Which is essentially the restriction we're all under.

The US, our laws, and our society are not quite as fragile as you seemingly think. You can't stop people from committing crimes, and a certain number will for a variety of reasons. If this aggregated up, perhaps more attention could be paid. But as it stands it is an isolated case of two guys from Philly assaulting another with a deadly weapon. Day in the life of Philadelphia.
Click to expand...

They are Mosque LEADERS, and so have influence over a larger group. As such, you are not dealing with the mere isolated criminality of two individuals, but of a larger system.

I would feel a lot more comfortable about the state of our country (and Europe) if more people would respond to this barbarity with "Man, that's some effed up midieval ****, so lets make sure it doesn't spread" instead of these absolute mountains of apologia, deflection, indifference, rationalization and dismissal. It is this widespread patterm of apologia that I find more troubling than the acts, themselves.
 
Re: Philadelphia mosque leaders tries to cut off man`s hand

Gardener said:
You contribute to the intellectual dishonesty when you pooh-pooh it as mere criminality rather than the actions of people following the legal dictates of the civilizational model they wish to impose. The only other possibility is that you simply do not comprehend the difference between ordinary criminality acted upon by individuals and the pursuit of a political objective acted upon by a group.
Click to expand...
Nah. They just believe that while fundamentalists have proven themselves to be precisely what they are around the globe and have used their extremism to justify rapes, stoning, executions, beheadings, etc, that here in the US...they wont attempt to act in fundamentalist fanatical ways so really...there is no cause for concern. See...in America, the Muslim fundamentalist will subvert their beliefs and embrace law and order. Well...OK...not ALL of them...but MOST of them...so there is nothing to worry about from extremists.
 
Re: Philadelphia mosque leaders tries to cut off man`s hand

Gardener said:
They are Mosque LEADERS, and so have influence over a larger group. As such, you are not dealing with the mere isolated criminality of two individuals, but of a larger system.

I would feel a lot more comfortable about the state of our country (and Europe) if more people would respond to this barbarity with "Man, that's some effed up midieval ****, so lets make sure it doesn't spread" instead of these absolute mountains of apologia, deflection, indifference, rationalization and dismissal. It is this widespread patterm of apologia that I find more troubling than the acts, themselves.
Click to expand...

It is some messed up, medieval stuff and there are already laws which make this act illegal.
 
Re: Philadelphia mosque leaders tries to cut off man`s hand

VanceMack said:
Nah. They just believe that while fundamentalists have proven themselves to be precisely what they are around the globe and have used their extremism to justify rapes, stoning, executions, beheadings, etc, that here in the US...they wont attempt to act in fundamentalist fanatical ways so really...there is no cause for concern. See...in America, the Muslim fundamentalist will subvert their beliefs and embrace law and order. Well...OK...not ALL of them...but MOST of them...so there is nothing to worry about from extremists.
Click to expand...


You know, Vance, if we can only pretend hard enough, deny strongly enough and dedicate ourselves with enough vigor to running interference for them, we just KNOW they will go away. Have faith, man. It works like Magic!
 
Re: Philadelphia mosque leaders tries to cut off man`s hand

Gaius46 said:
Sharia Law is not, will not and cannot be used in the US.
Click to expand...

Used for what....people follow tenets of Sharia every day and are protected in doing so by the Constitution.

Laws are enacted on the societal level, not at the level of individuals. Some boob whacking off someone elses hand is not an enactment of Sharia Law - it's a felony.
Click to expand...

You got that part right, there is great debate about whether Sharia calls for the cutting off of hands.


Sharia Law can never be enacted in this country without first repealing the entire Constitution.
Click to expand...
Enacted as the law of the land? Of course not. But my guess is that within 10 miles of you someone is following Sharia as we type.
 
Re: Philadelphia mosque leaders tries to cut off man`s hand

Sababa said:
Used for what....people follow tenets of Sharia every day and are protected in doing so by the Constitution.



You got that part right, there is great debate about whether Sharia calls for the cutting off of hands.



Enacted as the law of the land? Of course not. But my guess is that within 10 miles of you someone is following Sharia as we type.
Click to expand...

I corrected myself on that point somewhat later on. Ít's something I should have intellectually recongnized - that there are components of Sharia that are legal under US law - but didn't until I read a post of yours that stated such.
 
Re: Philadelphia mosque leaders tries to cut off man`s hand

Gardener said:
You know, Vance, if we can only pretend hard enough, deny strongly enough and dedicate ourselves with enough vigor to running interference for them, we just KNOW they will go away. Have faith, man. It works like Magic!
Click to expand...
Its funny how often its just really not that big a deal.
"When she stepped inside, her mother fumed, “Where were you, bitch?” Tina explained that she had taken a part-time job at a Wendy’s restaurant a mile from home and had just finished her first shift.
“We do not accept that — to work!” shouted her father. He raged about fornication with the boy and called his daughter a “she-devil.” For several minutes, they argued in a mix of English and Arabic about whether Tina would be allowed to continue living with her parents. “Come on, throw me out!” Tina said. “OK, here is my key.” During the argument, Maria Isa searched Tina’s school bag, interrogating her about shoes, books and a newspaper she found inside.
The father suddenly cut off the conversation. “Listen, my dear daughter, do you know that this is the last day?” Zein Isa said. “Huh?” Tina replied. "Do you know that you are going to die tonight?”
When he returned from the kitchen with a 7-inch boning knife, Tina grasped that he was serious. She cried out, “Mother, please help me!” "Shut up" her mother replied. "What help?” the mother replied. “Are you going to listen? Are you going to listen?” “Yes! Yes! Yes, I am!” But it was too late. As her mother pinned the screaming girl to the living room floor, her father raised the knife and buried it in her left breast six times. “No! Please!” she shouted.
“Shut up!” her mother replied. “Die! Die quickly!” said the father. After one final death groan, he added, “Quiet, little one! Die, my daughter, die!”
Zein Isa, who owned a small grocery store, had been under surveillance as a member of a Midwest-based terrorist cell linked to Abu Nidal, a jihadist group. The seven-minute Isa family argument culminating in the stone-hearted murder had been recorded via a bug planted in their home.
Maria Isa held her daughter Tina down as her husband stabbed the teen to death.
Maria Isa held her daughter Tina down as her husband stabbed the teen to death.
FBI agents heard every mortifying word when they reviewed the tapes the next morning.
The press called it an “honor killing,” though Zein and Maria Isa stuck to their story that the girl had struck first.
The FBI recording was damning evidence when the two went on trial for first-degree murder in the fall of 1991. They did little to encourage sympathy, and both were convicted.
At her sentencing, Maria Isa told the judge that it was all Tina’s fault.
“My daughter was very disrespectful and very rebellious,” she said. “We should not have to pay with our lives for something she did.”
List of Islamic Terror Attacks in America
"Misunderstanders" Roster

Freak out about it? No. Bury your head in the sand and pretend it isnt a growing problem? Sure...why not.
 
Re: Philadelphia mosque leaders tries to cut off man`s hand

VanceMack said:
Its funny how often its just really not that big a deal.
"When she stepped inside, her mother fumed, “Where were you, bitch?” Tina explained that she had taken a part-time job at a Wendy’s restaurant a mile from home and had just finished her first shift.
“We do not accept that — to work!” shouted her father. He raged about fornication with the boy and called his daughter a “she-devil.” For several minutes, they argued in a mix of English and Arabic about whether Tina would be allowed to continue living with her parents. “Come on, throw me out!” Tina said. “OK, here is my key.” During the argument, Maria Isa searched Tina’s school bag, interrogating her about shoes, books and a newspaper she found inside.
The father suddenly cut off the conversation. “Listen, my dear daughter, do you know that this is the last day?” Zein Isa said. “Huh?” Tina replied. "Do you know that you are going to die tonight?”
When he returned from the kitchen with a 7-inch boning knife, Tina grasped that he was serious. She cried out, “Mother, please help me!” "Shut up" her mother replied. "What help?” the mother replied. “Are you going to listen? Are you going to listen?” “Yes! Yes! Yes, I am!” But it was too late. As her mother pinned the screaming girl to the living room floor, her father raised the knife and buried it in her left breast six times. “No! Please!” she shouted.
“Shut up!” her mother replied. “Die! Die quickly!” said the father. After one final death groan, he added, “Quiet, little one! Die, my daughter, die!”
Zein Isa, who owned a small grocery store, had been under surveillance as a member of a Midwest-based terrorist cell linked to Abu Nidal, a jihadist group. The seven-minute Isa family argument culminating in the stone-hearted murder had been recorded via a bug planted in their home.
Maria Isa held her daughter Tina down as her husband stabbed the teen to death.
Maria Isa held her daughter Tina down as her husband stabbed the teen to death.
FBI agents heard every mortifying word when they reviewed the tapes the next morning.
The press called it an “honor killing,” though Zein and Maria Isa stuck to their story that the girl had struck first.
The FBI recording was damning evidence when the two went on trial for first-degree murder in the fall of 1991. They did little to encourage sympathy, and both were convicted.
At her sentencing, Maria Isa told the judge that it was all Tina’s fault.
“My daughter was very disrespectful and very rebellious,” she said. “We should not have to pay with our lives for something she did.”
List of Islamic Terror Attacks in America
"Misunderstanders" Roster

Freak out about it? No. Bury your head in the sand and pretend it isnt a growing problem? Sure...why not.
Click to expand...

Didn't happen, man, didn't happen. I'm sticking my finers in my ears, it didn't happen. I'm closing my eyes. "Nyah, nyah, Nyah, it didn't happen!"

and don't you dare continue with this stuff or I might be required to hold my breath till I turn blue, too. Gotta stay on message, you know.
 
Re: Philadelphia mosque leaders tries to cut off man`s hand

So one incident in 1991 and another in 2014, and these things are on the rise? We need to freak out about it? Make more laws? For something that happens once every 13 years? So what's the solution then?

It's an interesting sort of outlook. Though perhaps y'all can point out where anyone has endorsed these actions or said they should be legal or that we shouldn't take assault and violence against another human seriously. Can y'all point to these posts? Or is this display of emotionalized hyperbole nothing but that?


Yeah....thought so.
 
Last edited:
Re: Philadelphia mosque leaders tries to cut off man`s hand

Ikari said:
So one incident in 1991 and another in 2014, and these things are on the rise? We need to freak out about it? Make more laws? For something that happens once every 13 years? So what's the solution then?

It's an interesting sort of outlook. Though perhaps y'all can point out where anyone has endorsed these actions or said they should be legal or that we shouldn't take assault and violence against another human seriously. Can y'all point to these posts? Or is this display of emotionalized hyperbole nothing but that?


Yeah....thought so.
Click to expand...
You didnt look at either of the links, did you? If you dont want to do that, Google is your friend. Or better yet, just continue to pretend it isnt a threat. After all...its not like extremist fundamentalists are killing people or blowing **** up around the world.
 
Re: Philadelphia mosque leaders tries to cut off man`s hand

VanceMack said:
You didnt look at either of the links, did you? If you dont want to do that, Google is your friend. Or better yet, just continue to pretend it isnt a threat. After all...its not like extremist fundamentalists are killing people or blowing **** up around the world.
Click to expand...

I looked at it. 9/11 we went to war for and destabilized an entire region, making it ideal for terrorists. So that's been taken care of. The rest doesn't even average to 1 death per year. 1 death per year, in case statistics isn't your strong suit, there are ~14,000 homicides per year in America. You have 1/14000. Or .007%. So 0.007% is a rising trend? What do we need to freak out about again? What are you proposing as a solution?
 
Re: Philadelphia mosque leaders tries to cut off man`s hand

Ikari said:
I looked at it. 9/11 we went to war for and destabilized an entire region, making it ideal for terrorists. So that's been taken care of. The rest doesn't even average to 1 death per year. 1 death per year, in case statistics isn't your strong suit, there are ~14,000 homicides per year in America. You have 1/14000. Or .007%. So 0.007% is a rising trend? What do we need to freak out about again? What are you proposing as a solution?
Click to expand...
The solution is obvious. BE aware. Pay attention. Dont discount the occurrences. Those links show very clearly that there are not ones or tens, or even hundreds, but literally THOUSANDS of extremists and supporters of fundamentalist causes here in the US. They show an increase in things like 'honor killings' in the US. What should be done? How about global and very vocal condemnation by EVERYONE including those very silent but 'different' Muslims that dont commit such acts.

Or...do nothing. Whatever.
 
Re: Philadelphia mosque leaders tries to cut off man`s hand

VanceMack said:
The solution is obvious. BE aware. Pay attention. Dont discount the occurrences. Those links show very clearly that there are not ones or tens, or even hundreds, but literally THOUSANDS of extremists and supporters of fundamentalist causes here in the US. They show an increase in things like 'honor killings' in the US. What should be done? How about global and very vocal condemnation by EVERYONE including those very silent but 'different' Muslims that dont commit such acts.

Or...do nothing. Whatever.
Click to expand...

The latter is likely the more reasonable reaction to a 0.007% problem. We already have laws and rules on hand that make murder illegal and we can take it in individual case. Be aware, pay attention? I mean, that's just what you should be doing in daily life regardless. But more laws? Bigger government? Intrusion against the rights and liberties of the individual? Probably not all that necessary for a 0.007% effect.
 
Re: Philadelphia mosque leaders tries to cut off man`s hand

Ikari said:
The latter is likely the more reasonable reaction to a 0.007% problem. We already have laws and rules on hand that make murder illegal and we can take it in individual case. Be aware, pay attention? I mean, that's just what you should be doing in daily life regardless. But more laws? Bigger government? Intrusion against the rights and liberties of the individual? Probably not all that necessary for a 0.007% effect.
Click to expand...
There are no intrusions and awareness regardless Muslim fundamentalists is just a wee bit more intensive. Their purpose and intent is a 'known'.

You really think an honor killing of a child should just be given the same ho hum as any other homicide? I mean...if so...I'm cool with that. Just curious.
 
Re: Philadelphia mosque leaders tries to cut off man`s hand

VanceMack said:
There are no intrusions and awareness regardless Muslim fundamentalists is just a wee bit more intensive. Their purpose and intent is a 'known'.

You really think an honor killing of a child should just be given the same ho hum as any other homicide? I mean...if so...I'm cool with that. Just curious.
Click to expand...

Life in prison without parole. 1st degree murder already gets you there, which is what honor killings would be. I don't support the death penalty, so that's already as far as I go. I don't know how "ho hum" that is. Murder gets you in prison, and I wouldn't want to spend second 1 in prison.
 
Re: Philadelphia mosque leaders tries to cut off man`s hand

Ikari said:
Life in prison without parole. 1st degree murder already gets you there, which is what honor killings would be. I don't support the death penalty, so that's already as far as I go. I don't know how "ho hum" that is. Murder gets you in prison, and I wouldn't want to spend second 1 in prison.
Click to expand...
I gotcha. So...those morons that lose their bladders when a gay guy gets beat down...they should just shut the **** up. I mean...come on...there are already LAWS about such things.
 
Re: Philadelphia mosque leaders tries to cut off man`s hand

VanceMack said:
I gotcha. So...those morons that lose their bladders when a gay guy gets beat down...they should just shut the **** up. I mean...come on...there are already LAWS about such things.
Click to expand...

There are already laws. I don't support things like hate crime legislation, if that's what you're trying to get at. Those people will be punished. Whether you beat someone to death because you're racist, sexist, pissed off, random, etc. doesn't matter so much as the base offense that you beat someone to death. Beyond 1st degree, 2nd degree, and Manslaughter; intent has very little to do with it.

Not everyone has to shup up. But if those people were going to say "OMG, everyone in Wyoming hates gays! We have to do something about it"; I'd say that's a bridge too far.
 
Re: Philadelphia mosque leaders tries to cut off man`s hand

Ikari said:
There are already laws. I don't support things like hate crime legislation, if that's what you're trying to get at. Those people will be punished. Whether you beat someone to death because you're racist, sexist, pissed off, random, etc. doesn't matter so much as the base offense that you beat someone to death. Beyond 1st degree, 2nd degree, and Manslaughter; intent has very little to do with it.

Not everyone has to shup up. But if those people were going to say "OMG, everyone in Wyoming hates gays! We have to do something about it"; I'd say that's a bridge too far.
Click to expand...
Why should it even be a story, right? I mean...come on. People get killed all the time. Laws are in place. Why should it matter if the victims is gay?
 
Re: Philadelphia mosque leaders tries to cut off man`s hand

VanceMack said:
Why should it even be a story, right? I mean...come on. People get killed all the time. Laws are in place. Why should it matter if the victims is gay?
Click to expand...

On some level, yes. If these are isolated incidents, such as the 0.007% figure you show then there isn't much to worry about. If these things aggregate into larger statistics, there can be indication of a problem. If you want a story that states "Muslim Extremists Kill XXX", that's fine as that's what the story is. There's no reason to hide facts. But if it's something like a 0.007%, we can stop short of "All Muslims are Terrorists!" "OMG, Muslims exist and they're dangerous!!!!" sort of group think.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom