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Ron Paul's ideas no longer fringe

I agree.

It's tough to make political hay by telling people the truth they don't want to hear.

That's the problem in a nutshell. We have 300 million people, most of whom are living in a delusional state. Denial is the artform of the mind, and money comes from a magical bottomless well.:roll:
 
Except I did not say you did. Learn to read properly. will ya?

Not directly but it was implied, otherwise why would you say that?




I'm not going to argue with you about what should be given copyrights or patent. Frankly, I'm not a lawyer and aren't qualified to do so. Neither are you, I believe. And I see no relevance to the point that copyright law exists. If that is the reason for the rise of the monopolies, it still exist, and it means the free market solution envisioned by Ron Paul is a pipe dream.

It doesn't matter what Ron Paul thinks and I don't have to be a lawyer to understand copyright law.

It causes the rise of some monopolies, as that is what it grants.

That's your definition. Not the Law's definition.

The law defines it as copyright infringement and not theft.

You can not steal non physical "things", that is impossible.


He pointed out that some of them took the privileges for themselves through gun and violence. Your counter arguement was: Is violence legal? So you use your subjective judgement about when a government should interfere or not; when the interference is part of the "free market" or not. I do have problems following a subjective arguement like that.

It doesn't answer the question though, are businesses legally allowed to commit violence against people who have not hurt them?

No subjectivity at all.

Because the "free market" solution to have no railroad. So it's really "no market".

Color me surprised, I thought that a multitude of markets existed before railroads.
I guess not. :doh

Yours is the kind of response that make the whole Libertarian free-market idea sounds like bull****. If the land are not granted, where to build it? Who's going to take that kind of risk without some promise of returns? What about the fact that the agreement was made by a popular government? It's easy to say "if you want it, build it yourself". But what happens when nothing get built?

If there is demand for a railroad they can gather investors to build it, like other private ventures do.

It doesn't matter if it is popular or not, does that make it right?
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum]Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]


Nothing happens if it doesn't get built, it doesn't mean it should be built.
Why should it be built?

:doh I hate it when I have to give logic lessons.

Let's see how this example works: I like dark chocolate (market have a tendency to consolidate), I plan to buy 3 bars at the shop (this many will grow to control a certain size of the market). The shop has a discount and if I buy 3, they give 1 free (some government policy can be said to encourage monopolies). Since I buy 3 bars and received the discount (there are more monopolies with the help of the government than there might have been otherwise), so we must conclude that I don't like chocolate and only buy them because of the discount? :roll:

That is not what I said at all and I have refuted the examples of monopolization given.

Can you please show me where a monopoly has been established without government privilege?

Just 1 example, if markets have a tendency to consolidate and create monopolies, you should have no problem giving me an example of 1 business becoming one, without government privilege or subsidy.
 
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Not directly but it was implied, otherwise why would you say that?

It's called "asking you to declare yourself". :roll:


It doesn't matter what Ron Paul thinks and I don't have to be a lawyer to understand copyright law.

It causes the rise of some monopolies, as that is what it grants.

Unless you read law literature for a past time, I beg to differ.


The law defines it as copyright infringement and not theft.

You can not steal non physical "things", that is impossible.

My guess is you don't read law literature for a past time.

[ame=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&q=intellectual+property+theft+law&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g10]intellectual property theft law - Google Search[/ame]


It doesn't answer the question though, are businesses legally allowed to commit violence against people who have not hurt them?

No subjectivity at all.

:doh Here we go again. I'll assume you genuinely don't know the implications of you own arguement and answer this one last time.

And the answer is, and was, "legal" implies that there be a body to keep the law - the government? That's government interference. But you said before government interference is what gave rise to monopolies. So when should the government interfere and when not? And no, I don't want to know your subjective answer.


Color me surprised, I thought that a multitude of markets existed before railroads.
I guess not. :doh

You guess wrong. Big surpirse there.

If there is demand for a railroad they can gather investors to build it, like other private ventures do.

Demand for railroad doesn't mean profit from railroad.

It doesn't matter if it is popular or not, does that make it right?
Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So a popular government is fallacy now? :rofl

Nothing happens if it doesn't get built, it doesn't mean it should be built.
Why should it be built?

Your response speak for itself, so I don't need to add anything.


That is not what I said at all and I have refuted the examples of monopolization given.

You refuted nothing. None of your arguement make sense absent your own subjective judgement. But I'm not surprised you don't see that.

Can you please show me where a monopoly has been established without government privilege?

Just 1 example, if markets have a tendency to consolidate and create monopolies, you should have no problem giving me an example of 1 business becoming one, without government privilege or subsidy.

"Government Privilege" as defined by you? So you can be the judge and the jury? :roll: You do set yourself up pretty high, don't you?

Anyway, if you are objective enough, you can take a look at the history of De Beers, or look at the state of the steel or mining industry. These markets are mostly controlled by a few companies. A great example of "free market" monopoly is Google itself, but of course, Google deals with intellectual property, so you are going to say it's got "government privileges". There are plenty more examples of industry that form monopoly/oligopoly - rail network, broadband network etc. because of the advantages that come of being big, but the fact that you would need to ask for it shows that you are already sold on the libertarian ideas and blind to the facts.
 
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It's called "asking you to declare yourself".

It was implied, but whatever.


Unless you read law literature for a past time, I beg to differ.

I do read it sometimes, there is no reason for someone to be a lawyer to understand the law.

Do you have to consult a lawyer to understand that murdering someone is illegal?

My guess is you don't read law literature for a past time.

intellectual property theft law - Google Search

piracy-is-not-theft.png


Reification (fallacy) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I guess the law is illogical.

:doh Here we go again. I'll assume you genuinely don't know the implications of you own arguement and answer this one last time.

And the answer is, and was, "legal" implies that there be a body to keep the law - the government? That's government interference. But you said before government interference is what gave rise to monopolies. So when should the government interfere and when not? And no, I don't want to know your subjective answer.

That does it is interference at all.

If one company or business is given privileged or subsidy over another, that is interference.
When a group of companies is given privilege or subsidy over the body of people, that is interference.

"A free market requires protection of property rights, but no regulation, no subsidization, no single monetary system, and no governmental monopolies. It is the opposite of a controlled market, where the government regulates prices or how property is used."
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_markets]Free market - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

A big difference from what your stating.

You guess wrong. Big surpirse there.

Sarcasm, you stated that if there are no railroads there is no market.

You are obviously wrong.

Demand for railroad doesn't mean profit from railroad.

There is nothing that says a company deserves a profit.
That is not an excuse to build a railroad with public funds.

So a popular government is fallacy now? :rofl

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule]Appeal to ridicule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]


Just because it is popular, does it make it right?

Your response speak for itself, so I don't need to add anything.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_ridicule]Appeal to ridicule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]


You refuted nothing. None of your arguement make sense absent your own subjective judgement. But I'm not surprised you don't see that.

I have shown that all of those companies described as monopolies, got their monopoly power from government privilege.

Care to show how they didn't?


"Government Privilege" as defined by you? So you can be the judge and the jury? :roll: You do set yourself up pretty high, don't you?

No I use the definition provided by Wikipedia, it is adequate enough.


Anyway, if you are objective enough, you can take a look at the history of De Beers, or look at the state of the steel or mining industry. These markets are mostly controlled by a few companies. A great example of "free market" monopoly is Google itself, but of course, Google deals with intellectual property, so you are going to say it's got "government privileges". There are plenty more examples of industry that form monopoly/oligopoly - rail network, broadband network etc. because of the advantages that come of being big, but the fact that you would need to ask for it shows that you are already sold on the libertarian ideas and blind to the facts.

It's pretty funny but when you look at companies like DeBeers, you find out that even though they had some control, they couldn't maintain it.
Not only that but they had to go break the law in many circumstances in order to maintain most of it.

Google isn't a monopoly. :confused:

Cable and telephone providers have been granted regional monopolies by the government.

The fact that you can't provide an example of a single long standing monopoly speaks volumes.
 
It was implied, but whatever.

So your reply to a question of fact is "whatever". Again, your response says a lot about you.


I do read it sometimes, there is no reason for someone to be a lawyer to understand the law.

No, but one has to have knowledge of the law to understand the law. You obviously is clueless of them if you can claim that you can only steal physical things, and then say that the Law is illogical because you disagree with it. Do you have any sense at all of your inability to discern fact from your own opinion? You seem to think that your opinion and fact are one and the same, when in fact they are not.

Do you have to consult a lawyer to understand that murdering someone is illegal?

No, but I have to consult a lawyer to know what the Law says about the differences between copyrights and patent and when certain things should be granted what and the precedents. Or maybe I'm just particular about not speaking out of my ass, unlike you.



Or maybe you ought to read the denifition of that fallacy again.


That does it is interference at all.

:confused:

If one company or business is given privileged or subsidy over another, that is interference.
When a group of companies is given privilege or subsidy over the body of people, that is interference.

"A free market requires protection of property rights, but no regulation, no subsidization, no single monetary system, and no governmental monopolies. It is the opposite of a controlled market, where the government regulates prices or how property is used."
Free market - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A big difference from what your stating.

What did I state? Let's see you put in into your own words so we know if you actually got the point in the first place.

"Protection of property rights" need not exclude violence. And that's not all you asked of government if you read your previous post.


Harry Guerrilla said:
That is not free market in any sense, free markets run on legal frameworks and not on complete anarchy.

The government exists to protect life and liberty of all people not just the wallets of corporations and businesses.


Basically, you are making up what a "free market" is as you along. :roll:


Sarcasm, you stated that if there are no railroads there is no market.

You are obviously wrong.

I said 'it's really "no market"', as oppose to "free market". Meaning that since the market for railway would not exist under "free market" solution, it's really more accurate to call it "no market" solution. Forgive me for not sticking to simple language so you could understand.




There is nothing that says a company deserves a profit.
That is not an excuse to build a railroad with public funds.

No they don't have a right to profit, but it's profit that motivate firms to engage in business. Why am I having to explain this in a discussion about "free market"? :confused: It should be common knowledge and easily deduced.

Appeal to ridicule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Just because it is popular, does it make it right?

Are you just going to throw out names of fallacy in place of actual arguement? If I made a fallacy, point out how it is a fallacy. That you didn't just make it seem like a cope out on your part.

And while populism doesn't make it right, popular government is part and parcel of this country, and it's a legitimate way to make decisions. Not a fallacy as you suggest. If instead of throwing out all these names of fallacy you keep a list of, you had explain your arguement properly like an intelligent person would have, you wouldn't have been met with ridicule.



Here we go again. :roll:



I have shown that all of those companies described as monopolies, got their monopoly power from government privilege.

Care to show how they didn't?[/

No. You didn't. All you did was argue against first copyright, then against the collarboration between the big firms, and then against the idea of firms using violence to get their own ends without the government. And you kept shifting the goal post as you go along, so that the aguement fits whatever's in your head instead of objective facts.

And Pete made the point already about these firms being opportunistics and working with other firms to control the market, I don't see why I have to go over the whole thing again so you can act clueless all over again.





No I use the definition provided by Wikipedia, it is adequate enough.

Except you haven't done so with regards to "free market", and there's no definion for "government privileges" in the wiki quote. So will you please read properly before you write your replies?



It's pretty funny but when you look at companies like DeBeers, you find out that even though they had some control, they couldn't maintain it.
Not only that but they had to go break the law in many circumstances in order to maintain most of it.

Google isn't a monopoly. :confused:

Cable and telephone providers have been granted regional monopolies by the government.

The fact that you can't provide an example of a single long standing monopoly speaks volumes.

I see you have moved the goal post from "monoploies" to "long standing monopoly". And if a period of nearly a hundred years or more is not "long lasting", I don't know what the heck is.

Google have the largest share of english searches, and firms and websites go out of their way to conform to google's methods and standards, we can split hair about the term "monopoly", but google is a monopoly in all the sense that matters.

And you are wrong about cable and phone network. There are very few instances where a country restrict other firms from setting up infrastructures to compete with existing ones. Most would welcome it given the amount of investment. But there are simply very few firms that have the capital to invest in such infrastructure, and those that set up first tend to have a customer base and knowledge that give them natural advantages, so they tend to control the market.
 
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So your reply to a question of fact is "whatever". Again, your response says a lot about you.

I'm trying to move past your snips.



No, but one has to have knowledge of the law to understand the law. You obviously is clueless of them if you can claim that you can only steal physical things, and then say that the Law is illogical because you disagree with it. Do you have any sense at all of your inability to discern fact from your own opinion? You seem to think that your opinion and fact are one and the same, when in fact they are not.



No, but I have to consult a lawyer to know what the Law says about the differences between copyrights and patent and when certain things should be granted what and the precedents. Or maybe I'm just particular about not speaking out of my ass, unlike you.

"Courts have distinguished between copyright infringement and theft, holding, for instance, in the United States Supreme Court case Dowling v. United States (1985) that bootleg phonorecords did not (for the purpose of the case) constitute stolen property, and writing:"

"interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud. The Copyright Act even employs a separate term of art to define one who misappropriates a copyright: ... 'an infringer of the copyright.' ..."

"The infringer invades a statutorily defined province guaranteed to the copyright holder alone. But he does not assume physical control over the copyright; nor does he wholly deprive its owner of its use. While one may colloquially link infringement with some general notion of wrongful appropriation, infringement plainly implicates a more complex set of property interests than does run-of-the-mill theft, conversion, or fraud.
—Dowling v. United States , 473 U.S. 207, pp. 217–218
"

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement]Copyright infringement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

You were saying?



Or maybe you ought to read the denifition of that fallacy again.

You are ascribing theft to something that can not be stolen.

Idea's that are copywritten are abstracts and you are applying a concrete concept to this.




What did I state? Let's see you put in into your own words so we know if you actually got the point in the first place.

"Protection of property rights" need not exclude violence. And that's not all you asked of government if you read your previous post.

No, I have repeatedly said that government should not provide subsidy to businesses and they should not accord privileges to businesses.

It's a pretty simple concept, treat everyone the same.



Basically, you are making up what a "free market" is as you along. :roll:

Not at all, it flows right from my original statements.

I said 'it's really "no market"', as oppose to "free market". Meaning that since the market for railway would not exist under "free market" solution, it's really more accurate to call it "no market" solution. Forgive me for not sticking to simple language so you could understand.

Your jumping to conclusions and making assumptions, that a railroad wouldn't develop otherwise.

It doesn't make it no market.

No they don't have a right to profit, but it's profit that motivate firms to engage in business. Why am I having to explain this in a discussion about "free market"? :confused: It should be common knowledge and easily deduced.

Of course it does and how do you know there is no profit?


Are you just going to throw out names of fallacy in place of actual arguement? If I made a fallacy, point out how it is a fallacy. That you didn't just make it seem like a cope out on your part.

And while populism doesn't make it right, popular government is part and parcel of this country, and it's a legitimate way to make decisions. Not a fallacy as you suggest. If instead of throwing out all these names of fallacy you keep a list of, you had explain your arguement properly like an intelligent person would have, you wouldn't have been met with ridicule.


Here we go again. :roll:

Don't be a smart ass with your "logic" example and then don't run around mocking people to avoid addressing the questions.

It is a fallacy to say that, because something is popular it is right.

You know the United States was not founded as a democracy, don't you?

No. You didn't. All you did was argue against first copyright, then against the collarboration between the big firms, and then against the idea of firms using violence to get their own ends without the government. And you kept shifting the goal post as you go along, so that the aguement fits whatever's in your head instead of objective facts.

And Pete made the point already about these firms being opportunistics and working with other firms to control the market, I don't see why I have to go over the whole thing again so you can act clueless all over again.

A business using violence and not getting prosecuted, is according a privilege.
A business receiving a subsidy when all the others are not is in a privilege position.

Do not see how this can cause bigness with firms?

Except you haven't done so with regards to "free market", and there's no definion for "government privileges" in the wiki quote. So will you please read properly before you write your replies?

"A privilege—etymologically "private law" or law relating to a specific individual—is a special entitlement or immunity granted by a government or other authority to a restricted group, either by birth or on a conditional basis."

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privilege]Privilege - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

I see you have moved the goal post from "monoploies" to "long standing monopoly". And if a period of nearly a hundred years or more is not "long lasting", I don't know what the heck is.

DeBeers wasn't a monopoly as they lost market share from competition.

There cartel, was more like a oligopoly but it still lost market share to competition out side it's cartel.

Google have the largest share of english searches, and firms and websites go out of their way to conform to google's methods and standards, we can split hair about the term "monopoly", but google is a monopoly in all the sense that matters.

Not true, yahoo,ask, etc are viable competitive search engines.
Google merely has the largest market share but does not make it a monopoly.

And you are wrong about cable and phone network. There are very few instances where a country restrict other firms from setting up infrastructures to compete with existing ones. Most would welcome it given the amount of investment. But there are simply very few firms that have the capital to invest in such infrastructure, and those that set up first tend to have a customer base and knowledge that give them natural advantages, so they tend to control the market.

Counties can name one single provider of cable television service to their area.

"Many cable systems operate as local monopolies in the United States, as only one cable company typically receives the right to serve a region as a result of a franchise agreement with a local government. For some franchises the agreement is explicitly exclusive; for others the local authority retains the right to franchise overbuilders but does not do so."

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_television_in_the_United_States]Cable television in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
 
I'm trying to move past your snips.

Or avoid dealing with the evidence.

"Courts have distinguished between copyright infringement and theft, holding, for instance, in the United States Supreme Court case Dowling v. United States (1985) that bootleg phonorecords did not (for the purpose of the case) constitute stolen property, and writing:"

"interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud. The Copyright Act even employs a separate term of art to define one who misappropriates a copyright: ... 'an infringer of the copyright.' ..."

"The infringer invades a statutorily defined province guaranteed to the copyright holder alone. But he does not assume physical control over the copyright; nor does he wholly deprive its owner of its use. While one may colloquially link infringement with some general notion of wrongful appropriation, infringement plainly implicates a more complex set of property interests than does run-of-the-mill theft, conversion, or fraud.
—Dowling v. United States , 473 U.S. 207, pp. 217–218
"

Copyright infringement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You were saying?

I was saying you were wrong, and I say it again: you are wrong.

The quote you left out:

wiki article said:
"A British Government's report, Digital Britain, characterizes online piracy as a form of theft: "Unlawful downloading or uploading, whether via peer-to-peer sites or other means, is effectively a civil form of theft."[57]"

This not to mention the fact that "intellectual property theft" is a term used often in the Law. And even if we don't talk about intellectual property, there's still identity theft. In either case, something non-physical is stolen so that the thief could derive economic benefits from it.



You are ascribing theft to something that can not be stolen.

Idea's that are copywritten are abstracts and you are applying a concrete concept to this.

:doh These are your definitions. How many times does that have to be repeated? The Law and most people who accept the use of "intellectual property theft" and "identity theft" obviously disagree, and yet you persist in thinking that your opinion is fact.



No, I have repeatedly said that government should not provide subsidy to businesses and they should not accord privileges to businesses.

It's a pretty simple concept, treat everyone the same.

Even with your words quoted for you, you still refuse to acknowledge what you said. And now you come up with a new one. "Treat everyone the same" is a general concept, it gives one no idea of the government's role and what a "free market" is, so it's exactly as I said before, you are just making things up as you go along.


Not at all, it flows right from my original statements.

Show us step by step how it flows out of your "original statement". All I see is an unsuccessful attempt to cover up the fact that you didn't know what you were talking about.


Your jumping to conclusions and making assumptions, that a railroad wouldn't develop otherwise.

It doesn't make it no market.

Then why don't you provide us with a scenario where a railway would be built without giving the company the land to build it on, other than to say "If there is demand for a railroad they can gather investors to build it" which is as good as no solution at all.


Of course it does and how do you know there is no profit?

I don't know, which is why I said "Demand for railroad doesn't mean profit from railroad." :doh



Don't be a smart ass with your "logic" example and then don't run around mocking people to avoid addressing the questions.

It is a fallacy to say that, because something is popular it is right.

You know the United States was not founded as a democracy, don't you?

Then don't be a smart ass about throwing your "fallacy" around without any backing up.

I answered all the questions, if only you care to read properly:

nonpareil said:
And while populism doesn't make it right,...

Accept I wasn't talking about populism, but "popular government", two very different concepts.

And no I don't know that the United States of America was not founded as a Democratic Republic when the founders adopted the constitution in 1787. Do you have an alternative history too?


A business using violence and not getting prosecuted, is according a privilege.
A business receiving a subsidy when all the others are not is in a privilege position.

Do not see how this can cause bigness with firms?

Don't you see the contradiction/narcissism of your arguements? Firms get "privileges" when government don't interfere, and they can get "privileges" when the government do interfere. And what is the rule we can use to objective judge this? So far nothing other than your opinion.

"A privilege—etymologically "private law" or law relating to a specific individual—is a special entitlement or immunity granted by a government or other authority to a restricted group, either by birth or on a conditional basis."

Privilege - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And how does that translate into practical objective rules for judging when a firm have "government privileges"?


DeBeers wasn't a monopoly as they lost market share from competition.

There cartel, was more like a oligopoly but it still lost market share to competition out side it's cartel.

It dumped prices and controlled most of the market for diamond in the world. And I did say that oligopoly is a more frequent occurrence, it doesn't negate the fact that "free market" is a pipe dream.


Not true, yahoo,ask, etc are viable competitive search engines.
Google merely has the largest market share but does not make it a monopoly.

:roll: First you asked for examples, then you asked for "long standing" examples, when met with the fact that these companies control a large share of the market (they have great control over either suppliers' output or market prices), contrary to "free market", you now want to restrict what the meaning of a "monopoly" is, to what? A 100% market share? See what I mean about shifting the goal post?


Counties can name one single provider of cable television service to their area.

"Many cable systems operate as local monopolies in the United States, as only one cable company typically receives the right to serve a region as a result of a franchise agreement with a local government. For some franchises the agreement is explicitly exclusive; for others the local authority retains the right to franchise overbuilders but does not do so."

Cable television in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And the succeeding sentences say this:

wikiarticle said:
Overbuilders in the US have traditionally had severe difficulty in financial and market penetration numbers, compared to their incumbent brothers. therefore they are the exception, not the norm in the United States; though overbuilders have had successes in the MDU market, in which relationships are established with landlords, often with contracts and exclusivity agreements for the buildings, sometimes to the anger of tenants. In some areas that is changing as competition has been allowed to enter the market, including, in some cases, city run cable systems.

Selective quoting much?

We didn't say that government's action never lead to monopolies/oligopoly, but that there are features of the market that encourage the formation of such large firms.

And why stick to only the US, look at Asia, Africa or even Europe with the likes of Vodafone, T-Mobile etc.
 
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Yeah, I'm not seeing how his ideas are no longer fringe.

It was never his GENERALIZED view points that were considered fringe.

Decreasing the size of government is a principle of Ron Paul, that's not fringe. Completely axing the Department of Education is an idea of his, its fringe.

Having a non-interventionalist philosophy isn't that fringe and is a principle of his. Pulling back our men and women from almost every military base we have world wide and rather immedietely drawing down in Iraq and Afghanistan is a bit more fringe.

Having a fiscally responsible government isn't that fringe. Believing we need to go into a modernized version of the gold standard is.

Lowering taxes isn't a fringe thought. Completely getting rid of the income tax and the IRS and replacing it with nothing is fringe.

Fringe does not make it bad, just that its not exactly main stream. Many of Ron Pauls generaly ideological foundations are becoming more mainstream within conservatism and becoming more focused upon. However, many of his ideas on how to persue those principles and inact them is where the "fringe" mentality and belief comes into play. Its also been my biggest gripe with Ron Paul. In a generalize way his message is a great one and one I think can win. The problem is he either is FAR from a pragmatic realist OR has no ability to explain things simply and succinctly so that the average voter can understand the extreme things he's saying is not an immediete goal but a potential end point.

You articulated very well why I would vote for a moderate libertarian but never for someone like Ron Paul.
 
That's the problem in a nutshell. We have 300 million people, most of whom are living in a delusional state. Denial is the artform of the mind, and money comes from a magical bottomless well.:roll:

No it doesn't. It grows on trees. Sheesh, aren't you even listening to Obama? :mrgreen:
 
But it is explicitly stated in the Constitution that the responsibility for coining money is that of Congress, not some private corporation that is answerable to no one. The creation of the Fed was an unconstitutional act.

The argument you seek is not whether the Fed is constitutional, but whether or not congress has the authority to dole out (currency) responsibility.
 
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