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US Partisan Politics and Political Platforms Debate Victory? (or) The Gibson/Couric Trigger?; Originally Posted by MrVicchio I know the questions were not known before hand. Biden is the old pro. That spiel ...

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Old 10-03-08, 04:20 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Debate Victory? (or) The Gibson/Couric Trigger?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
I know the questions were not known before hand.

Biden is the old pro. That spiel about his kids... watch any of his stump speeches. Watch him talk about Home Depot and other places.
Watch Palin drop the words "maverick", "soccer mom", and "microcosm". It's like it's Pee Wee's magic word and we should all scream.
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Old 10-03-08, 07:05 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Thread Starter Re: Debate Victory? (or) The Gibson/Couric Trigger?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMak View Post
This is a foolish and simplistic notion.
Do you realize what John McCain has been saying about Palin since the day he and Karl Rove picked her? They’ve always relied on her experience as being the reason why she’s fit for the role of VP. So, do you not agree with McCain/Rove?


Quote:
Originally Posted by JMak View Post
However, we are rational individuals…
Well, you’ve just used circular logic. How is circular logic a demonstration of rational behavior?

If not using (as I have suggested) Presidential and/or Vice Presidential experience as the measure by which you select one for the White House, a foolish and simplistic notion, then how can you at the same time say that “of course, no individual can have such experience” when for the past several weeks the entire Republican Party as been using Palin’s experience as Mayor of Wassila and Palin’s experience as Governor of Alaska, as the singularly all important measure for qualifying her for the role of VP.

Do you now disagree with McCain himself on why Palin is ‘qualified’ to be his VP?


Quote:
Originally Posted by JMak View Post
…that can identify those qualities and characteristics that we believe are representative of effective managers and leaders and decision-makers. And we can infer from an individuals' "experiences" whether they possess these qualities and characteristics to a level sufficient to make us believe that they can or will perform well as President.
And, what are those measures, if not competence as demonstrated through aptitude, capacity and appropriateness, if executive level experience is foolish and simplistic notion?

Careful how you answer that one! I’ve just set a logic trap that you cannot avoid. You’ve been outflanked here because you now MUST answer this question given that YOU (not me) have set it up as your premise for determining the rules for “measuring” the qualifications of the candidate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JMak View Post
It also helps if we believe that the candidate shares the same perception of our nation, role of government, and similar political preferences.
Belief that one shares the same perceptions?

Now, we are starting to get somewhere. This is where we begin to peel back the onion of the illogical application of McCain’s use of Palin’s Alaskan experience as the measure for her qualifications as Vice President.

Some people ‘believe’ in Santa Claus, flying reindeer, three bears that can talk, big foot, the tooth fairy, a green bean stalk that reaches up to a city floating in the clouds, changing the essential nature of a people who have been fighting with each other since 3100 BCE through regime change and that the fundamentals of structurally broken economy are strong. However, did those beliefs have anything to do with reality?

Be careful here!


Quote:
Originally Posted by JMak View Post
Competency for what? Aptitude for what? Appropriatness of and for what? What are the specific measures? Why are these measures the best predictors of performance.
Word: Competency
Function: Noun
Definition: The quality or state of being mentally competent (or, prepared).


The President and Vice President must demonstrate a ‘quality’ and or a ‘state of being’ mentally prepared for the role.

How do they accomplish that? Through intellectual command and control of the issues that the office they seek will engage on a daily basis and to a level, depth and degree (both horizontally and vertically) that are made known through their dialog, communication and responsiveness to any and all relevant questions and follow-up questions put to them in any forum and or any format constructive to and for the express purpose distributing understand among, subordinates, agents, staff and adversaries.

Obama, Biden and McCain have demonstrated Presidential Competency. Palin, has not.

Word: Aptitude
Function: Noun
Definition: The proven proclivity, predilection, faculty and/or acquired quality for intellectual assimilation.


Here, the President and Vice President must demonstrate their ability to intellectually differentiate, categorize, catalog and then cognitively assimilate distinctively and accurately, all information, data and input, in such a way that executive level decisions are made with the highest degree of fault tolerance and congruency of rational and/or logical stability such that the “highest and best use” of national resources results as the ultimate outcome of their thought process and/or decision.

Obama, Biden and McCain have demonstrated Presidential Aptitude. Palin, has not.

Word: Capacity
Function: Noun
Definition: The power to learn; mental ability; innate potential; development, or accomplishment; faculty.


In this very key dimension, the President and Vice President must demonstrate their ability for optimum intellectual performance as it relates to developing the depth, breadth, knowledge and understanding of those issues that come before there office. They MUST exhibit an ability to comprehend and interpret all input relevant to their respective role(s), such that there decision making process is sound and beneficial for the national best interest. The candidate(s) MUST demonstrate a proven capacity for the strategic command of the issues in order to effectively work with subordinates and or adversaries for the express purpose of securing the nations best interest. The candidate(s) MUST have something in their background that enables an intellectual and cognitive structure for the proper building of conceptual ideas and/or solutions to complex problem solving again, for the benefit of the national best interest.

Obama, Biden and McCain have demonstrated Presidential Capacity. Palin, has most definitely not. Not by a mile on this one.

Word: Appropriateness
Function: Adjective/Verb
Definition: The state or quality of being peculiarly fit or suitable for a particular purpose and/or occasion.


In this final dimension, the Presidential and Vice Presidential candidate must demonstrate national and international executive level brio, awareness and thorough understanding of their role, such that their public appearance warrants confidence among the electorate. They must demonstrate this in such a way that coherently wraps their clear competency, capacity and aptitude into a singularly and easily recognizable public persona, appropriate for the office they seek. The Presidential and Vice Presidential candidate must also exhibit a supreme level of diplomatic capacity and be in full command and control of his/her own thoughts, opinions, ideas, ideological concepts and be fully aware of the legal authority given to them under the Constitution for the express purpose of executing their duties as either President or Vice President. The must demonstrate knowledge of the office of the President or Vice President, that is beyond questioning even by that part of the electorate that does not support their ideological position(s).

Obama, Biden and McCain have demonstrated Presidential Appropriateness. Sarah Palin, in this regard, is not even in contention. She’s nowhere to be found in this category.



Quote:
Originally Posted by JMak View Post
Your "model" here ignores probably the most critical component of an individual's candidacy...their political views.
The model is robust, clear, relevant and irrefutably sound. It leaves nothing out of the equation. Why? Because the model is objective and not subjective. It balances all of the attributes that make a rock solid candidate for President and/or Vice President. The model is not partisan or bias. It tests the fundamental building blocks of good sound executive leadership.

The candidate(s) political views are not left out in any way shape or form. They are in fact embedded in every single dimension. But, you can’t see it, unless you read it. The phrase: for the benefit of the national best interest include ALL political views. Because if there are ANY political views that do not meet that test, then they are not political views that the nation should subscribe to.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JMak View Post
…Yeah, who cares if he was lying, dissembling, or otherwise fabricating information...Again, no matter that he lied, dissembled, or otherwise fabricated information…At least she wasn't making up crap out of whole cloth.
So, Biden was the one skirting issues, not answering directly, not responding to rebuttal and making things up out of ‘whole cloth” as you put it.

Well, you can only prove that by posting the lies the Biden told. Second, Palin lied about:

Obama’s voting record on taxes
Obama’s stance taken before the war in Iraq
Obama’s statements about meeting without preconditions
Obama’s stance (which is on his website!) about the use of clean coal technologies
Biden’s statements about the use of clean coal technologies
Biden’s statements about the war in Iraq, before the authorization vote
Obama’s tax plan and how it would kill jobs
Obama’s tax plan and who benefits
McCain’s tax plan and who does not benefit
McCain’s vote to not raise taxes (she lied by never responding to rebuttal after making a wild claim!)
Palin’s statement on the percentage of U.S. oil reserves and the impact on U.S. energy from abroad
Obama’s and Biden’s vote on funding the troops in Iraq


What did Biden lie about?


Quote:
Originally Posted by JMak View Post
I guess you prefer simply ignoring the question rather than someone clearly indicating that they would not address the question.
When I used to work for someone else, I had to go through something called a job interview. Maybe you are familiar with those, too. If at any time during said job interview, I had told the interview that I was not going to answer the question they put forth and then gave an answer that was off-topic and non-relevant, I would have politely asked to leave the hiring managers office.

So, is it your contention that Palin be allowed to basically tell the American Public what she will and will not answer? Because, she NEVER address the question put to her and she was doing that all night long.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JMak View Post
Ya think? Did anyone expect Palin to have total command of the issues, particularly in foreign policy…
Yes. Is she not running for Vice President of the United States of America? Biden had complete control of the facts, why does Palin get off the hook so easily?


Quote:
Originally Posted by JMak View Post
Depth of knowledge? Being 2000% off in comparing the costs of combat in Iraq with the costs in Afghanistan does not reflect depth of knowledge.
FACT CHECK:

Cost of war in Iraq Day: $341,400,000.00
Cost of war in Iraq MoM: $10,242,000,000.00
Cost of war in Iraq YoY: $559,381,728,195.99
Cost of war in Iraq 1Wk: $2,560,500,000.00
Cost of war in Iraq 3Wk: $7,681,500,000.00

Cost of war in Afg Day: $273,972.00
Cost of war in Afg MoM: $8,219,178.00
Cost of war in Afg YoY: $98,630,136.00
Cost of war in Afg Tot: $591,780,821.00

Afg/Iraq Differential: 12,980.31% More than we are spending in Afghanistan.

Source: National Priorities Project.

Biden said we spend more in 3 weeks in Iraq, than we have in the entire war in Afghanistan and he was spot on accurate. That's 13 times what we spend in the "forgotten war."

You’ve just been Fact Checked.
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Old 10-03-08, 08:07 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Thread Starter Re: Debate Victory? (or) The Gibson/Couric Trigger?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JMak View Post
There you go, again. Her supposed incoherence is merely a function of your fundamental distaste for her and the GOP ticket. Why is that so hard to admit?
I can't believe that anyone would even faint to pretend that Palin was coherent or substantive given the vast amount of side-stepping and dancing she did all night.

She was incoherent because she was not in command of the facts, she lacked depth because she could never reply to rebuttal without looking down at her prepared cue card to locate the nearest exit (from the original question) and entry into a memorized item that had little to nothing to do with the direct question.

Everybody saw that last night, except those that have adorned the blinders of: say it as many times as you can and it will spontaneously become the truth. Listen to her prose. Listen to her use of the predicate and the clause (the two primary foundations of English conversational speech), listen to the inflection she used in her verbs and adjectives – these things tell you that she was not speaking from things she knew to any depth.

There was little to no transitional phraseology used by Palin. I mean just listen to this overwhelmingly jumbled use of mixed prose, incomplete injunctions, misplaced pronouns and incoherent clauses with no direct pointer to anything that properly sets them up they way you would expect for someone speaking solid English. These are telling signs that somebody is playing memory games. She did this all night long:

YouTube - Vice Presidential Debate [Sarah Palin vs. Joe Biden] 10/02/08 (Part 4)


So, let’s not address the direct rebuttal – let’s just move away from the central question of how we solve the Mortgage Crisis, to a memory item about Energy Plans? This had nothing to do with Energy. This was about the Mortgage Crisis. And, she even blew her Energy memory item. She then goes on to stumble through a direct question regarding Energy (finally) and if you listen to her prose –vs- the prose used by Biden, anyone can cleary see that she really had no clue about “Energy”, other than her memorized items. She does not even understand what causes global warming.

Biden then comes in and lays down the facts on what the causes are and then he strings his prose (predicates and clauses) like somebody who actually has a grip on the subject. He moves from the U.S. all the way to China in explaining the problem and how to solve it.

Palin then comes back with “drill baby drill” and then goes into a “memory lie” (I’m using that as a noun at this point) about what Biden said regarding China’s use of what should be our new energy technology to reduce green house emissions. Palin then goes on to talk about how “tolerant” she is on same sex issues? Who died and made her dictator? How can she even begin to fix her mouth to use the term “tolerant”. That was a rather condescending way to put things, IMO.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JMak View Post
Right after you and your Democrats admit that Obama is similarly not suited for the Presidency.
I think I’ve told you that I’m neither a Democrat nor am I a Republican – about a thousand times by now. However, here is a glaring differential on Obama. You can easily distinguish his prose from Palin’s and you can easily discover that he’s got full command of the subject matter through the distinct use of his predicates and clauses:

YouTube - 3 of 11 - Obama / McCain Presidential Debate from Mississippi - 9/26/08


Here (Obama) is a candidate demonstrating competency through capacity, aptitude and appropriateness.

McCain spews the Reaganomics Theory that cutting business taxes keeps American companies here at home. Yet, he does not tell you that since 2000, there have been more American Business relocations overseas than in any time in American History! So, if Bush’s tax cuts were working, there would not have been so many defections to foreign countries. So, McCain argues against himself and lies about the exporting of American jobs all at the same time.

Obama, (as opposed to Palin), shoots back at McCain and corrects him on several items of interest about his plan and then goes on in rebuttal to discuss why McCain was dead wrong in his comments. Obama then wraps up his comments by showing why Trickle Clown is such a failure. McCain then talks about wasteful earmark spending. Obama, then counters by reminding people that McCain’s tax plan would put more than $4 billion into the pockets in the oil industry. McCain then lies about Obama voting to tax people under/at $42,000.00.

McCain continues to spew lies – which he did all night on domestic issues and Obama does a very solid job of showing command and control of the issues in direct questioning and rebuttal. So, if Obama did not show that he was suited, then McCain really showed that he was not suited, given Obama’s total command of the issues.




Quote:
Originally Posted by JMak View Post
Why do you still support someone who imminently unqualified for president, let alone VP?

See, I can play this game, too.
The difference is that all you are doing here is playing games. I’m putting forth direct evidence showing Palin’s unfitness for the office and direct evidence of Obama’s total command of the issues and exactly where McCain has lied to cover-up his record of being a deregulator. So, you keep right on playing games, and I’ll be right here to expose them.




Quote:
Originally Posted by JMak View Post
Are you serious? You think we'll buy this nonsense that your vigorous support for Obama/Biden will simply disappear if such is presented to you?
Yep. Put forth something that is in the public domain as I am doing right now, to prove the Palin is ready for the role of VP and I will switch my vote right here on debatepolitics.

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Old 10-03-08, 08:21 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Thread Starter Re: Debate Victory? (or) The Gibson/Couric Trigger?

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Originally Posted by JMak View Post
Or his oft-repeated schtick about combat spending in Iraq and Afghanistan. Which necessarily means that last night was not simply a mistake but a deliberate intention to deceive, aka, lying.
Just I case you missed it:

“FACT CHECK:

Cost of war in Iraq Day: $341,400,000.00
Cost of war in Iraq MoM: $10,242,000,000.00
Cost of war in Iraq YoY: $559,381,728,195.99
Cost of war in Iraq 1Wk: $2,560,500,000.00
Cost of war in Iraq 3Wk: $7,681,500,000.00

Cost of war in Afg Day: $273,972.00
Cost of war in Afg MoM: $8,219,178.00
Cost of war in Afg YoY: $98,630,136.00
Cost of war in Afg Tot: $591,780,821.00

Afg/Iraq Differential: 12,980.31% More than we are spending in Afghanistan.

Source: National Priorities Project.

Biden said we spend more in 3 weeks in Iraq, than we have in the entire war in Afghanistan and he was spot on accurate. That's 13 times what we spend in the "forgotten war." “



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Old 10-03-08, 08:43 PM   #15 (permalink)
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idea Re: Debate Victory? (or) The Gibson/Couric Trigger?

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Originally Posted by Pilots For 911 Truth View Post
Biden said we spend more in 3 weeks in Iraq,
...than we have in the entire war in Afghanistan and
......he was spot on accurate.

That's
13 times what we spend in the "forgotten war."

You’ve just been Fact Checked.
... 8... 9... 10!

That's a knockout!
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Old 10-03-08, 08:56 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Thread Starter Re: Debate Victory? (or) The Gibson/Couric Trigger?

13 Times What We Spend In Afghanistan
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Old 10-03-08, 09:02 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Thread Starter Re: Debate Victory? (or) The Gibson/Couric Trigger?

I just love this one. Some of these guys out there on the net are really good at capturing the essence of things:

The Biden-Palin Vice Presidential Debate in Ten Easy Minutes


Classic!

Did you see how many times Palin simply avoided the rebuttal? I call that the Gibson/Couric Trigger. Throw it at her and she'll blow up every single time.

Send the maverick to the White House!

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Old 10-03-08, 09:07 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Thread Starter Re: Debate Victory? (or) The Gibson/Couric Trigger?

I just watched it again and I hit the floor! It actually gets better the more you watch it!

Your plan is a white flag in Iraq....! (oooooh, yep!)

Nuc-a-ler weaponry would be the be all end all....! (oh, yeah!)

Just every day clueless class Americans running the White House....! (Uuuuj)

Everybody gets extra credit for showing up tonight!

You can't make this stuff up folks.

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Old 10-03-08, 09:10 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Thread Starter Re: Debate Victory? (or) The Gibson/Couric Trigger?

Yeah, let's talk about the maverick....maverick he's NOT!
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Old 10-03-08, 09:15 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Re: Debate Victory? (or) The Gibson/Couric Trigger?

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Folks, it was like watching two separate debates, was it not?
Indeed.


Quote:
The country saw Biden as being not just Vice Presidential, but in fact, Presidential - in some ways, even more Presidential than either Obama or McCain. Biden demonstrated a level of command and control of the issues (both foreign and domestic) that I have not yet seen come from either Obama and/or McCain! Everybody understands fully now, that if Biden has to step in, he's ready on day one.
Yep, Biden nailed it. He was superb!

Great insights, Pilot. As always, it's a pleasure to read your well thought out posts

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